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Gene Winston Owens, Sr.
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Cosmina, Even A 3 Yearold Learns to Denie,. me
July 15, 2004 - 12:38 PM
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Jack.J
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Re: Saddam facing judgement
July 26, 2004 - 11:26 AM
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SADDAM IS A FREAK. HE MURDER MANY PEOPLE AND SHOULD HAVE TO SUFFER ALL THERE PAIN
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Ashraf
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Re: Saddam facing judgement
July 27, 2004 - 04:37 AM
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cosmina,
You are absolutely right. All those who committed crimes against humanity should stand in trial and face justice...be it Saddam Hussain or George W. Bush. If judgement of that specific trial is going to be based on the number of innocent people killed, then I think Bush and his father will win the first 'award'!.
May I remind the readers that the US sanctions which lasted more than 10 years after the second Gulf War resulted to the deaths of 0.5 Million Iraqi children due to lack of food and medicine.
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Ray Ovac
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Re: Saddam facing judgement
July 27, 2004 - 12:43 PM
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Originally posted by Palestinian
cosmina,
You are absolutely right. All those who committed crimes against humanity should stand in trial and face justice...be it Saddam Hussain or George W. Bush. If judgement of that specific trial is going to be based on the number of innocent people killed, then I think Bush and his father will win the first 'award'!.
May I remind the readers that the US sanctions which lasted more than 10 years after the second Gulf War resulted to the deaths of 0.5 Million Iraqi children due to lack of food and medicine.
Pal:
May you also remind readers that these sanctions were not "US" sanctions but "UN" sanctions. Therefore, almost *all* of our nations voted for them.
You may also want to remind readers about *why* so many people died during the sanctions...it was not the sanctions themselves but how Saddam used them to gain political leverage (through the suffering of his own people) by diverting aid money not to feed and provide medical aid but to to bribe leaders of the UN and elsewhere so that he could get the money to line his own pockets.
Perhaps you are not aware of this:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/...ers_040129.html
and this list of people who took money from the children of Iraq:
Russia
The Companies of the Russian Communist Party: 137 million
The Companies of the Liberal Democratic Party: 79.8 million
The Russian Committee for Solidarity with Iraq: 6.5 million and 12.5 million (2 separate contracts)
Head of the Russian Presidential Cabinet: 90 million
The Russian Orthodox Church: 5 million
France
Charles Pasqua, former minister of interior: 12 million
Trafigura (Patrick Maugein), businessman: 25 million
Ibex: 47.2 million
Bernard Merimee, former French ambassador to the United Nations: 3 million
Michel Grimard, founder of the French-Iraqi Export Club: 17.1 million
Syria
Firas Mostafa Tlass, son of Syria's defense minister: 6 million
Turkey
Zeynel Abidin Erdem: more than 27 million
Lotfy Doghan: more than 11 million
Indonesia
Megawati Sukarnoputri: 11 million
Spain
Ali Ballout, Lebanese journalist: 8.8 million
Yugoslavia
The Socialist Party: 22 million
Kostunica's Party: 6 million
Canada
Arthur Millholland, president and CEO of Oilexco: 9.5 million
Italy
Father Benjamin, a French Catholic priest who arranged a meeting between the pope and Tariq Aziz: 4.5 million
Roberto Frimigoni: 24.5 million
United States
Samir Vincent: 7 million (private citizen, Iraqi - American)
Shakir Alkhalaji: 10.5 million (private citizen, Iraqi - American)
United Kingdom
George Galloway, member of Parliament: 19 million
Mujaheddin Khalq: 36.5 million
South Africa
Tokyo Saxwale: 4 million
Jordan
Shaker bin Zaid: 6.5 million
The Jordanian Ministry of Energy: 5 million
Fawaz Zureikat: 6 million
Toujan Al Faisal, former member of Parliament: 3 million
Lebanon
The son of President Lahoud: 5.5 million
Egypt
Khaled Abdel Nasser: 16.5 million
Emad Al Galda, businessman and Parliament member: 14 million
Palestinian Territories
The Palestinian Liberation Organization: 4 million
Abu Al Abbas: 11.5 million
Qatar
Hamad bin Ali Al Thany: 14 million
Libya
Prime Minister Shukri Ghanem: 1 million
Chad
Foreign minister of Chad: 3 million
Brazil
The October 8th Movement: 4.5 million
Myanmar (Burma)
The minister of the Forests of Myanmar: 5 million
Ukraine
The Social Democratic Party: 8.5 million
The Communist Party: 6 million
The Socialist Party: 2 million
The FTD oil company: 2 million "
Let's see: Russia, France, Syria, Jordan, Lebannon, Egypt, Libya, Qatar, PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES....
hmmm, so now we go from "US" sanctions to "UN" sanctions to "UN sanctions being diverted for bribes" to even "UN officials being part of the corruption":
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/...f_040420-1.html
and people being murdered to prevent them from telling the truth:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,124658,00.html
Honestly, it would appear as though Iraq would have been much better off if these HAD been "US Sanctions"...but they were not.
Let me ask just one more question, because I am pretty sure that you are going to deny this and say that your original claim that these were not "UN" but were actually "US" sanctions was right:
How did the US, on its own, enforce sanctions from every nation in the world to Iraq? Sanctions are voluntary...and especially on the borders of Iraq it would be easy for neighboring nations to ignore the "US" sanctions and ship all of the supplies and sell all of the goods that they wanted to in Iraq. So, why didn't Iran or Kuwait or Turkey or Syria or Jordan or Saudi Arabia simply buy oil and sell goods to Iraq? Certainly many of these nations don't care about what the US wants, so why not make some money off of the oil? Why not help out their fellow Arab neighbor in times of need?
The answer, of course, is that they were following the *UN Sanctions*...and as members of the UN, they agreed to support them.
So, how were these still "US" Sanctions?
Further, what accountability do you place on Saddam?
What accountability do you place on all of those who Saddam bribed to take away aid to his people?
What accountability do you place on the UN members who were corrupt and part of this scandal?
What accountability do you place on *all* of the nations that voted for, supported, and adhered to the sanctions?
It sounds to me like you don't hold anyone responsible for anything, only the US.
Oh, and one more point:
Who led the effort to get Iraq *out* of the sanctions and get Saddam *out* of power?
The US and coalition...and they saved tens of thousands of lives already as a result. Don't believe me? Read on.
Do you know how many people (both from inadquate food, healthcare, *AND* war...both civilian and military) have died *since* the war and the reconstruction???
12,000
This is over a 19 month period. Think I'm not telling the truth? Go here (it is an *Anti - war / Anti - US* site):
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm
So, let's do the math:
12,000 dead (total - lack of food, lack of healthcare, military dead, civilian casualties, terrorists and their victims)
19 months
12,000 / 19 = 632 Iraqis dead per month due to US/Coalition War and subsequent reconstruction
Your statistics:
500,000 "Children" (I think that you meant everyone, but if you only meant children then it just gets worse for your argument...so. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt).
12 years after first Iraq War (first Bush)
= 144 months
500,000 / 144 = 3,472 Iraqis dead per month during sanctions.
So, let's recap:
During the UN sanctions when Saddam was taking money from the Iraqi people and bribing others to pad his pockets and the US did nothing,
3,472 Iraqis died per month
During both the war and the US "Occupation" (your words, not mine) which according to you is from a "puppet" government and is "slavery" and a disaster for Iraq,
632 Iraqis died per month
(by the way, this number is much, much smaller since major combat has ended).
Look at it this way (Based on *YOUR* numbers):
If the US had removed Saddam from power back in 1992, assuming the same number of Iraqi casualties as this time, then the number of Iraqi people (much more if you are right about the 500,000 only being "children" who would have been saved is:
500,000 - 12,000 = 482,000 Iraqi lives saved.
...and yet for 12 years, nobody did *ANYTHING*.
Let's look at this just one more way, ok?
Had the US *not* gone in to Iraq with the coalition 19 months ago to remove Saddam, there is no reason to believe that the rest of the world would have done anything differently...so, let's look at how many *additional* Iraqi civilians would have died:
19 months x 3,472 per month = 65,972 Iraqis dead in the last 19 months without war and Saddam's removal from power
Actual deaths: 12,000
65,972 - 12,000 = 53,972 Iraqis alive today who would not be without the war and Saddam removed from power.
So, in essence, based on *YOUR* data the war and subsequent "occupation" (your words, it is actually a reconstruction toward a totally elected and free government in less than 6 months) *SAVED* 53,972 Iraqi lives.
Which, but the way, I believe is compeltely true.
Further, every day that goes on this number will continue to rise and the validation of the war and reconstruction will grow.
God Bless
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Ashraf
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Re: Saddam facing judgement
July 28, 2004 - 06:31 AM
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US SANCTIONS ON IRAQ CREATE A LOST GENERATION OF IRAQI YOUTHS
Nine years after the Gulf War, the United States-led international sanctions on Iraq are being accused of causing a humanitarian disaster and creating a lost generation of Iraqi youths. The German coordinator of the United Nation’s (UN) humanitarian programs in Iraq resigned in protest over the inadequacy of the oil-for-food program administered by the UN.
In August 1990, a full economic embargo was imposed on Iraq, prohibiting the country from exporting any product and placing strangling restrictions on its imports. A few years later the United States and Britain led the United Nations in creating an oil-for-food program that only allows Iraq to export a set amount of oil every 6 months in order for it to buy food. Currently, Iraq produces around 2.6 million barrels of oil per day, but its capacity to produce is being hindered by its inability to import spare
parts in order to repair its infrastructure.
Hans von Sponeck, the German coordinator of the United Nation’s (UN) humanitarian programs in Iraq, began this year to speak out against the effects of sanctions, noting that the oil-for-food program is inadequate to meet the nutritional needs of the Iraqi population. He resigned this February to protest the effects of the sanctions just as his predecessor Dennis Halliday did in 1998. The UN tightly controls the purchase of food which in effect is nutritionally inadequate for the Iraqi population - the key reason von Sponeck resigned. UNICEF released a survey last August that revealed that there were half a million additional deaths of children under five since 1990.
"We have to begin to find quick ways to end this drama for the population here. Otherwise disintegration of the social fabric will accelerate at speed and we will ultimately have a price to pay that is much higher than the price we want to see the Iraqis pay at this point," said von Sponeck.
The country has been forced to cut oil production by 10% because spare parts are frequently vetoed by the US in sanctions monitoring committees. The UN has created an itemized list of products that Iraq is not allowed to import because they have been labeled as "dual-use" products. The list includes minute things such as lead pencils. Along with the sanctions, the
US and Britain have been carrying out a slow-paced bombing campaign for the last 14 months. It is now the longest US military attack since the Vietnam War.
Iraq produced about 3 million barrels per day before the 1991 Gulf War, which also caused extensive damage to its civilian infrastructure and oil industry. In June 1991, US Pentagon planners - the Defense Department of the US government -admitted that targets were selected during the Gulf War to "amplify the economic and psychological impact" of the sanctions.
A joint letter, signed by seventy members of the US House of Representatives was released on February 1 and urged President Clinton to lift the sanctions. The Clinton State Department has said it does not anticipate lifting the sanctions as long as Saddam Hussein is in power. Eighty-six activists were also arrested outside of the White House in February when they refused to leave the front doors of the US mission to the UN. The protesters included Kathy Kelly, Director of Voices in The
Wilderness a US-based organization who has been opposing US policy on Iraq since 1991. She is observing a 28-day hunger fast to call attention to the effects of the sanctions.
While international attention has focused on the death toll amongst Iraqi elders and infants, the sanctions have also cut off the Iraqi medical and scientific communities from outside advancements and severely undermined the education system. As families drain their wealth and sell their possessions to survive, child labor has been on the rise. Voices inside and outside of Iraq are now speaking of a "lost generation."
SOURCES: Proactivist photo-essay, "86 Protesters Arrested in NYC Outside the UN," http://www.proactivist.com/photojournal/nycprotest.html; Phyllis Bennis, "U.S. ignores wake-up call on sanctions," op-ed, Baltimore Sun, February 21, 2000; American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, "Members of Congress Call for Lifting, Announce New Measures to Ease Economic Sanctions Against Iraq," press release, February 16, 2000; Agence France
Presse, "US presidential hopeful McCain calls for overthrow of…," February 16, 2000; BBC, "‘Lost generation’ faces bleak future," February 14, 2000; BBC, "UN sanctions rebel resigns," February 14, 2000; http://leb.net/epic/;
http://iraqaction.org/
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Rashid
连接： Mar 19, 2002
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Re: Saddam facing judgement
July 28, 2004 - 07:01 AM
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I think the issue of Saddam Hussiuene been humiliated or the arab world been humiliated due to the state in which the former iraqi leader finds himself in is out of place.Although i do not support the invasion of Iraq by foreign forces i believe that no one is above the law be it president or prime minister and at a point in time one will have to face justice for the crimes that one has committed and that is what i believe suddam should be judged on and not whether is is a former leader or not,what of those humans that he mutilated have their families not gone through humiliation themselves...i think we should try and analyse issues before making judgment.
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Ray Ovac
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Re: Saddam facing judgement
July 28, 2004 - 10:30 AM
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Pal:
Originally posted by Palestinian
Nine years after the Gulf War, the United States-led international sanctions on Iraq...
A few years later the United States and Britain led the United Nations in creating an oil-for-food program...
The UN tightly controls the purchase of food which in effect is nutritionally inadequate for the Iraqi population...
The UN has created an itemized list of products that Iraq is not allowed to import because they have been labeled as "dual-use" products...
So *NOW* it is "US - led international sanctions" and "US and Britain led the United Nations"...but ultimately still voted for, sanctioned, created, and managed by who?
The UN!
Very well, thank you for conceding that point.
Now:
"Along with the sanctions, the US and Britain have been carrying out a slow-paced bombing campaign for the last 14 months. It is now the longest US military attack since the Vietnam War."
Could this have been because of violation of the no - fly zone under UN resolution? Did a single member of the UN question the legitimacy of any of this "bombing campaign"? The reality is that this had been going on (on and off) for the entire 12 or so years after the first Gulf War.
Couldn't this just as easily be rephrased as:
""In spite of the sanctions, Saddam Hussein has been carrying out a campaign of violating UN resolutions in Northern Iraq for the last 14 months causing military flying under UN mandate to institute a slow and deliberate bombing of targets in violation."
This would be just as true, wouldn't it?
Also, I want to make a side note:
I actually don't like where some of this is going between you and me. Although I disagree with you position on the war and "liberation" (my words) or "occupation" (your words) of Iraq, I respect you both as a person and as an advocate for your cause.
I don't believe that your intention is to inflame the debate or spread lies any more than mine is. Instead, we both are eager to give our positions and seek the views of others...this is to be respected on both parts.
While I am sure that sometimes the fact that I am stubbornly unwilling to move on my position is frustrating (as your views are to me), I hope that you realize that this is simply my debate style and not a personal attack on you. In turn, I hope that the same is true with you.
There are probably a number of points that we agree on but have not discussed. For example, as Luke will tell you, I am opposed to the actions taken by the current administration of Israel on Palestine. I believe that Israel has taken advantage of US and world sympathy for nations who are targets of terrorism to use heavy handed and unjust methods for routing - out their enemies. This has, in my opinion, caused undue harm and suffering to many innocent civilians.
While I know that Luke doesn't care for my position on this (although I think that he also has a more moderate but similar position), I suspect (just based on your screen name) that we agree on this point.
In either case, this thread is not the right place for it...but I wanted to make it clear that I respect you as an "intellectual adversary" and respect you as a person. Further, if we are both passionate about these issues it is both of us seek peace and despise human suffering...we just have different views on the causes and appropriate solutions.
So I want to continue to debate with you and discuss these very important issues...I just don't want to make this personal. As I've said before to others, outside of this forum and in person I would love to take you and your wife to dinner with me and my wife or take you to a football game...I am sure that you are a great person. 
We simply disagree on issues, not on each other.
God Bless!
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Ashraf
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Re: Saddam facing judgement
July 28, 2004 - 11:59 AM
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Rayovac,
Is this a new discovery that was hidden from the human intellect or what??
Did anyone deny that the sanctions were imposed by the UN?..but there is a very little difference, my friend..It is the US that enforced it, and it is the US that led this coalition of evil against children and women of Iraq, and it the US that thretened any nation to deal with Iraq outside the scope of the UN resolutions against Iraq. Whenever there was an attempt to lift these demonic sanctions even from fellow Arabs and Muslims, it was the US administration that stood against it with iron and fire..
You realy amaze me of your unbelievable views...you realy do.
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Ray Ovac
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Re: Saddam facing judgement
July 28, 2004 - 12:53 PM
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Originally posted by Palestinian
Rayovac,
Is this a new discovery that was hidden from the human intellect or what??
Did anyone deny that the sanctions were imposed by the UN?..but there is a very little difference, my friend..It is the US that enforced it, and it is the US that led this coalition of evil against children and women of Iraq, and it the US that thretened any nation to deal with Iraq outside the scope of the UN resolutions against Iraq. Whenever there was an attempt to lift these demonic sanctions even from fellow Arabs and Muslims, it was the US administration that stood against it with iron and fire..
You realy amaze me of your unbelievable views...you realy do.
Pal:
This is not a new discovery...however, in your first message you called them "US Sanctions"...I was correcting you. There *is* a big difference and no one can have it both ways. For example, you can't say that the US "defied" the will of the UN by going in to Iraq and then in the exact same argument suggest that somehow the US had this incredible power to prevent the rest of the UN from lifting the sanctions against Iraq. It is either the US or it is the UN...the US has just one vote. They can certainly argue their point, but no more than the rest of the UN. Further, regional intimidation does not work because only a fraction of the total nations in the UN are near Iraq.
So, these were UN sanctions (not US). The US voted for them but so did a majority within the UN.
Also, the managment of the sanctions (especially the oil for food program) was not managed by the US but by a UN group. This group was later found to be completely corrupt, not the US. They took food from the people of Iraq, not the US.
The end of the sanctions and (as my previous message showed) the coalition liberation of Iraq substantially reduced the deaths of Iraqi citizens. Hence, the US was one of the few nations (along with the other coalition members) who stood up to end this and bring aid to Iraq. The numbers don't lie. Even the website:
www.islamonline.net
provides the facts for these numbers. Read my post above, the number of people who died under the 12 years of corruptly - managed sanctions by the UN (not the US) per month is much higher than the number who died during and since the war started in late 2002. You can see these numbers here:
http://www.islamonline.net/english/In_Depth/Iraq_Aftermath/2004/07/article_04.shtml
In essence, the removal of Saddam eliminated a corrupt aid program which was causing the deaths of a large number of Iraqi citizens and even though it was done through warfare has shown immediate results in further reducing the deaths of innocents.
Lastly, I am sorry that you find my views unbelievable...I probably think the same thing about your views. This is precisely why such dialogue is good.
God Bless!
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Ashraf
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Re: Saddam facing judgement
July 29, 2004 - 06:23 AM
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Rayovac,
Let me rephraze what I have said since it seems too difficult for you to understand what I mean:
The sanctions were imposed by the UN but the US led and enforced these sanctions with millitary force, and if you still remember it was the US - not the UN- that enforced the implementation of the 'no-fly zone' plan and it was the US -- not the UN -- that continuously bombed Iraqi cities when there was any 'violation' of these sanctions according to the US standards, and it was the US -- not the UN -- that rejected the continuation of the work of the UN arm inspectors in order to launch its demonic war on Iraq.
It was obvious from this US policy that the US administartion was planning in advance to empty Iraq from any desire to resist this injustice, and to pave the way for more vigoroous intervention in the region. Unfortunately, the US greed will not stop here and will see the same ugly scenario with more countries ..perhaps Syria then Iran or maybe Sudan.
It is arrogance and denial of these facts that make more and more troubles in the Middle East.
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