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Andrew Lauman
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Church and State
November 17, 2004 - 01:23 AM
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Should faith stay out of Government?
If someone, like Bush, is religious, what should he do about his beliefs?
Do think secularism is a faith? Is this not a religion? If it isn't why not?
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Brian
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Re: Church and State
November 17, 2004 - 07:06 AM
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Basically, religion should be separate from government, yes. I have no problem at all with, and encourage, officials that have a good religious/spiritual center that guides their judgements and decisions. Much beyond that I believe is dangerous and will detract from the true meaning of most religions...Christianity especially since it is a very personal religion and relationship with Jesus.
No I don't think secularism is a faith. I haven't given it too much thought though either. To me a secular government is one that isn't directly or indirectly affiliated with any religion in particular or plural. A secular life on the other hand is a different ball game.
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Teresa
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Re: Church and State
November 18, 2004 - 01:24 AM
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Alot has been said about this exact subject on other boards and I believe it is a very interesting and very heated topic. Perfect example, an Aunt of mine and I disagree on what role the church/religion should play in politics. On one hand you have Pres. George W. Bush, he won the christian vote. He wore his "faith" on his sleeve and right or wrong, the American Voters chose him based on that. Based on that he would be "morally sound", and would make decisions with God instead of just what a normal man might do left to his own devices. That is what happens when the religion card works in your favor.
Lets look at it from the opposite post, John Kerry. John Kerry is a catholic, always has been. But due to his views on a woman having her own choice, the Roman Catholic Church instructed it's followers not to condone such a person. This is not what catholics repersented and they could not support his political endeavors. That is what happens when religion works against you. Was John Kerry any less faithful to God? I cannot say, but I also do not know George Bush personally. All I know is that these are two prime differing examples of what happens when religion is involved.
Now for the actual question,should it be? It depends, I am a Christian, but I also believe that God gave me a brain to use it. I realize there are life decisions to be made that will benefit science, technology or just humanity in general that may be outside of my comfort zone. I think on a personal level you pray the best is done, but in the end, you have to do what is best for everyone; for life; for our children, grandchildren etc. I definitely believe that any elected official has their right to a spiritual belief, them being elected does not change that. But I do not want someone to stand up there and tell me what is right or wrong. I do not want someone whom I have never met and does not know my situation to tell me what I should or should not believe when this same person told me there were WMD. I want someone who will say, "This is what America needs, this is what we must have as a nation to survive. I realize that some may have problems with it, I pray you find your peace..but as a nation we must move forward." I think by going back to church vs state, we are backtracking instead of moving forward. I do not think it is religion that causes us to backtrack, but I believe when it takes precedence over science, education, and social reform because of ONE individuals beliefs that this should be done..then it is wrong.
Teresa
www.geocities.com/umhbtexasdem@sbcglobal.net
FREEDOM IS THE SOUND OF OPINIONS CLASHING!
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Udara
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Re: Church and State
November 18, 2004 - 02:07 AM
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My question here is, should mosque be close to the state like what is in Iran??
The same people who condemn such moves agree that church should be close to the state.
Moral values are needed, but they should be cultivated on the minds than forcing them on to the people by the government.
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Andrew Lauman
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Re: Church and State
November 18, 2004 - 06:13 AM
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Great points!
So what do you think of France's law on outlawing religous garments and public prayers?
Should a government have this type of authority?
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Saladin
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Re: Church and State
November 18, 2004 - 06:57 AM
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I like what Udara has said, this is fair:
The ideal in Islam is described in a prophetic narration:"As you are, your rulers will be".
This implies an ideal from of a state in which everyone belives, deeply, that Islam is not a personal relation between man and God, but it is a system that combines spirituality with civilization.
Revolutions, like that of Iran, tend to reverse the equation by enforcing teachings on people who aren't willing really to follow them...
Evolution, instead, implies that individuals should start by spreading the teachings, rationally, through debating and good argumenting...inside their domains of influence: Families, schools, friends...etc...
When the whole society becomes religious, a day will come where the leader will be one of those religious people, with policies that are matching the will of the people, who believe that they should follow the will of God.
It is possible to talk about secularism in the modern western societies, because, as mentioned by my friend in this thread, Christianity is a personal type of spirituality between man and God...but in regions like the Middle East, West Africa, Central Asia, and Southeast Asia, where a considerable percentage of the worlds population live, and believe deeply in Islam as a system combining both the material and the spiritual worlds, and intermingling this life with the afterlife,it is really very difficult to try to convince people of secularism....
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Udara
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Re: Church and State
November 18, 2004 - 07:38 AM
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Thanks aymanelhakea, great hearing from you.
Yet again a conflict arises when we define religious label under one god or several gods. We have to define the religion in a much broader manner.
Since in countries like South Asia where people believe in many gods and some believe in non of them.
Secondly, from what I have seen among the most cases of the regions you have mention, there are lot of factors involving the faith. Lack of education, lack of exposure to the world and etc.
And even irrespectively of all that, the childhood inculcation of faith would psychologically affect the thinking way of people.
So in such conditions secularism may not look pragmatic, but looking at all the religious trends around the governments, I see secularism a better option (may not be best in all cases BUT)
Anyway, all this is JUST my point of view; hope to hear from you all soon!
cheers,
Udara
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Church and State
November 19, 2004 - 03:39 AM
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The government should have whatever power the populacve willingly give it - within certin limits -
Personally I feel that restrictions of dress for what ever reason are restrictions of personal freedom and freedoms of expressions.
But Andrew - I know you would like to see a larger role of church in state policy - what you must reolize is that such a role would threaten the church as much as the state -
Churches ow are allowed to develop their idoelogy without compromise - the kind of compromises that are inevitable in poitics -
ever hear the phrase - polititians are whores? Well would you like to aee your pastures become such politicl whores?
would you like to see them compromise church doctrine on the basis of political realities?
politics by their very nature are a bussiness of compromise and convienient morals - they are a game - I don't religion should play such games - I think this is the failing of both the Catholic Church and the Islamic Clerics.
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Andrew Lauman
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Re: Church and State
November 19, 2004 - 06:12 AM
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Like I have said in other posts, I believe that government can be a place of religious freedom and where the citzens have the freedom to choose truth.
The G12 vision is based upon 7 principles,
Spirit,
Light,
Separation,
Reproduction,
Government,
Multiplication,
Dominion.
in Bogata where the vision has been for awhile, the church is at about 500,000 some people. The president is a Christian and has now become a part of the vision.
What happens with kids that are on drugs, on in gangs or have difficulties in other areas. The parents send them to this church, because the success rate is overwhelmingly high. Crime is decreasing every year, drug dealers are having to find jobs because the kids are getting high on Jesus.
It's not perfect yet, because it is a spiritual war. However, when God invades a society we see freedom. The church doesn't have one divorce. The kids grow up in homes where they are loved and challenged to exceed in school and other activities. It's a culture of excellence.
The business's, incorporate models to help others. It's not about corporate profits or materilism, but about bring profits in to help feed people and house them.
The goverment only acts as a compass for the people. It only legislates bills that will ultimately bring freedom.
When people's hearts aren't changed Luke, then you will never find freedom. Freedom will only come when hearts are changed towards love.
When a government as you say is corrupt and continues to legislate corruption then it will bring oppression.
Obviously it is extremely complicated and you know I don't stand for a lot of what Bush stands for, but when the church is freed to do what it was called to do, it will rise up and bring hope to a dying world.
That's my two cents.
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Andrew Lauman
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Re: Church and State
November 20, 2004 - 01:19 AM
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Forcing, who's forcing?
You don't have to become a part of the church. There are still many secular events.
They come to the church because they want to. They see the results of intimacy of God and choose that life.
The blessing of the Lord makes rich and He adds no sorrow to it.
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Udara
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Re: Church and State
November 20, 2004 - 01:39 AM
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I think Kaiser is talking about Bush policy on gay marriages and other social issues.
Udara
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Udara
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Re: Church and State
November 20, 2004 - 04:05 AM
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http://www.bushwatch.net/lower.htm
Some good reading materials are included in the site, I am sure Brian would bookmark this  http://www.counterpunch.org/stanton05062003.html : This is for Bladerunner
Udara
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ismail
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Religion ans State
November 20, 2004 - 06:30 AM
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chauch and state, well let`s say in other words Religion and State, ofcourse with my considerations and understanding of the privacy of christianty and its own special features that differencaites it from others believs and religions, well if we would like to understand the relation between religion and state as well as if religion could be closed to the state or not, first we have to define and understand what is religion and what is state, in general religion is  a framework of beliefs relating to supernatural or superhuman beings or forces that transcend the everyday material world.) so religion might be the spritual power that put an individual in state of oneness with the whole cosmos, and this is the function of religion. On the other hand state is the colection of certain institutions that controls certain society. and as you know society may consist of more than one relgion, culture, language. and know that all individuals has the same rights regardless of their believes or cultural backgrounds. so the state is a nutral institutions that originally has no religion but constitution which determine state`s procedures.
Historically, the most worth periods upon human long history was that when state was controled by religion and became a religious, resulted in human dark periods. the main features of these periods were:
1- Absant of human rights for those people who were not believe in the religion of the state, so they exposed to death and torture.
2- As religion based on absolute thought, there was a real fight with sciences, resulted in domination of mythes and tabooing mentality on expences of scientific thought.
..an other point is that secularism is the best way to respect religion ans state, through respectfull of all religions and believes by offering same rights for all citizins of the society inspite of their believes ....
continue..
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Andrew Lauman
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Re: Church and State
November 20, 2004 - 08:10 AM
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Udara,
George Bush II fed the American public the most atrocious of lies when, during a presidential debate with Al Gore back in 2000, he indicated that Jesus Christ was his favorite philosopher. Quite the contrary as the world now knows. Bush's vengeful persona and his penchant for the spectacle in public office have been in contradistinction to all the teachings and actions of the Son of Man. Were Christ to replay the last minutes of his life on the Cross in 2003 say, for example, on Capitol Hill, there's no doubt that George Bush II would be the first to take a lance and plunge it into Christ's body just as the Roman soldier did so long ago atop Golgotha. Viewed from the enlightened teachings of Christ and his many sacrifices, Bush II is a pitiful human being, a paper tiger leader, a sad figure, one that has sold his soul to devilish handlers for earthly gain.
That is a horrible statement.
The article begins with a horrible statement and ends with a horrible statement.
You know there is truth in it, but its fraught with accusations.
George Bush II would be the first to take a lance and plunge it into Christ's body just as the Roman soldier did so long ago atop Golgotha
Udara, I don't know if you are a Christian or not, but when I read articles that make statements like this, this is not GODLIKE.
When Jesus confronted the pharisees He did in authority. He was healing the sick, curing the blind, raising the dead, and so on. Is this man who is attacking Bush doing such miraculous signs. Probably not. This article is not in love. This man is twisting Christian truths to appease his understanding of Christ, which is unfortunately, quite common.
There is a case for preemptive attack and show to be quite effective when comparing this to Hitler and Germany. Fortunately, Britain used this charge and brought about historical changes. The same can be said about OT history.
You know something, I read that article and the others and its sad. Christians fighting against Christians.
"Man of History"
By Ahmed Al-Jarallah
http://www.elijahlist.com/words/display_word.html?ID=2437
However, the united states is not a fair comparison because of the polarization around it. Thus, why I have used a country like Bogota.
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Cicero
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Re: Church and State
November 20, 2004 - 09:28 AM
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Forcing is unfair. Tyrrany never won anything on a long term. It may last for long but eventually it will be overwhelmed by free thinking people. I am a freethinking person.
George Bush forces people to live just as he thinks its "proper". I disagre with him and fully reject all of his ideology. I have my own ideology and faith to follow. So here comes the advice to all: Live your life as you know best and follow your own ground rules by that. Do not let others to push you down. You are equal among equals as Humankind is.
It is legal to refuse and reject unfairness anytime and everywhere. Just do it. AND SAY THIS:
Ave Futuria: Freedom ! Equality ! Progress !
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