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Haseeb
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Fighting Terror
September 22, 2004 - 08:12 AM
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Here I am quoting one Musharaf on that fight against Terror :
"I think we are the main contributors to the campaign against terror.
"I really am terribly disappointed when anybody uses the words 'not doing enough'.
"Who else is doing anything? It is only Pakistan which is doing SOMETHING."
I am all praise to this man , he has done alot over the years for his country and the place Pakistan today is all tribute to him . But , here I am catching him on this point "It is only Pakistan which is doing SOMETHING" .
Yes sure something , but again we will keep saying that NOT ENOUGH. He himself will never say they are doing enough , cause much of their regional policies are in contridiction with "Eliminating Terror basis and Activities" . maybe ,Musharaf might be committed to change policy but it is going to take him time to do so and he has to admite that or go all out on terrorist , Mulla Millitants and the so called "Religious Schools" that are preaching violence and hatred .
Also , the word "Something" sounds very undiplomatic and funny to me , isn't it?
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Fighting Terror
September 22, 2004 - 08:23 AM
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I think as an American I would disagree with the idea that Pakistan is the only country combating terrorists.
Aside from Us and Pakistan I would say India could do alot more - the Phillipenes is trying to stay ahead of their problems, The Israelis are obviously active, the English are quite active, China could do more - particularly with repect to North Korea - The Jordanians are doing alot as well to be generally helpful -
- the Syrians and Iranians are the opposite from helpful.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Fighting Terror
September 22, 2004 - 08:25 AM
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I think as an American I would disagree with the idea that Pakistan is the only country combating terrorists.
Aside from Us and Pakistan I would say India could do alot more - the Phillipenes is trying to stay ahead of their problems, The Israelis are obviously active, the English are quite active, China could do more - particularly with repect to North Korea - The Jordanians are doing alot as well to be generally helpful -
- the Syrians and Iranians are the opposite from helpful.
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Haseeb
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Re: Fighting Terror
September 22, 2004 - 08:41 AM
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I can't single out countries here , if one stays with them then I wouldn't call this "Fight against terror" a success .
I think the whole world in general has oneway or the other acted , taken from freezing assets to fighting them face to face .
Its only that some are responsible for some acts of terror , and they have to do much more then the others . To make for it .
I think Pakistan's support for the Taliban (when knowing that they are a suppressive , terror supported and terror housing regime ) is enough to put it in that list .
I really have faith in this that , if Pakistan is sincere in controlling terrorists and stoping their activities and movements . It will have a strong effect on our security .I do beleive , they are not doing enough . They can do alot more , and they have to . The world has to tell them else in a language that they are needed to act .
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Fighting Terror
September 22, 2004 - 10:02 AM
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Yes I agree - but the single most important thing that Pakistan must do - is ensure its nuclear arsinal against radical Islamists both inside the country and accross the boarder.
That is where the greatest danger lies where Pakistan is concerned.
The other major step is to clean up their northern boarder.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Fighting Terror
September 23, 2004 - 01:20 AM
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I am looking at the bigger picture - it doesn't get much bigger than nuclear weapons falling into the hands of terrorists.
Al Qaeda gettingtheir hands on Nukes represents a worst case enerio for the world.
I obviously also agree that shutting down the whahabbi schools is important - as far as exporting militants - perhaps you did not understand properly when I said - "clean up the northern boarder" - which is where they pass into your cuontry and hide out.
Right now they are all on Paks northern boarder because WE are on the south Afghani boarber.
As far as will we turn on Musharrif - not likely if he "stays bought" so to speak.
Palestinian - You really don't think things through very carefully. Musharrif has nuclear weapons - that makes him difficult to just knock off.
What is more - we were working with the Paks in the 80's against the Russians and we never "turned on them" in the sense you are thinking.
It is likily that at some point down the road we will encourage democratic reforms - but later - right now there are more pressing priorities like fighting Al Qaeda.
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Ashraf
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Re: Fighting Terror
September 23, 2004 - 05:31 AM
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Haseeb,
"he has done alot over the years for his country and the place Pakistan today is all tribute to him"?
You must be kidding!. Musharraf is a millitary dictator and the only reason why Americans support him is their mutual interest to fight Al-Qaeda just like when the US supported the Mujahideen to get rid of the Soviets. Once they get rid of Al-Qaeda, they will trash him just like the others. Mark my words.
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Haseeb
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Re: Fighting Terror
September 23, 2004 - 10:08 AM
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YEs Palestienian .He is a millatery dictator but then one can't close an eye on all the good things he has done for Pakistan and its people . He is a reformist too, he has reformed almost every institution during his rule and has came up with good changes . I visited and lived Pakistan for sometimes During Bainazeer, Nawaz Sharif, and Musharaf and I can see what the changes are .
I obviously agree with you that one day he will also suffer the faith of Sadaam or the other millitary ruler of Pakistan in 80s , Zia Ul Haq. No need of marking your words , time will tell .
Luke ,I don't know why at times I see if you are not looking at a bigger picture and you just care about your own security and thats it . Nuclear weapons , sure are one part of its duty to be carefull for . The main point is to control the growing number millitants and to control the religious schools there .
Stop exporting and supporting millitants , and even do further reforms in their political syestem . There still remain highly influencial political figures who think the brining down of Taliban regime was a disaster and that they will keep supporting their remainents . Same goes with fighting Alqaeda .
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Fighting Terror
September 24, 2004 - 01:45 AM
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Well to begin Haseeb please remember that Saddam DID attack Israel during the first Gulf war in 91'
He was shooting Scuds at Tel Aviv remember? You may have been too young.
I don't think there is really any question that Kim Jung IL would press some buttons if we tried to take him out.
He has a much greater arsinal than Saddam ever did.
I think you are forgetting that between sanctions and the inspections directly following the war in 91' - Saddam was stripped of his long range ballistic missles.
North Korea has plenty. So they would certianly do it.
And I submit to Kiaser that simply being "right" is not the only consideration in warfare.
If we took on Kim Jung IL - would anyone think we were "wrong" to do so? He is obviously evil.
But the tremendous cost of the war would make it unwise at this point.
And Haseeb - please do not mischaracterize me - my mind is not limited to military solutions - in fact if you go to the topic on Israel/Palestine you will see I am advising peaceful negotiations.
But please since you are the expert - tell me - what grass roots movement would you suggest for creating any kind of sanity on North Korea?
How would YOU deal with Kim Jung IL? Please give me the non-violent method.
Right now we are using diplomacy and leaning on China to tighten the leash on North Korea - but this is only a containment policy which buys us a little time.
please give me your solution.
You asked how many civilians on each side of the Iraq conflict - I just gave you the numbers - civilians included.
I can't think of anyone in America who intends to try to take out Pakistan.
We are also not interested in pushing him around -
Haseeb - you have a funny way of asking questions - first you critisize us for not working for democracy in Pakistan - then you get indignant when I tell you why we are not doing it.
Musharrif is being helpful - so I think it unwise for us to try to support movements in Pakistan - even democratic movements - which challenge his rule.
If we support subversive groups - even peaceful ones - Musharrif could well become less cooperative.
He IS the man in charge of Pakistan - if he wants to make it a democracy - great - if not we are not going to push him.
Our main concern is his actions regarding fighting terrorists.
I guess I really don't understand what you are driving at Haseeb - You are whining about us not pushing for democracy in Pakistan - so I said "what would you have us do - invade Pakistan?"
maybe you are not familiar with english - I'll translate - I was presenting the invasion of Pakistan as a stupid and unworkable idea.
You were the one who kept asking why we do not push for democracy in Pakistan - the answer is simple - because we have no real option to push for it against Musharrif's will unless we take Musharrif out of power - I don't think taking Mushariff out of power is now - or ever will be a desirable goal for us.
Take Iran for example - I do NOT want to see a US invasion there.
I also do NOT want to see them gain nuclear weapons - 1 because they have far too many ties to terrorist groups - and 2 because it would bring them into confrontation with Israel - and that could be disasterous and destabilize the region.
so - personally I think the problem in Iran is with the unelected Clerics - who disqualified most of the reform candidates last year.
But 70% of the people in Iran are at odds with their government and want reform - they want more democracy and less theocracy.
So in this case I think America must quietly try to support the reformers in anyway - and through whatever channels possible. Here is a situation where a "grassroots" movement might really work.
I just think you are smoking too much Hash if you beleive that a "grassroots" movement would work in a place like North Korea.
Our options in dealing with North Korea are few.
So please excuse me if see that in stark terms.
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Cicero
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Re: Fighting Terror
September 24, 2004 - 04:25 AM
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Musharraf is *used* (dont you watch the news, where EXACT that word is used for him) by USA to "fight" terorism in and near Pakistan. USA assumes they done more than enough, by just writing off debts that Pakistan had owed to america.
Americans always protect their interests well, currently Musharraf is in the middle of those efforts. When USA has no interests, they switch to isolation mode. (and alliances break then). I'll let Palestinian finish, what will happen to Musharraf at that time.
Ave Futuria
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Fighting Terror
September 24, 2004 - 04:51 AM
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obviously - he is being used.
And the point Haseeb - is that he IS the man in charge of Pakistan - the Americans main priority is seeing that his weapons don't fall in the hands of Al Qaeda.
So while I personally would love to see democracy and plurarlism in Pakistan - that is a VERY delicate situation -
And like I said - he is in chrage - so what good does it do the US to antagonize him?
If we tried to push democracy in Pakistan too hard - he could give Al Qaeda these weapons - remember Pakistan was working with the Taliban not too long ago.
Haseeb - the US is not God - we have to deal with situations as we find them.
If we can convince Musharrif peacefully to cut his ties with Al Qaeda - and instead turn against them - that is a major blow to Al Qaeda.
And he does not seem quite the psycho that Saddam is - he has not to my knowledge dropped chemical weapons on any segments of his population.
He has been fighting with India - but not like the Iran/Iraq war which killed 1 million.
Anyway Haseeb - you have been critical of America for its actions in Iraq - what would you have us do - invade Pakistan, remove Musharrif - instill a democracy.
Like I said - Pakistan has nuclear weapons - things could get a bit messy.
You asked if having nukes would have changed America's mind about taking on Saddam -
isn't it obvious - of course - it changes the equation - it means he can cause much more destruction in war.
it means the war could have a much higher cost.
In my opinion the worst dictatorship in the world right now - and worse than Saddam was - is Kim Jung IL in North Korea.
That guy is just a pscho - but they have Nukes - and a 1 million man army -
They also have long range ballistic missles - and they could EASILY strike our allies in both Japan and South Korea -
So it would be alot harder than Iraq - not the post-war period - but the actual war period.
Fighting North Korea would be like fighting Nazi Germany - it would be a catostrophic war.
millions would well die in that conflict - Probably 500,000 American soldiers - 3 or 4 times as many North Koreans - Japanese and South Korean cities would be attacked - Kim Jung IL would not hesitate to attack a civilian population.
So please Haseeb understand the difference.
You look with Horror at the War in Iraq - that was really a relatively small war - all together about 1100 Americans and about 30,000 Iraqi are dead - a large number yes.
But don't you think it is a bit different if you are talking about removing a dictator with a powerful army - and nuclear weapons?
America lost over 200,000 soldiers fighting the Japanese.
can you see the difference?
Pakistan is cooperating - if they were cooperating with the other side this wold be a very different and more difficult conflict.
So while I would love to see democracy there - first things first - who knows - If Musharrif thinks he'll win the election - then maybe he'll agree to it..
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Haseeb
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Re: Fighting Terror
September 24, 2004 - 04:56 AM
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" Haseeb - you have a funny way of asking questions - first you critisize us for not working for democracy in Pakistan - then you get indignant when I tell you why we are not doing it "
Luke , go back to the forum and read it . Come up with the statement where I have critisized you for not working for democracy in Pakistan , I would be glade to see if I have written something such . Else ,simply take back your sentence . Its not addressed at my points .
And Luke, I have never asked you (America) to do anything , have I in my post in this forum? No , I don't see anything . If you do ,point it out.
Yet again , Where was North Korea in this discussion ? Start a new thread name it whatever you want "Action Korean Freedom " or whatever and If I was intrested I may come and discuss there .
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Cicero
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Re: Fighting Terror
September 24, 2004 - 05:50 AM
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List of democracies in the world i ever expanding.
List we all want to see in reality is list of places where human rights and freedoms are respected. That list is short.
I dont see democracy as being equal to place of good living and freedom. You can have democracy that breaks human rights and freedoms.
Ave Futuria
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Cicero
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Re: Fighting Terror
September 24, 2004 - 05:52 AM
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Killing is still killing. Just numbers vary from case to the case. What is important is *justification*, *legality*, *broader implication*. At least at the latter, it was largelly ignored before March 2003.
Ave Futuria
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Haseeb
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Re: Fighting Terror
September 24, 2004 - 10:37 AM
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Where is the point of invading Pakistan in this discussion? Who came up with that ?
My question was , to just make it clear that you guys knew Saddam had no real big weapons or power to resist your might and that he would be a simple guy to get out of the way . The way of what , who knows . This war had nothing to do with WMDs , Threats Iraq was called to be posing . But , there must have been another reason behind it. You are coming to it and I am sure many others would do in coming time .
Look , the last thing one would want to see in that region is the back of Musharaf . He is a right man for this occassion ,he has the guts and power for dealing with issues. Its only that he has to be well "used " as you put it .
Also , befor going in to war in Irag many from this side predicted that Israel , or other Arab states would be attacked . Did it happen , fortunatly NOT . Now ,is the assumption of Japan or South Korea maybe attacked , the same as that one ? Don't make it an excuse for going to war .
Luke, Your mind is limmitted to MILLITARY ACTION only when it comes to dealing with problem , you always see it from that angle . Fighting it , and fighting it with violence.Thats it , and dectating terms ! Cooperate , and try and change things on grassroot level , leadership changes won't do good untill things are ruin from grass roots.
" what would you have us do - invade Pakistan, remove Musharrif - instill a democracy" GOD ! Where did get this from ? We are wittnessing how democracy is being installed in IRaq , so whom on earth would dare to ask for this . Not atleast me , never ever in my life ! I have goodwill for the brotherly and friendly people of Pakistan , and I admire Musharaf in many cases . He is a hero for lots of people in this part of the world , the way he has dealt with corruption for example is a way forward for other states to follow .
"1100 Americans and about 30,000 Iraqi are dead " how many civillians on both sides?
Luke, just try and think of someother alternatives to dealing with world crisis then violence and Over throwing , invading and attacking as solutions . Just do it .
Let their people take action if they want , do you know whats Musharaf's approval rates in the country? The last time I saw it on a Pakistani independent Channel (www.geo.tv) it was more then 80 percent.
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