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Andrew Lauman
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A Mother and her child. Priceless!
November 6, 2004 - 05:25 AM
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First of all, I would like to say that if you are reading this post and you have had an abortion. You can be forgiven. God loves you and there is nothing that can't be forgiven.
About 10 years ago, my girlfriend became pregnant and decided to have an abortion. A part of me didn't want to do that because I knew that it was wrong, but another part of me allowed it to happen. Because it is supposedly the woman's choice, I stepped aside and allowed it to happen. That was a mistake. A part of me died that day. Since then, I have accepted Jesus Christ's forgiveness and he has allowed me to be healed.
So I hope when you read my position, that you don't feel condemned, guilty or shamed. You are loved and greatly esteemed. God loves YOU so much that HE gave His only son no matter what you have done.
If you have any questions about this, you can email me and I would love to talk to you about it.
However, with me saying all that, you now realize why I argue against it.
"America needs no words from me to see how your decision in Roe v. Wade has deformed a great nation. The so-called right to abortion has pitted mothers against their children and women against men. It has sown violence and discord at the heart of the most intimate human relationships. It has aggravated the derogation of the father's role in an increasingly fatherless society. It has portrayed the greatest of gifts -- a child -- as a competitor, an intrusion, and an inconvenience. It has nominally accorded mothers unfettered dominion over the independent lives of their physically dependent sons and daughters"
And, in granting this unconscionable power, it has exposed many women to unjust and selfish demands from their husbands or other sexual partners. Human rights are not a privilege conferred by government. They are every human being's entitlement by virtue of his humanity. The right to life does not depend, and must not be declared to be contingent, on the pleasure of anyone else, not even a parent or a sovereign." (Mother Theresa -- "Notable and Quotable," Wall Street Journal, 2/25/94, p. A14)
"But I feel that the greatest destroyer of peace today is abortion, because it is a war against the child - a direct killing of the innocent child - murder by the mother herself. And if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another? How do we persuade a woman not to have an abortion? As always, we must persuade her with love, and we remind ourselves that love means to be willing to give until it hurts. Jesus gave even his life to love us. So the mother who is thinking of abortion, should be helped to love - that is, to give until it hurts her plans, or her free time, to respect the life of her child. The father of that child, whoever he is, must also give until it hurts. By abortion, the mother does not learn to love, but kills even her own child to solve her problems. And by abortion, the father is told that he does not have to take any responsibility at all for the child he has brought into the world. That father is likely to put other women into the same trouble. So abortion just leads to more abortion. Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching the people to love, but to use any violence to get what they want.
That is why the greatest destroyer of love and peace is abortion. "
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Gerald Derome
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Re: A Mother and her child. Priceless!
November 6, 2004 - 02:14 AM
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The greatest desroyer of love and peace, is, are at the top of, the human pyramid of powers and influence.
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Andrew Lauman
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Re: A Mother and her child. Priceless!
November 6, 2004 - 03:53 AM
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I agree with Neo.
Satan fell because there was pride in his heart. He wanted to God's position.
Adam and Eve fell because they wanted to be God.
To this day, it is pride that prevents people from accepting the atoning work of Jesus. 
However, I have to agree that the lowest form of this pride is aborting our babies. i think that this becomes one of the lowest forms of human degradation.
It is the deepest and most beautiful relationship in the world. A mother and its baby. when we destroy that, we destroy our conscience.
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Teresa
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Re: A Mother and her child. Priceless!
November 6, 2004 - 10:04 AM
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Okay, before I say anything, I am thankful to Bladerunner for giving us a chance to discuss this.
Secondly, since Bladerunner was kind enough to give you his background of why he cannot support this, let me give you mine. I am a 20 year old wife and mother of one beautiful daughter. I have also had a miscarriage (the child was not planned, but it did not make it any less special.) That happened last summer and the pain still resonates each and every day that I live. Could I have done something? Did I do something to make it happen? I do not smoke, I do not drink...there was no way to prevent it, for whatever reason my child was meant to be an Angel early.
But when I was 16, going on 17 and I found out that my boyfriend and I (now my husband) were expecting a child I completely freaked. We told my mother and his the morning that we found out, but I completely shut down. For 9 months, I barely remember talking, sleeping, eating or even living. I am glad I have tons of ultra sound pictures now as I was not processing it at all during that time. Finally Jed took the playpen that had been purchased, assembled it and set it in front of me and walked off (I was about 8 months preg. at this point.) I bawled for like 2 days straight. We fought alot during this point because even though I had been raised in a christian home and environment, I was not sure I wanted to carry out the pregnancy. Was aborting my child ever truly an option? No, it was not..not in my mind, but I kept thinking "There is an out." But my own morals and my raising would not allow me to harm a child I knew God had trusted me to bring into this world safely. Now 3 years later, I have a daughter whom I adore, and a husband that was my saving grace during that point. He literally kept me sane as most of my family was not speaking to me. I had gone against every thing that I had been taught (sex, marriage, and now a child would interfere with school.)
Now I realize I just made a case for exactly why not to have an abortion. When a female becomes preg. those that believe in God or some higher authority believe that they were chosen to carry that child and raise it to the best of their ability. But what about those that did not choose to get preg. or did not willingly choose to participate in intercourse? Should one person be able to make abortions wrong for every person, no exceptions? I have a problem with the thought of one authority figure being able to make that decision for me. There is always adoption, I think a process that is not always exercised as much as it should be. I think that in all possible situations, if you cannot handle having a child, send it to a loving home. There are millions of people wanting to have a beautiful baby and there are not enough babies to go around. But one leader should not be able to decide this heartbreaking decision for everyone.
I have a friend, she had a child, her and the fiancee split only to find out another child was on the way. The child that is due to be born at the end of this month is literally one week and one year younger than his brother. Upon her finding this out, she called me bawling...completely distraught. How could this happen? Well we all know how it happened, but why her? She was going to get rid of it. I convinced her to come stay with me for awhile and we would deal with it together? Was this my place? Did I have to do that? No, but for a friend, I would do anything. After some time away from the drama at home, she chose to keep the child. Still not knowing how she would support two sons with no help from the father. Not knowing where they would live if her parents kicked her out. But she made that decision. But there were points during that week where I had to tell her that I loved her, but if she chose another path, it was on her hands only and I was not sure how there for her I could be. I certainly would not be there when it was done nor was I sure what my role would be in her life afterwards. Is this harsh? Possibly, but she was not raped, she had sex more than willingly and was going to kill the child from it. These kind of abortions are absurb and I cannot support them at all.
I know this is alot to say, but it comes down to this. I could never go through an abortion myself, and anyone I know I will bend over backwards to help before I will see that happen. But ultimately when a mother makes the decision that she is going to terminate a pregnancy she alone must answer to God. You cannot hold yourself responsible for every abortion, every killing in a war (if you do not support it) nor force your christian values upon someone else. It has to be their own concisous decision and once it is made, you had just better pray you did all you can do. Love that person, support that person and then decide what your role will be afterwards. That person will have a lot of guilt and abortion is one of the highest causes for relationship termination. They cannot deal or face the other after the procedure is complete. If my friend had done that, I know I did all I could. I offered her my home, all that I could give of myself to her emotionally, my time, my energy and my non-stop prayers. But ultimately the decision was hers, but I knew my role afterwards...there would not have been one.
Teresa
www.geocities.com/umhbtexasdem@sbcglobal.net
FREEDOM IS THE SOUND OF OPINIONS CLASHING!
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redmamba
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it is true but..........!
November 6, 2004 - 10:32 AM
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There are many who suffer because of having aborted. In some places, women do it locally or traditionally without seeking proper medical help. There is no person who would abort without a reason. There are many reasons that people posit so as to justify this act. By the mere fact that we try to justify it, it means that it is not self-justifying or it is not good in itself. But given reasons can be given in the name of justifying it, we need check them out with the reasons as to why we can not justify the particular act in particular circumstances.
There are cases when the health of the mother is in danger. At times, the child may have been begotten in-appropriately e.g when a young girl of 13 yrs is raped and she conceives.
We can argue that there is not in-appropriate conception, it is true but that is in as much as we wish it so. In reality there are many in-appropriations that we do not guestion. For example, there are many who are carried by their mothers for nine months only to live for one day or two then be gone to the other world. What was the use of this people's coming into being? Is it that God plans it so? for me such like happenings sound very in-appropriate.
Many other people abort and posit not being ready or not being able to raise the child.
Why do people engage in that after-which a child is conceived? some it is for pleausure, some it is a favour to gain favour, some it is under some pressures and some it is because of the desire to have a child. whichever the case, I think, it is because of their desire for happiness and self-fullfillment.
Considering circumstances we may find that in some cases abortion is justifiable.
Much of condemning, judging and lebelling adds to the suffering that many who were fortunate or un-fortunate enough to abort experience. Dealing with individual cases with integrity, love and respect for humanity can help those who find themselves victims or affected, deal with it positively.
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Andrew Lauman
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Re: A Mother and her child. Priceless!
November 7, 2004 - 05:07 AM
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Thanks for sharing that Theresa and thanks for being real. I appreciated that. How is your friend today?
Have you ever read the God Memorandum by Og Mandino? http://www.wowzone.com/godmemo.htm
One of the things that I really like about this story is this passage,
What is past is past ... and now you know the fourth great law of happiness and success ... Use wisely, your power of choice.
Choose to love ... rather than hate.
Choose to laugh ... rather than complain.
Choose to create ... rather than destroy.
Choose to persevere ... rather than quit.
Choose to praise ... rather than gossip.
Choose to heal ... rather than wound.
Choose to give ... rather than steal.
Choose to act ... rather than procrastinate.
Choose to grow ... rather than rot.
Choose to pray ... rather than curse.
Choose to live ... rather than die.
Now you know that your misfortunes were not my will, for all power was vested in you, and the accumulation of deeds and thoughts which placed you on the refuse of humanity were your doing, not mine. My gifts of power were too large for your small nature. Now you have grown tall and wise and the fruits of the land will be yours.
Choice is the power that affects us all. Proactive than being reactive, eh?
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Teresa
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Re: A Mother and her child. Priceless!
November 7, 2004 - 06:56 AM
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Bladerunner,
I honestly do not know how my friend is. I have only spoken with her a couple of times since she left my house early this summer. She went home and went back into the drama, the arguments, and I just had to much going on and she was not listening. I realized that she would make her own life choices and I could not let her suck the life out of me nor my family. Her baby is due on the 31st of this month, other than that, I do not know much on her condition as of late. Thanks for asking.
Teresa
www.geocities.com/umhbtexasdem@sbcglobal.net (completely updated)
FREEDOM IS THE SOUND OF OPINIONS CLASHING!
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Brian
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Re: A Mother and her child. Priceless!
November 8, 2004 - 05:02 AM
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Teresa that was a great post. It takes a grand courage to speak publically about such heart-felt aspects of life.
Bladerunner thanks man for opening this thread!
Ok, here's my perspective. I had a situation when I was still in high school and didn't really have any religious or moral convictions that I was aware of at the time. My ex "thought" she "might" be pregnant and told me so one day. I thought a lot about it through the next day and was disturbed but not thinking about abortion. The next day she tells me that she took a "day after" pill that would terminate an early term pregnancy. She did this without even finding out if she was actually pregnant and definitely without telling me before hand so I could give an opinion. Needless to say I was angry. The empty halls of our school echoed from my screaming that afternoon when she told me that. Even back then in my state of moral disconnectedness something inside me knew that abortion in that situation was wrong. I have since, very recently in fact, forgiven her for that in my heart and would forgive anyone who says they have had an abortion.
I feel this is an emotionally charged issue and I do know those emotions well. I do feel that there are situations where abortion is medically necessary for the survival of the mother. But for the most part, I don't feel that abortion is the way to go. Having said that, I also don't feel that making abortion illegal would really solve anything. It would only make the abortions that *will happen anyway* more dangerous. I have a sneaking suspicion that many people get behind the abortion issue and want to politicize it. I feel this is wrong. I think the best thing well-meaning and loving Christians (and anyone for that matter) can do is give guidance to these young (and not so young in some cases) couples and single girls to help them make a truly informed choice.
On a side note, I want to say that those people who bomb abortion clinics are terrorists. No wiggle room there.
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Ashraf
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Re: A Mother and her child. Priceless!
November 8, 2004 - 08:07 AM
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In my religion, abortion is forbidden unless pregnancy risks the life of the mother. Also all children belong to their biological parents.
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Teresa
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Re: A Mother and her child. Priceless!
November 9, 2004 - 01:53 AM
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Palestinian,
So let me ask you this, when you said all children belong to their biological parents; does that mean if a child is adopted the birth parents could come back at any point? I know there have been cases here in the states where they will still give the birth parents priority no matter how long they have been gone..but its hard to do. I'm just curious what that entailed.
Thank you Brian, I do not mind only because I love both of my children, the one I have and the one I do not. There was no honest way I could have gotten rid of my daughter, but I have been there...I know those thoughts. Being deathly afraid that your whole entire universe will be ruined by something so tiny and innocent. Being at the time so self-absorbed that you do not know how you could put something over yourself. I love children, have loved the ones that aren't mine as well (long story), but anyways, I knew if I had ever given anything in my life, I had to give life to this child. It was my choice and I do not regret that choice ever.
I am sorry about what your girlfriend at the time did, she should have talked to you. Time does not always heal all does it?  Here for ya if you need anything, even though I know you have Teresa now.
T
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FREEDOM IS THE SOUND OF OPINIONS CLASHING!
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Brian
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Re: A Mother and her child. Priceless!
November 9, 2004 - 10:28 AM
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No Teresa, time doesn't always heal. I hurt over that for a long, long time. Prayer does! At least for me. Thinking about that day still hurts, but the bitterness and anger is gone from my heart. 8 )
I was trying to remember if I heard that the lady from the Roe v. Wade case had actually changed her position. I believe one of my history professors told us that in class once. I looked it up and, sure enough, she has.
http://abortionismurder.org/roechangedhermind.shtml
I think all people who view this case as absolute need to be aware of this. (a side note...I haven't looked at the rest of the site and don't associate myself with it at this time. Just wanted to be clear.)
Palestinian I don't remember if the Bible specifically prohibits abortion. "Thou shalt not kill" certainly seems to cover it though. What did you mean when you said: "Also all children belong to their biological parents." Just curious.
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Udara
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Re: A Mother and her child. Priceless!
November 13, 2004 - 02:31 AM
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Hey Palestinian, great seeing you here dude, long time no see.
>we can foster orphans and raise them like our own sons and >daughters but we can not take them away and claim to be
>their real parents
Question is, can you only foster orphans ? Suppose if there is a child in a poor family who's parents will be having no real chance of feeding- safety and if the real parent insists on your fostering the baby,
is this allowed or not ?
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Ashraf
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Re: A Mother and her child. Priceless!
November 13, 2004 - 06:27 AM
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Salam Udara,
Good to see you here  .
You could help the parents raise their own children if they were poor or needy by providing them with the financial and safety means they don't have. But in all cases you can not claim to be the (legal) parent if you were not the biological father or mother in Islam.
I would like to also add that we never have the adoption problems that exist in the American courts simply because we don't have adoption to start with.
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Ashraf
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Re: A Mother and her child. Priceless!
November 13, 2004 - 12:38 PM
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umhbtexasdem,
There is no adoption in Islam. The children can only claim the names of their biological parents. For example, we can foster orphans and raise them like our own sons and daughters but we can not take them away and claim to be their real parents.
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Udara
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Re: A Mother and her child. Priceless!
November 14, 2004 - 02:18 AM
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Thanks Palestinian, for your prompt reply.
Actually, what happens here in SL is once you adopt a baby, you become his/her adopted parent. Means you are legally responsible for the child.
I would like to know more on this.
Is adoption proscribed in Islam, if so what are the reasons?
Udara
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