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Andi
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Palestinian Suicide Bombers: Heroes or Terrorists?
August 21, 2002 - 02:44 AM
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Do you think the Palestinian suicide bombers are heroes for sacrificing themselves to kill Israelis or are they terrorists for killing innocent people? I personally think it's wrong to kill innocent people, but they don't have any other weapon against Israel's weapons and tanks.
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Robert Margolis
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Two Points
August 22, 2002 - 04:54 AM
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1) No matter how many Palestinians are killed, they are not moving to Jordan.
2) No matter how many suicide attacks against Israelis, they will not be driven into the sea.
Conclusion: If things stay the same, both sides will increase the body count, yet make no progress. I was not trying to sound Pollyanna in my previous post, only that the present course is not working for either side.
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Andi
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Re: Palestinian Suicide Bombers: Heroes or Terrorists?
August 22, 2002 - 07:02 AM
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I didn't mean the Palestinians become suicide bombers to become heroes, they become heroes to Palestinians as a result.
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Nedal Zahran
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Heros
August 22, 2002 - 07:48 AM
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yesterday i was watching the news, a woman in her 70's appeared with tears on her cheek after the israelis destroyed the building that contained her flat and killed a family member. she said : "we don't want anything from them, we don't want to do suicide bombings, but what you see behind me is not peace. they are inviting us to make these bombings, right now i would make a bombing myself if i could."
she is not aiming to be a hero. but none of you have experienced the rage she did when she woke up to see rubble replacing her life, when you feel so helpless against such a vicious enemy helplesness turns into rage that can destroy the world not just a bus or a cafe.
all Palestinians feel this helplessness, every single day, when we have to walk half the distance to universities because of a roadblock the destroyed the road and place APC's and tanks, or when forced to remain at home for weeks because of the curfews. you will feel this helplessness turning into destructive rage when every single detail of your life has to be planned then re-planned because of the most barbaric evil that exists in the world today- military occupation.
Palestinians never cheer death, although it seems like they do. however, with every bombing they see themselves punching the monster that chased them all their life. i think standing up infront of this monster for so long is enough to make a hero. maybe attacking civilians is not the proper method for resisting the occupation, but what has the international community done over the years to stop the israeli agressions, and force it to end it's occupation?
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Robert Margolis
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Utilitarians strike again
August 22, 2002 - 11:56 AM
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Non violent direct action would work much better against the Israelis. The very fact that Sharon is Prime Minister is demonstration that all the violence has done is to inflame the will on both sides and promote the extremists in both camps (i.e., wanting the whole pie rather than accepting a just a piece). It seems in the middle east that "insanity" (i.e., belief that doing the same thing will produce different results) is the rule for the day.
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Nedal Zahran
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Right/Wrong
August 24, 2002 - 03:46 AM
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killing is never the right response to anything. but how can u ask someone not to kill (and get killed in the process) if the neccessities of a decent life are not provided for him. many say this phenomenon is a wake up call to the world maybe they would remember what has been going on this land for more than 50 years. disturbing? maybe, what has been done to stop it, to irradicate the roots of the problem?
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Mike
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Its a two opinion problem...
August 24, 2002 - 09:15 AM
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I think this conversation is entirely focused around the two opinions that people either act according to the circumstances they are in, or they dont.
Im of the first opinion, but that doesnt make the suicide bombing the right response.
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Mike
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I think...
August 24, 2002 - 10:08 AM
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I think what you and I are saying Nedalz is essentially the same.
The solutiuon to the cycle of violence is simple, break the continium of despair and revenge.
But, how?
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Pred.
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Nedal Zahran
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Solution
August 25, 2002 - 02:33 AM
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pred, the solution is always reached by tackling the root of the problem- occupation. it is everyone's obligation to stand up against the longest military occupation in contemporary history. one which still lives on in the 21st centuary with the blind support of US, and other western powers. every single person is responsible for standing up against these injustices which are comparable only to what has been taking place in apartheid state in south africa.
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Raymond M. Kristiansen
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Re: Palestinian Suicide Bombers: Heroes or Terrorists?
August 25, 2002 - 09:19 AM
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hmm, where to start...
my sympathies to the victims, whoever they are and whatever religion or race or age they belong to.
my hope that constructive discussion CAN take place, instead of heated emotions.
once one young palestinian becomes radicalized (by seeing a brother being shot in the head, for instance) and perhaps decides to be a human bomb against the attackers, the victims of This human bomb will also be radicalized, perhaps not by becoming human bombs, but by for instance voting on a political Israeli party which are even more hawkish than the current regime?
in my personal opinion both Sharon and Arafat should LEAVE the political scene, those two old wardogs are souvenirs from the past (1967 (or was it 1969?) war for instance). What we need is that the youthful voices come more to the front. NOT the radicalized youths, but the youths as in those who, for instance, have not become so used to the bad habit of seeing the other as an israeli/palestinian = an enemy. there are peace groups active on both the palestinian and israeli side of the conflict. these peace groups need more attention in my opinion. their message need to be listened to.
the current conflict is not only destabilizing the social structure of whole communities/countries, but are also hugely affecting the opportunity for the countries to start focusing on developing their country. just look at the tourism industry...
oh, and Nedalz I agree with you: The root of the problem is the occupation. But I think that at this point the right path is to aim at a compromise. Not squeezing out the Israeli people from the area, but neither to continue squeezing out the Palestinians. But a question to those who know Israeli politics better than me: Why is it so difficult for Israel to accept withdrawing to pre-1967 borders?
in 1940-45 the Norwegian people, even under occupation under the nazi army, had resistance. Underground opposition forces blew up bridges and did lots of other missions. In the words of the NS propaganda all of these were terrorists. But is it terrorism to try to defend one's own country?
but
Personally I am Very disgusted by the concept of suicide bombings against civilian targets. So Low, so untrue to ANY religious message...
no side is good in this conflict, the conflict has gotten so rotten that nobody's hands are clean, not even the hands of the rest of the world who are sitting here watching what is happening in the middle east.
We must learn to forgive and move on. No more "an eye for an eye".
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Nedal Zahran
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Re: Palestinian Suicide Bombers: Heroes or Terrorists?
August 26, 2002 - 02:13 AM
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dltq,
the situation is sickening. personally, i support a different strategy in resisting the occupation. attacking civilian targets would never get us closer to acheiving our aim.
but this is not the only method the Palestinians have used. i can proudly say that Palestinians hit record in non-violent protests against the occupation. the history dates back to 1936 when a 6 months general strike was held in protest against british mandate (which i think is the longest strike in history). and the number of non-violent demonstrations, strikes, protests greatly outnumbers violent incidents. but the israeli army response to these protests was always violent; using tear gas and ruber bullets.
it is sad that the only news that goes accross is news of the bombings. journalists disregard these protests when reporting because it is not as catchy as a bombing. exactly the same way the murder of 5 Palestinians in 5 different incidents is less catchy than the death of 5 israelis in one bombing.
everyone agrees that the occupation is the root of the problem. the israelis have made the end of the conflict more complex by building up settlement on land confiscated from Palestinian farmers/landowners. these settelements are fortified (just as medevial castles), and reserved for jews (ie. not all israeli citizens are allowed to purchase the government subsidised houses). they are also connected by a network of roads (built on confiscated Palestinian land) which bypass Palestinian towns, and reserved for israelis only.
why the israelis refuse to withdraw to 1967 borders? although these borders symbolise to many a huge comprimise both from mandate Palestine, and from the area alloted to the arab state by UN resolution 181 - 1949, the answer to this question is obvious. After 36 years of making facts on the grounds, it is clear that the israelis never intended to leave the land occupied in 1967, which to many symbolises the rest of the biblical "promised land". no israeli government have tried to take a different path and freez the settlement building which is illegal under international law. instead this has been a top agenda item in every national elections campaign as if it was a matter of national security. in fact, these illegal settlement kept getting subsidised by the israeli government to the extent that a house that would normally cost USD 200,000 costs only USD 17,000. ofcourse, in addition to many benifits received by settlers.
this is only one aspect of the problem. you can find the answer everywhere, in issues ranging from control over water resources, Jerusalem, the right of Palestinians to sovreignity over the future State of Palestine etc.
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Robert Margolis
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Abdul Ghaffar Khan
August 26, 2002 - 12:27 PM
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Just read about this Pashtun leader:
http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/culture/articles/eav051002.shtml
Apparently he organized an army of 100,000 men. They were considered the first non-violent army and he was called the "frontier Gandhi".
I am NOT posting this as a "silver bullet", only to show what other means cultures under occupation have used.
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Nedal Zahran
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america& the occupation
August 30, 2002 - 03:13 AM
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Pred, Noam Chomsky, a fabulous jewish writer, and a strong critique of zionism, and imperialism, wrote a book on the complexity of conflict especially with america as a party in it. Fateful Triangle it is called. I didn't read the whole book, but it details the extent of influence the zionist lobby has in determining the policy for the u.s. and how much of that policy is aimed at pulling the israeli government from the diplomatic mess they get in everytime they commit some stupidity killing a whole family like they did two nights ago in Gaza, or bomb a residential area by f16's...
The u.s., especially under bush,jr. is becomming more israeli than israel. and is leading the fight against Palestinians.
americans do have the responsibility to change this. it is their tax money which goes to fund purchases of f16's, finance settlements, and enhance the israeli military capabilities. this is not a call to cut all foreign aid like the american extreme right is asking.. but why should any government pay another government great amounts of money to kill a defenseless people?
right there are blind people everywhere, but while we are talking about them we should make sure we don't belong to them, and make sure we don't turn into clumsy, useless passerbys...
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Mike
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In reponse to...
August 30, 2002 - 09:45 AM
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In response to Nedalz point about occupation being the major problem.
I think it is quite appropriate to say the United States' support is neither blind nor misguided, it is a calculated and openly voiced opinion that has been conveyed quite clearly to the Palestinians, and to the rest of the world.
The blindness lies in some of the people in the United States, who have failed to seek to understand what drives people to violence. And failed to call for diplomacy, to give peace just that one more chance.
Im a firm believer that if one searches for something long enough (even peace), what you look for will eventually find you.
Let us not forget that there are blind people on all sides. Palestinian, Israeli, American, and those among the rest of us. Perhaps we need to search for a way to envision peace, before we can ever hope for its existence.
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Pred.
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Mike
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I think...
September 5, 2002 - 07:41 AM
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I think I agree with most of what your saying.
I think what is needed, is essentially a balance between outside influences in the conflict and the voices of change within the two sides.
Unfortunately, none of the domestic voices seem willing to come to the table.
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Pred.
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