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Luke Lieberman
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Islamic court orders women stoned
October 12, 2004 - 04:34 AM
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This is unbeleivable -
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/africa/10/12/stoning.reut/index.html
BAUCHI, Nigeria (Reuters) -- Islamic courts in Nigeria sentenced two women to death by stoning for having sex out of wedlock, but two men whom they said they slept with were acquitted for lack of evidence, authorities said Tuesday.
Both sentences, which were passed within the last month in the northern state of Bauchi, have to be confirmed by the state governor before being carried out, and they are open to appeal.
Nobody has been lawfully stoned to death in Nigeria since 12 northern states introduced Islamic Sharia law in 2000, because all such sentences have been overturned on appeal.
Hajara Ibrahim, a 29-year-old woman, was sentenced on October 5 by an Islamic Sharia court in the Tafawa Balewa area of the state, having confessed to having sex with 35-year-old Dauda Sani and becoming pregnant, the court said in a statement.
"The court has however handed the woman convict to her guardian to take care of her until she delivers the baby before the sentence will be executed by stoning her to death according to the provisions of the Sharia penal code," the court said.
"There is no evidence to link him with the allegation and consequently the court acquitted him for lack of evidence."
The second woman, 26-year-old Daso Adamu, was handed the same sentence on September 15 by a Sharia court in Ningi area of Bauchi state, said judge Ahmed Musa Wurojamel.
Adamu admitted to having sex with a 35-year-old man 12 times, and is now in custody in Ningi prison, the judge added.
Sharia judgments often go unreported in Nigeria because they are handed down in small, remote court houses and local media interest is limited.
Previous sentences of death by stoning for adultery in 2002 and 2003 were overturned by higher Sharia courts after international appeals for clemency.
The adoption of Sharia law in northern Nigeria has polarized Africa's most populous nation, whose 130 million population is split roughly evenly between Muslims and Christians.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Islamic court orders women stoned
October 12, 2004 - 04:37 AM
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Muslims wonder how they are seen as intolerant by the western world - and why they are considered oppressors of women's rights -
well I think this kind of thing speaks volumes. Sharia is an oppressive form of law and needs to go.
Muslims can practice their religion without stoning women to death - its just rediculous.
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Danny Sweeney
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Re: Islamic court orders women stoned
October 12, 2004 - 07:12 AM
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"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - Jesus Christ, Islamic prophet.
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Cicero
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Re: Islamic court orders women stoned
October 13, 2004 - 04:04 AM
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"Never be against people with your laws" (Codex)
"Individual is the base of everything" (Codex) ...
-------------------------------------------------------
Too bad when Humankind becomes a tool for ideological purposes. It makes Humankind expendable.
P.S.: That act must be prevented, while sharia law abolished - for the reasons of preservance of Humanity !
Ave Futuria: Freedom ! Equality ! Progress !
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Marye
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Re: Islamic court orders women stoned
October 15, 2004 - 04:14 AM
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It hurts me to see in this day and age such incidences occuring, especially when the women are solely blamed. The men were released for 'lack of evidence' but one woman is pregnant! Go figure!
While I respect their religion, there are certain infringments on one's basic rights that go beyond and should be upheld by one's religion. Therefore it is my recommendation that such laws be abolished.
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Ashraf
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Re: Islamic court orders women stoned
October 16, 2004 - 04:27 AM
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http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=3284
Title:
Sentencing adulterers to death
Question:
Assalaamu ‘aleykum,
How can it be that in a case in Nigeria a woman is sentenced to death for adultery? The Qur'an specifies that the punishment with four witnesses for adultery and fornication is a hundred lashes (24:2). It is inconceivable that the Prophet (pbuh) would have either acted against this instruction, which is to flog people who do this sin, or if he ever did sentence someone to death at some point, then this verse must be taken as abrogating that punishment.
I've heard some people say that stoning only applies to married couples committing adultery, but that contradicts the Qur'an, and in the Nigerian case the woman was not even married!
I've also heard that scholars have agreed that this verse was referring to the first part of the punishment and that the guilty should also be stoned (after being flogged). This sounds like applying two punishments! According to the hadith upon which the ruling on stoning the married adulterers is based, when the woman requested not to be stoned, the response by the Prophet implies that they should not have done so.
In the Nigerian case, the woman is clearly appealing against the sentence. If she'd claimed to have been raped, would the charges have to be dropped?
Please explain what is the rationale (if any!) behind such ruling.
Jazakallahu kheyr for your time, wa salaam
Answer:
Thank you sister Safiya for this question.
First of all, I would like to bring to your attention that the authority for Muslims in Islam is not the practice of Muslims and Muslim States. Imam Ali (Allah be pleased with him) once said: ‘We know people by al-haq (the truth) and we do not know al-haq by people.’ This means that we should evaluate people by how strong their adherence and commitment to the true path and that we should not evaluate any path by those who are affiliated with or practice it.
The case you mentioned is only one of many other cases in several areas of the Muslim World, where shar’ia (Islamic law) is practiced primitively, if I may say, and away from the objectives and intentions of shari’a. One can see this clearly in the application of hudud (punishments). Some Muslim communities see hudud only as punishments for criminals; they don't perceive hudud as part of a comprehensive system that works in harmony. This system, which is a way of life, is clearly balanced by justice and aimed toward serving the interest of people.
Linguistically, hudud in Arabic means limits or preventions. Legally, they are limits, which prevent the crime from increasing in society, prevent the criminal from going back to similar crimes, and prevent those who think about the same crime from pursuing it. Hudud in this sense are not merely punishments, on the contrary, they are limits and preventive means placed within a larger framework of justice, related directly to the interests of people to serve the ultimate objectives of the Islamic law.
Secondly, I think it is useful to know that the punishment system in Islam has concerns that Muslims need to be aware of. It concerns that are aimed toward the three dimensions of any crime: the criminal (the one who carried out the act), the society (where the crime took place) and the victim (the one who was subject to the criminal act). These objectives are:
To criminals, punishment is kaffara (purification) and reforming for the re-acceptance into the society.
To society, punishment is a preventive method to save the society from crimes.
To victims, punishment is a mean of retribution.
Also, this system is governed by a few key principles, which are:
Every Muslim is accountable for his/her deeds and for every crime there is a punishment that is enforceable by the Muslim State. This principle makes Muslims believe that it is better for them to get punished in their life than to be punished in the hereafter.
The punishment should be prevented as much as possible. A’isha narrated that the Prophet (pbuh) said:
‘Ward off punishment as much as you can. If you find any way out for a Muslim then set him free. If the Imam makes a mistake in granting forgiveness, it is better for him than that he should commit a mistake in imposing punishment.’
Thus any doubt about the evidence should prevent the punishment.
Punishments were set down to protect and secure the ultimate five elements of people’s interests: al-dharuriyat (necessities). These are: deen (belief), an-Nafis (life), al-‘aqil (intellect), al-mal (wealth) and an-nasil (family and lineage).
In addition, it is important to know that in Islam, punishments applied by the Muslim State should be the last resort in preventing crimes and saving the society. The Muslim State should insure the fulfillments of the citizens’ needs in every aspect of their life. Moreover, practicing al-amru bil ma’ruf wa an-nahiyu ‘an al-munkar (enjoining the good and forbidding the evil) in its proper way comes before the application of punishments.
According to the majority of scholars, in its legal meaning zina is ‘the voluntary sexual intercourse outside of marriage when the male sexual organ is inserted inside the female one, regardless of the number of times.’
The act of zina is committed voluntarily, thus rape is not zina and any sexual act under constraint is not zina as well. Also, there should be no doubt that the two partners are not married to one another; any doubt in this sense makes the act not zina.
Finally, the sexual organ must be inserted inside the female vagina, thus any other intimate act, even if it is haraam (prohibited), does not qualify for any specific fixed physical punishment set out in Islamic law (i.e.hudud).There are about 10 conditions of zina you can refer to in books of fiqh (Islamic law).
Islam considers zina a major sin, an indecent act, and an evil path. Therefore, protecting society from zina is an evident aim of Islam. Since zina is considered a great sin and a detestable social illness, Islam required doubtless proof for convicting an individual of zina and severe punishment for those convicted.
There are three clear means of proving zina:
The person accused of zina (zaani) makes a confession and does not go back on his confession. Once the person retracts his/her confession, they are not punishable because there is no proof of the act.
Four reliable and pious men testify that they witnessed the act and actually saw the male sexual organ inserted into the vagina.
A woman without a husband found to be pregnant.
Scholars agreed on the first two methods of proving zina, but disputed the third one; some scholars rejected the third point as proof.
As for those convicted, punishment may be depending on the case; 100 lashes or stoning. The punishment for unmarried individuals is to be flogged 100 lashes. Allah said in the Quran:
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Surah 24 Verse 2
The punishment for individuals whom are married and commit zina is stoning until death. The Prophet (pbuh) said:
‘The blood of a Muslim who testifies that there is no true god but Allah and that I am Allah’s messenger, does not become permissible except for one of three acts: a married person who commits zina, one soul for another (killed) soul, and a man who abandons his deen (religion) and departs from jamaa’ah (of Muslims).’ (Sahih Muslim)
Also, the sunna recorded that the Prophet (pbuh) punished by stoning a number of people such as Ma’iz ibn Malik and Al-Ghamidiyah. Some scholars said the punishment for a married person accused of zina is both flogging and stoning, but the vast majority of scholars did not accept this and limited the punishment to stoning only.
Ibn Al-Qayim in his book A’lam Al-Muwaqa’in, after thoroughly discussing zina as a major detestable sin and explaining its danger to the society stated: ‘…for the zani (the one who committed zina) there are two conditions:
One, the individual, who is married; that has experienced marriage, understands the Islamic reasons for marriage, and has protected himself from zina and al-had (the punishment) and then commits zina. The punishment for those is more severe, because they have no excuse for committing haraam.
The second condition is when the zani is not married; that does not know what the married individual knows and therefore has an excuse to ease the punishment of zina to flogging rather than stoning.’
Allah knows best.
Wa salaam
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Teresa
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Re: Islamic court orders women stoned
October 17, 2004 - 01:33 AM
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I remeber reading this article and being amazed that these orders would actually be carried out. These two men being let go on a lack of evidence is about par for the course. Before any of you males take this as a hater statement, I just mean there are still parts of the world as we all know and this article proves that men still dominate and do no wrong. Obviously pregnancy is hard to understand why it does not justify as more then enough evidence. But I hate to see women injured or killed for cavemen laws. I respect all religions and believe that no matter what country you live in, you have a right to choose those laws. But never in my mind is it alright to kill another human being for something that is completely injustified. Is adultry wrong? Yes it is, but didn't those men commit it also? This just infuriates me and there are never any proper words to relay the feelings. If you blast it to much on one end, you are a man hater (which I am not) and if you do not defend the women, you are cold. Isnt that horrible when something as important as this, words simply evade you? I will quit rambling now...I am sorry for these women and I am sorry they live in a place where this is still acceptable behavior.
Teresa
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Ashraf
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Re: Islamic court orders women stoned
October 17, 2004 - 03:37 AM
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I believe the answer is clear enough. I don't need to add anything new to it.
Let me just say that the Holy Qur'an is our constitution as you all have your constitutions.
You have your religion and we have ours.
and lone-wolf:
Please tell me if it is true that God commanded stoning for violations of the Ten Commandments according to the bible.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Islamic court orders women stoned
October 17, 2004 - 03:56 AM
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Palestinian - when America had slavery - this didn't mean that it was right - or that others were not allowed to critisize us for it - stoning or flogging women is a violation of human rights.
The Nazis had their ideology too - I think we can agree that it was wrong. How would you feel if a Nazi said "we have our constitution and you have yours" - its silly - the pont is whether this is truly just action
Every system of justice needs constant reforming - this one which advocates stoning women is in obvious need of reform - period.
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Ashraf
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Re: Islamic court orders women stoned
October 17, 2004 - 04:08 AM
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luke,
Why do you keep making it sound as if the flogging is only practiced for women and not also for men?.
Read the answer again and read the conditions.
and please..Nazism is a manmade ideology and not a religion of God. losing perspective?.
What is realy silly is judging a religion of God from the laws of a racist manmade ideology such as Nazism. It is absured and pathetic and shows clear intentions to slander the religion.
I also need your comments on the following verses in the bible:
"And The Lord said to Moses ... He who blasphemes the Name of The Lord shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him; the sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death." (Leviticus 24:13,16 RSV)
"If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, entices you secretly, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods ... You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from The Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." (Deuteronomy 13:6,10 RSV)
"While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day ... And The Lord said to Moses, "The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." (Numbers 15:32,35 RSV)
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Danny Sweeney
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Re: Islamic court orders women stoned
October 17, 2004 - 05:08 AM
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I got slightly lost in all that - but i think your saying that stoning is o.k (correct me if i'm wrong).
have you ignored all the other posts.
If is is true then Islam claiming to believe in Jesus is nothing but a lie
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - Islam claims to believe in Jesus as a prophet but the feeling i get is that you guys are very selective over which of his teachings you use.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Islamic court orders women stoned
October 17, 2004 - 05:15 AM
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Yes I understand that the Old Testiment had similar punishments - if you haven't notices we don't use them anymore.
That is the point - our laws have evolved from 1000 B.C. until now.
You seem to think that laws should never evolve but always remain where they were 1500 years ago.
And you keep complaining about not being welcome in the civilized world - well... the civilized world has evolved from 1500 years ago. No one uses the laws of the Old Testiment.
Also I really don't understand your point - so men are also flogged - so it is twice as brutal.
its like saying we don't only kill children but also the elderly - ever here the saying 2 wrongs don't make a right.
Now I don't have a problem with capital punishment when the culperate is truly guilty of a capital offense (like first degree murder) -
But this is called cruel and unusual punishment.
It is really amazing that you are trying to stand up for this disgraceful practice - you keep asking about being welcomed into the civilizes world - expect that these practices will NEVER be welcome in the civilized world.
As for the Nazis - the point is that "its my religion" is no excuse - what if your religion told you to eat babies?
wrong is wrong - flogging women or men is wrong.
Hell when you saw the Abu Garev prison scandel you were appalled - why because it was torture - and torture is wrong - we recognized it was wrong and we have 18 guards on trial right now.
You seem to think that if the Koran says its OK to torture someone - then it is - wrong.
I don't care what the Bible, the Koran, or any other book says - wrong is wrong.
The Koran also has laws governing the owning of slaves - so does the Bible -
are you saying that slavery is ok because the Bible and the Koran say it is?
flogging women for having sex is purely barbaric and will never be welcomed by civilized nations.
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Ashraf
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Re: Islamic court orders women stoned
October 17, 2004 - 05:32 AM
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luke,
Let us assume you abandoned your religion and its laws. What gives you the right to dictate that we should abandon ours as well?. We believe in our religion.
Second, the religion of Islam does not say we should eat babies. You are being sarcastic and your tone is very obvious. You just have an open agenda to attack Islam because it is Islam and nothing else.
Third, we Muslims believe that God Knows what is best for His creation and we believe what He says in the Holy Qur'an is the Truth.
You have a problem with that?..BIG DEAL!
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Islamic court orders women stoned
October 17, 2004 - 06:58 AM
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What?
this is silly - I have an agenda to stop women from being stoned to death - I don't care if it is the bible or the Koran or anything else - it doesn't make any difference.
I have defended Islam when it was attacked by simply saying that both Koran AND Bible have intoleranbt verses that were more in keeping with the morals of 1000+ years ago.
You still haven't answered my question - do you beleive in slavery - because this is discussed in the Koran as well.
So for you slavery is acceptable because the Koran says so - is this the case?
I understand that the Koran doesn't tell you to eat babies - the question is that if the Koran did say that - would you consider it just?
I have no problem with any religion - I have a BIG problem with fundamentalism.
How can you possibly support the stoning of women?
How can you not see that the religion is immaterial to me - I couldn't care less which religous text advocates this - its wrong to stone women - it is out of the dark ages.
Not only do I have a problem with it - if you haven't noticed ALOT of people have a problem with it - like everyone else who posted.
And America will ALWAYS challenge you on barbarism of this kind - your world will change if you like it or not - we will not allow this kind of behavior to continue.
As far as abandoning our religion - we have evolved beyond the parts of our religions which promoted intolerance and savagery - like the stoning of women.
You think these practices make you moral? Make you spiritual?
No - these practices are the cowardice of men. You are a coward to throw a stone at a woman -
are you so insecure that if a woman has sex the only way for you to deal with it is public execution?
pathetic
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Teresa
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Re: Islamic court orders women stoned
October 17, 2004 - 07:42 AM
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I understand and can respect that there are cultures that are still devout to certain religions. I can also understand though that we as a society, we must evolve to remain alive. It is like animals, they are always adapting to their environment so they do not become extinct. The ones that have not adapted are now on watch list or are gone. Am I comparing this whole thing to animals? No, what I am saying is that as a society, as a culture, you must evolve and understand that what worked for our ancestors, is not neccesarily the truest of methods now. I can understand that there are those that follow their religion and will not stray, but it is not a question of straying. It is about saying, this is wrong. The problem with putting something out there for everyone else to provide their input and even judge, you may not like the response you get. In America, this is not acceptable behavior. In your country, your religion, it may be...but there is no excuse and no justifiable reason to still be stoning men or women for what their counterparts do; they just do not get caught. The even simplest form of this is, that we will never understand why in your rational mind you can completely defend this act. Just like I am sure in yours, you cannot understand why in our rational minds we would not accept this practice. In our society, in our times, this practice is wrong and ancient...but that does not mean that it is in yours.
Teresa
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