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iman sadiqyar
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Gay guinee pigs
July 17, 2004 - 06:37 AM
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God has created pairs.If there is electrons,there are protons,if there is metals,there is non-metals too.
there is men,there is also women then why there is a need of same sex marriages.on what circumstances same sexes get married?
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Jimmy Pluijmers
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Re: Gay guinee pigs
July 17, 2004 - 03:12 AM
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I see your point Eeman, when you say that homosexuality isn't like it's "meant" to be (by God or by nature). But this doesn't mean it's not natural. Homosexuality is even a quite common thing in nature.
For instance dolphins and guinnee pigs often appear to have 'gay' feelings (research showed that 10% of the guinnee pigs are 'gay'). The only difference with mankind is that we have a brain to reason things, whereas animals do not.
Sex in the animal world is (nearly always) a matter of the instinct to reproduce in order to survive, whereas for people sex is a matter of pleasure (we don't feel the need to have sex to reproduce ourselfs).
So if 2 people of the same sex wish to get married, it's because they feel (sexually) attracted to eachother, which is something completely natural, even if it's not "meant" that way.
Maybe if guinnee pigs could marry you would have gay marriages for them too 
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Ray Ovac
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Re: Gay guinee pigs
July 17, 2004 - 04:57 AM
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Originally posted by jimp
I see your point Eeman, when you say that homosexuality isn't like it's "meant" to be (by God or by nature). But this doesn't mean it's not natural. Homosexuality is even a quite common thing in nature.
For instance dolphins and guinnee pigs often appear to have 'gay' feelings (research showed that 10% of the guinnee pigs are 'gay'). The only difference with mankind is that we have a brain to reason things, whereas animals do not.
It is also common in nature for animals to eat either their own or other animals' feces...yet we, as humans, would treat humans who engage in this behavior as "abnormal". It is "normalcy" that completely defines abnormal psychology. A neurosis is a behavior or condition that is modestly abnormal and a psychosis is one that is more so.
While I certainly do not believe that society has the right to prevent homosexuals from engaging in private behavior with each other behind closed doors that does not harm anyone...I do not believe that society somehow "needs" to either accept this behavior as normal (because it is permitted) nor does society have an obligation to promote it. Even when one completely throws out the religous arguments, there are a myriad of reasons that society will never fully accept homosexuality. If for no other reason, because it is both a voluntary behavior and it is rare.
God Bless
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Jimmy Pluijmers
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Re: Gay guinee pigs
July 18, 2004 - 04:47 AM
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Those are wise words Rayovac, and I think your right about most of it.
But I disagree on one point. I do believe that it's possible for gay people to eventually be accepted by mainstream society as you call it. As example I take my home country, The Netherlands. If you look at the position of gay people 50 years ago, they were scum of the society, mentally ill people (untill very recently the official term for gay was homophile, 'phile' indicating a disease).
Now Holland is one of the most advanced countries, concerning gay people. We were the first country to make it legal for gay people to marry (don't count Vegas..), and every year there are many events like the "gayparade" and "gaylimpics" (not sure they actually call it that way). They are accepted quite widely now, especially by the young generation. The most disaprovements are made by strict protestants (no offence) and old people (but many old people are very racist/ discriminating anyway).
Therefor I believe that in 50 years homosexuality will be nearly as accepted as hetrosexuality. But I guess will that see in 50 years
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Jimmy Pluijmers
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Re: Gay guinee pigs
July 18, 2004 - 11:07 AM
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The fact that homosexuality is regarded as abnormal has to do with the contemporary society, in which it's just starting to get less a taboo (mainly because in most religions it is seen as a sin...).
For instance, a few thousand years ago in the old Greece (and in the Roman society too), homosexuality was widly accepted and even promoted (this regarding the travelling armies...). So it isn't completely obvious that nowadays it's badly tolerated.
I think it's essential to accept gay people in this society and not see them as abnormal, cause in the end, how can you define perfectly normal (obesity isn't "normal", do you want to discriminate fat people too?).
And truly accepting gay people means also giving them the same rights as heterosexuals, including the right to marry whom they love.
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Ray Ovac
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Re: Gay guinee pigs
July 18, 2004 - 11:54 AM
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Originally posted by jimp
I think it's essential to accept gay people in this society and not see them as abnormal, cause in the end, how can you define perfectly normal (obesity isn't "normal", do you want to discriminate fat people too?).
And truly accepting gay people means also giving them the same rights as heterosexuals, including the right to marry whom they love.
I absolutely agree with you 100%...I don't support discrimination of any group of people for any reason whatsoever, either.
What I believe, unfortunately, is that it is one thing for laws to be formulated that do not allow groups to be discriminated against (we are not permitted to discriminate against the KKK or Nazi groups...and as much as I personally despise these groups, also support their rights to not be discriminated against)...but you cannot *legislate* "acceptance"...and I believe that homosexuality (as well as obesity, unfortunately) will never be accepted by mainstream society. This is not a commentary on either obesity nor homosexuality nor a description of my views on either...it is simply an assessment of society at large.
Regarding the behaviors that Romans were willing to accept as "normal", I also believe that there were socially acceptable activities then (public orgies, animal and juman sacrifices, beastiality) that certain ideaologies of the time made socially acceptable (like the homosexual practices of soldiers taken away from home and forced to live with only men for years and years at a time). In today's society at large, though, these ideaologies nor conditions (years away only with men) do not exist...do society does not accept it for the most part. (One interresting exception, by the way, is with men serving long periods of time in prison...where homosexual behavior is more common than in mainstream society. Much like with the Roman soldiers, these men are forced to spend extended periods of time under tight conditions living with people of the same sex. However, even this is really not socially accepted because these men are already cast outs due to their crimes unfortunately and because they still represent a very small portion of the society at large. Also, because their behavior is voluntary...although it the conditions that promote it are not...society has a tendency to shun it. In the case of obesity, while many believe that it is also voluntary, there is a bit more acceptance because there tends to be a bit less belief that it is totally voluntary).
Again, these are not necessarily my own thoughts...they are observations of society and its general response to such issues over the years (and the futility of trying to impose acceptance through legislation).
God Bless
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monique
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Re: Gay guinee pigs
July 20, 2004 - 04:08 AM
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i think this is a super interesting debate and one that is really important to me-
i disagree that homosexuality is a voluntary action,i think it is part of a person's nature- and i think that dividing the world into heterosexuals and homosexuals is oversimplifying the situation- in the mid 1950s, a researcher by the name of Alfred Kinsey did research on people's sexual behaviour, and he found that there was actually 7 different gradients of sexual behaviour (ranging from 100% heteresexual, to 100% homosexual)- the heterosexual/homosexual divide is also imposing a western view of the situation- in many cultures same-sex practices are accepted but not termed as homosexual-
interesting fact- did you know that the word heterosexual and homosexual were "invented" in the same research paper in the late 19th century? this seems to suggest that the concept of heterosexual could not exist (in fact did not) without the concept of homosexual, and the the two ideas are in fact dependent on each other to survive- for example american politicians calling same-sex marriage a threat to the institution of marriage- you have to wonder then how strong this institution called heterosexuality/marriage if someone else's actions completely outside your own would threaten your marriage-
i believe that sexuality and gender are all on a continuum and that you cannot oversimplify between men/women, straight/gay... there are so many different manifestations of human sexuality, and instead of trying to prescribe one interpretation of it, we should accept that there are many varieties, that to me at least make the world a whole lot more interesting than viewing everything as man/woman heterosexual relationships-
also, there is a very rich history of same-sex love and sexuality being accepted in all cultures, from the two-spirited shamans of pre-colonial america, to the hijras in india, to lesbian vegetarian communes in China in the year 1000, to women in the victorian era when marriage was viewed as convenience and status, to early mystical sufism in Islam, etc... the list goes on- this history has been erased because history has been written mostly by straight white men (just like women's history and black history was erased)-
i have studied this topic extensively over the past 3 years, and i would be glad to discuss it with anyone- all my research suprised me with the extent of what we have not been told and how differently we can think about this subject-
in the end though, it comes down to it being wrong to impose your personal view of sexuality on someone else and seek to erase their presence from public life- it is necessary to address how all our cultural representations (media, books, etc...) are predominantly white straight male interpretations of the world (which is why when we do see women, blacks, gays on television or elsewhere they often reinforce stereotypes)-
eager to hear your thoughts-
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iman sadiqyar
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Re: Gay guinee pigs
July 20, 2004 - 07:52 AM
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dear jimmy & rayovac
thanks.
you know in Afghanistan in most cities the homosexuality is much common than any other country (as i think).this is because in those societies women are not allowed to go out from their homes.whenever they go out they have to wear a long veil which covers the whole body and no one can see their face.In Afghanistan it is common due to this reason that no one can see a women and no one has relations with a girl.therefore they should have sex because the natural phenamenon.
but my question is that in those highly developed countries there is no need of homosexuality.
if u say that animals do have the nature of homosexuality,then there will be no difference b/w humans and animals.
if u say that the old romans did this,dont u think that they were ignorant or because of that they had obligation, so they did this.
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Gene Winston Owens, Sr.
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Re: Gay guinee pigs
July 21, 2004 - 02:18 AM
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a long long long time ago we were all a frog or such but a long long time before that we were all a protozoa or such, I beleive protozoa are A-Sexual, but before we were those creatures, we were a tree or such and before all of that we were a stone or 3,. me
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Martin Kuplens-Ewart
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Re: Gay guinee pigs
July 21, 2004 - 11:50 AM
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It is most amusing to see a discussion on sexuality turn so rapidly to guinea pigs and faeces - this thread had reached that point far quicker than usual.
More interesting, however, is the approach to human sexuality from a functional perspective, as engendered by Eeman's remarks. I think that it really is an interesting glimpse of the difficulty that the semantics of the issue present. What is homosexuality? Does it mean engaging in sexual activities with a partner of the same sex? Could it be something "more" than that? This, really, is why I believe that terms such as "gay" and "lesbian" (among others) really are powerful. In my view, being "gay" is quite different from being a man who on occasion has sexual relations with another man. To me it means that that person craves contact with males, yes, on a physical level, but also, very importantly, on an emotional one. It is not because women are unavailable or veiled - that is, to my mind, two guys dealing with a need, as it were. How to verbalise it... while it may not happen for everyone, nor be right for everyone, it is the sensation of seeing another man and wanting to be held, to hold, to love, him; in the same way that a heterosexual male might experience such feelings for a woman.
Does that make sense?
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Cicero
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Re: Gay guinee pigs
July 22, 2004 - 04:25 AM
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WE like sports, dont we? WE feel like a big band of groupies, when our team wins Thats already half gay.
Ave Futuria
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Gray
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Re: Gay guinee pigs
July 23, 2004 - 01:15 AM
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The concept of what s natural is open to interpritation. Animals do not 'naturally' have sex recreationally. Travelling in metal boxes is not natural. Clothing is not natural. Give me three examples of fashion in the animal kingdom, that is choice not plumage. Tel me how restrictive dieting to control weight is natural. On fact show me one segment of your life that is natural - ie if you were an animal you would behave in this way.
As has been said many times on TIG, there are examples of animals displaying homosexual tendancies.
Sexuality is not a matter of choice in the way that skin color is not a matter of choice.
The much vaunted item in Leviticus that is much postulated in arguments relating the Bible to sexuality is never fully explored. If you continue reading you will find that misbehaing children should be stonned to death.
Legal issues: Marriage is a legal contract, why should a couple regardles of gender not be allowed to enter into a civil agreement. Why should same sex couples be treated differently than other groups?
As Martin points out homosexuality ois not neccesarily confined to sex. By deffinitiion homosexuals wish to enter in relationships with same sex individuals, while sex is innecitiable the matter is as much about emotional connection as it is about genital stimulation.
I would say that while Kinsey did a great job of showing that people had sex his methods and research were deffinitiely skewed.
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Jackie Elston
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Re: Gay guinee pigs
August 31, 2004 - 01:50 AM
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Anyone should be able to get married to whoever they want. How dare anyone tell other people how to live their lives? Gay marriage poses no "threat" to anyone. Do they think homosexuals are going to form an army and attack all the straight people once they get married? Oh my god! It's a conspiracy!!! Give me a break.
I hate when people bring up the bullsh*t religious reasons of why they think homosexuals shouldn't get married. First of all (at least in this country) there are a lot of different spiritual belief systems, so religion shouldn't even be an issue. And even if you are a Christian, you shouldn't believe everything the bible says. As GB mentioned, it says misbehaving kids should be stoned to death. I've never read the bible but my mom has and she said it seems like if you do anything wrong they think you should be stoned to death.
Anyway it's horrible how a lot of people treat homosexuals. A lot of people try to keep it a secret so they won't have to deal with the abuse. Nobody should have to hide the way they feel. Discriminating against them is like saying people that prefer rock and roll are inferior to people that like rap better. Homosexuals are people just like anyone else. The only difference is their sexual preference. They deserve the same rights that any person should have.
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Danny Sweeney
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Re: Gay guinee pigs
September 30, 2004 - 07:28 AM
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Originally posted by SilentSorceress
I've never read the bible
Well perhaps yhou should before you start going on about what christians do and don't believe.
Marriage is alot more than just a legal contract.
It's a promise made before God to commit yourselves totally to another person for the rest of your life.
Homosexuality is a very highly debated issue within religious groups - personally i don't have a problem with homo couples 'marrying' the the sense GB mentioned - the legal rights to their partner.
But as a single member of a church with 1.2 billion people in it i can't say what the church should.
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Eric
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Re: Gay guinee pigs
October 12, 2004 - 08:16 AM
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[i]Originally posted by Lone-Wolf Marriage is alot more than just a legal contract.
It's a promise made before God to commit yourselves totally to another person for the rest of your life.[/B]
so will all gay marriages fail because god dosent like them? 50% of straight marriages fail... and god cant be brought into this because [in this world] marriage is part of law not religion. so the question shouldnt be "is gay marriage moral or right" but "is it lawful". is banning inter-racial or inter-religious marriage lawful? i think this falls along the same lines.
P.s. i was raised Catholic[one of 1.2B]and i want suicidal when i found out i was gay b/c i was so convinced that i was and "abomination agaist god & nature". im agnostic now b/c i dont think i want to believe in a god who hates me.
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