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Luke Lieberman
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The Sudan
May 27, 2004 - 06:51 AM
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WASHINGTON, Apr 2 (IPS) - The United Nations and aid and human rights groups are warning that the international community is about to witness a genocidal massacre on the scale of the Rwanda ethnic slayings that killed up to 800,000 people exactly one decade ago.
In a report released Friday, Human Rights Watch (HRW) charged that the East African nation's National Islamic Front (NIF) administration is complicit in crimes against humanity committed by government-backed Arab militias in Darfur in the country's west.
The report, 'Darfur in Flames: Atrocities in Western Sudan', accuses Khartoum of recruiting and arming over 20,000 Muslim militiamen, called "Janjaweed", or "men on horseback", to carry out attacks on civilians from the Fur, Masaalit and Zaghawa ethnic groups who, while also Islamic, are of African origin and make up the majority of the region's settled population.
Government forces and militias have also carried out joint attacks against the civilian population, systematically destroying villages, the report said, adding that the military has also engaged in indiscriminate and massive bombing of civilian targets.
About one million people have been uprooted since fighting began 14 months ago. More than 800,000 of them remain displaced within Sudan, while about 110,000 have fled across the border into neighbouring Chad, one of the world's poorest countries.
"The Sudanese military and government-backed militias are committing massive human rights violations daily in Darfur," said Georgette Gagnon, deputy director of HRW's Africa division. "The government's campaign of terror has already forcibly displaced one million innocent civilians, and the numbers are increasing by the day."
New York-based HRW called on Khartoum to immediately disarm and disband the militias and to allow humanitarian groups free access to provide relief to needy people, who have been all but blocked from receiving aid to date.
The government, which declared a ceasefire to be in effect last month, is reportedly continuing offensive operations.
Even as U.S.-backed peace talks between the government and a southern rebel group to end a 21-year-old civil war continue in Kenya, the situation in Darfur has grown into a humanitarian crisis of catastrophic proportions, according to other observers, including Amnesty International, relief organisations and key United Nations agencies that monitor the region.
"The only difference between Rwanda and Darfur now is the numbers involved," U.N. Humanitarian Coordinator for Sudan Mukesh Kapila told the U.N. Integrated Regional Information Networks (IRIN) last week referring to the genocide in Rwanda that broke out exactly 10 years ago next week and killed between 500,000 and 800,000 people, the vast majority of them members of the Tutsi ethnic group.
"This is more than just a conflict," said Kapila who was in Rwanda at the time of the genocide. "It is an organised attempt to do away with a group of people," a description that comes remarkably close to the words of the 1948 Genocide Convention, as noted by Sudan activist, Smith College Professor Eric Reeves.
"Another African genocide is gathering pace in the far western Darfur region", Reeves wrote in the 'Baltimore Sun' on Thursday.
The current conflict dates back to early 2003, when two loosely allied rebel groups, the Sudan Liberation Movement/Army (SLA) and the Justice and Equality Movement (JEM), attacked government military installations to protest continuing raids by the Janjaweed against their communities, as well as Khartoum's failure to invest in the region's economic development.
The two groups were also concerned that any peace agreement reached between the government and the southern Sudanese Peoples Liberation Movement/Army (SPLA) could effectively sideline the interests of non-Arab populations.
The government responded by greatly increasing its support for the Janjaweed and by carrying out its own offensives, sometimes alongside the militias, against the region's settled population.
As described in another report issued last week by the Brussels-based International Crisis Group (ICG), "Militia attacks and a scorched-earth government offensive have led to massive displacement, indiscriminate killings, looting and mass rape".
In its report, HRW said several thousand Fur, Zaghawa and Masaalit civilians have been killed, while the Janjaweed have "routinely raped women and girls, abducted children, and looted tens of thousands of head of cattle and other property".
Hundreds of villages have been burned, while water sources and other agricultural infrastructure have been destroyed, threatening the region's basic food production even if the fighting stopped now and the displaced were able to return home.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: The Sudan
May 27, 2004 - 07:04 AM
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Guys - this is a problem.
It is a problem of a scale that makes some of the other things we have been so concerned with seem small.
What can be done? Is the Sudan a member of the Arab League - can the Arab League act to censor the NIF?
Is the UN taking any action? I mean serious action, not debate and "condemnations" which they are doing - but I mean real action that will put a stop to this?
America is in no position to really do anything about this right now - but it sounds like something Ganghis Kahn would do
- its just barbaric, guys riding around on horses burning villiages to the ground - rape , plunder, murder.
The government sponsoring militias which terrorize the country side.
That sounds like the opening scene of "Conan: the Barbarian" - but instead its actually happening in the world today.
But I don't see why we have to put up with it - I think the UN could put together a force that can handle guys on horseback.
We don't have to stand by and watch this happen - The Sudanese government must be deciplined by the international community at large.
And I think it would be helpful if Arab nations reached out to the Sudanese and helped reign them in from the brink of oblivion.
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NesreeN
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Re: The Sudan
May 27, 2004 - 08:24 AM
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Luke,
Yes the Sudan is a memeber in the Arab League, and so is Iraq, Syria and Palestine and I guess you know the rest.
Let me ask you this... What did the UN do when the USA decided to wage war against Iraq? What did the UN do with the Palestenian problem? Simialr massacres and acts of barbarianism is taking place. Innocent lives are taken away every minute and every hour.
Calling what goes on in Sudan as 'barbaric, guys riding around on horses burning villiages to the ground - rape , plunder, murder' and something that only 'Ganghis Kahn' would do is just wrong. Watch the news of every hour and listen to what they have to say about Palestine and Iraq. You may hear something like '4 American Soldiers were killed' and '35 Iraqies died'. Doesnt that show you that its not only in Sudan and done by the Sudanese? If the media was honest enough to portray the situation in Sudan, it might have as well showed what happens to the Palestenians and Iraqies everyday. The Sudanese government therefore, in this case will not be the only government that would need decipline.
We need to open our eyes, human rights do not exist. Or is it because these places I mentioned are in a time of war, therefore humanity is legally stepped on? If this is the case, then what goes on in the Sudan is just part of the rules of the game (war).
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: The Sudan
May 27, 2004 - 09:50 AM
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Nesreen - to begin,
This has nothing to do with Israel - it doesn't - that is not a defense for what the Sudan is doing.
Its really beside the point - America and Israel have nothing to do with what is going in the Sudan.
That is between black African Christians, a superdominant Arab population, and African Muslims.
Today the North and the South sighned an agreement which will hopefully hold - but the entire west of the country is still in chaos.
Its really sort of Amazing to me that When I bring this up a Muslim immediatly brings up Israel - as though this is somehow a justification.
We have threads on this website that deal with the Arab/Israeli conflict. We have threads that deal with the War in Iraq.
This is about the Sudan - you guys like to talk about how the US should dicipline Israel. Clearly the Arab League should decipline the Sudan. I guess I question whether Arabs practice what they preach.
They complain very loudly when they are the ones being treated unjustly, but when Arabs are being unjust - other Arabs do nothing to stop it - it seems like they don't even like to talk about it.
And frankly bro. this in the Sudan is just genocide. The Americans are not committing genocide in Iraq - they are trying (somewhat unsuccessfully) to build a democracy.
The Israeli/Palestinains situation - you and I both know - is complicated - and both sides share blame. Both sides have innocent blood on their hands - and you are not going to convince me that the Palestinians are innocent in all this.
I don't like alot of what Sharon does, but I don't like alot of what Arafat, or Hamas does either.
This situation in the Sudan - there are no two ways about it - its just the army flying airplanes overhead and bombing defenseless villiages - and then armed raiders on horseback slaughtering people - there are mass graves.
This isn't even about combating a gurilla insurgancy - they are just trying to either kill, or force out and entire segment of the population.
And frankly - if you want to talk about Israel - start a topic called "Israel" - but Israel has nothing to do with the Sudan problem - it just doesn't.
lets focus on one problem at a time.
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Ray Ovac
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Re: The Sudan
May 27, 2004 - 11:54 AM
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Luke:
I agree with you here. Everybody knows that two wrongs don't make a right...and if you believe that what the US is doing in Iraq is right or you don't it has absolutely nothing to do with what is going on in The Sudan. Further, I am personally getting tired of being treated as though just because I am an American I have no right to formulate an opinion on anything else going on in the world...that somehow because of decisions that my government has made that any other discussion other than "how horrible the US is" is null and void. I've got news for people, because of her size and power it is easy to criticize the US, but doing so ignores a world of problems (literally) that need to be discussed outside the context of the US.
I have an perfect analogy to what I am talking about. Years ago when I first starting working for the dark evil corporation that still employs me, I began as a mid - level engineer. My peers would regularly criticize the local management...they were the cause of all of the problems and they were idiots. My peers never looked at themselves in the mirror or considered external factors (such as the market) or benchmarked their managers against those in other companies. No, these were the people with power and they were bad. Further, they cried, the higher up you went the worse the management was and the more that they caused all of the problems, pain, and suffering for the typical working stiff.
As I began to accept more and more responsibility, I began to take the role as one of these managers and later began to manage the local managers, and later yet managed the manager of the managers. In each case, the story was the same: the next level up and all of the way to the top was the cause of all of the problems with the company. Nobody accepted accountability nor considered the fact that any other factors could be casuing the problems. It was the higher - ups, especially the CEO, CFO, and COO. These were the worst. To add to it, because these guys made so much money and had so much power their wrongs were amplified....everyone expected more of them. The reality was that most people were envious of them...not just their power and wealth (although that certainly played a role in it), but of their skill. So instead of talking about all of the good that these people had done for them (like maintaining a strategy that kept them employed) and the company, they found every excuse that they could to shoot down the higher - ups...no matter how high they, themselves were nor how much they contributed to the problem.
I've actually had the opportunity to meet with and work with our CEO and CFO. What is funny is that, at times, I can definitely see that these men blame the Board of Directors for the problems with the company...of course, because they have more power (in a way) than the C - Level people.
As a result, everyone is a "victim" and neither has any accountability (other than to judge those in power) nor any desire to actually take the bit of extra effort required to consider all of the factors that play into what makes bad decisions and bad policies bad.
In short, it is easy to point the finger at those in positions of more power than you...and it is easy to find fault in people who wield a lot of power if only because that power amplifies their mistakes so much. But, when these people themselves move into a role where they are now part of the problem to those below them they don't give their own mistakes a second glance...it is the fault of those above them..as it has always been.
Well you know what? I don't judge those in power above me like many of my peers have and do. When they make mistakes I usually point it out (or at least my opinion that a mistake was made), but I also point it out when they do something well. What is funny is that they are doing quite a bit well and actually the "wrongs" are fairly few and far between. What is even more funny is that when ever I bring up the "good" that Executive Management does there are many people who refuse to acknowledge it. They either shrug it off and say that it is no big deal (usually that from a financial perspective it is trivial or that the decision does not go nearly far enough given the power that the Executives have) or (and this is what usually happens), they *****Claim that there is an alterior motive***** that somehow it is impossible for Executive Management to do anything that is actually "good"...it is only something greedy or self - serving wrapped in a "P.R." package to make it look "good". These people I find to be complete idiots, they are so desparate to have someone to be the "bad guy" so that their simple little picture of their corporate world will be complete that they refuse to consider the reality of a more complex world where things are rarely black - and - white and even more rarely just "good and bad".
I sometimes see similarities among the political perception of the US around the world. The US does some things wrong, and she is powerful so when these things happen they have a big impact; but she does a lot of things well and her motivations are usually not some secret agenda. Some people don't want to accept this, though. Their simple picture of the world would fall apart and they would be left with the harsh reality that things cannot be understood so easily. To see what is really going on requires a little bit more work...and, more importantly, may require some to look in the mirror and see that there is more than one nation in the world that has made some mistakes...and that there are some that have made a lot more and have acted for far more selfish reasons.
...but this is just my view...I suppose some might think that I have a simple view of the world as well.
I also have just a couple of quick comments to some specifics in your message:
Originally posted by luke
"Nesreen - to begin,
This has nothing to do with Israel - it doesn't - that is not a defense for what the Sudan is doing.
Its really beside the point - America and Israel have nothing to do with what is going in the Sudan.
That is between black African Christians, a superdominant Arab population, and African Muslims.
Today the North and the South sighned an agreement which will hopefully hold - but the entire west of the country is still in chaos.
Its really sort of Amazing to me that When I bring this up a Muslim immediatly brings up Israel - as though this is somehow a justification.
We have threads on this website that deal with the Arab/Israeli conflict. We have threads that deal with the War in Iraq.
This is about the Sudan - you guys like to talk about how the US should dicipline Israel. Clearly the Arab League should decipline the Sudan. I guess I question whether Arabs practice what they preach.
They complain very loudly when they are the ones being treated unjustly, but when Arabs are being unjust - other Arabs do nothing to stop it - it seems like they don't even like to talk about it.
And frankly bro. this in the Sudan is just genocide."
I don't think that Nesreen is a "bro"...just a quick correction as I don't think that you were trying to change her gender on her.
" The Americans are not committing genocide in Iraq - they are trying (somewhat unsuccessfully) to build a democracy."
I disagree, Luke. I think that when one considers the situation before the war and the current situation that the US is being amazingly successful. The Iraqi people will have their own government soon with free elections to follow. Once peace has been established and it is stable enough that the new Iraqi government can handle the police work (and there is no risk of preventing free elections from taking place), US forces will be out of there for good. It has been, and will be, a painful process which has and will require a lot of sacrifice, but I think that it will ultimately be successful.
"The Israeli/Palestinains situation - you and I both know - is complicated - and both sides share blame. Both sides have innocent blood on their hands - and you are not going to convince me that the Palestinians are innocent in all this.
I don't like alot of what Sharon does, but I don't like alot of what Arafat, or Hamas does either.
This situation in the Sudan - there are no two ways about it - its just the army flying airplanes overhead and bombing defenseless villiages - and then armed raiders on horseback slaughtering people - there are mass graves.
This isn't even about combating a gurilla insurgancy - they are just trying to either kill, or force out and entire segment of the population.
And frankly - if you want to talk about Israel - start a topic called "Israel" - but Israel has nothing to do with the Sudan problem - it just doesn't.
lets focus on one problem at a time."
Well said, Luke.
God Bless
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: The Sudan
May 28, 2004 - 02:07 AM
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Thank you Codoba - it is gratifying to see you take responsibility.
I am going to demonstraite a little ignorance here and ask you what the Arab League can do to stop it. I don't quite know how the League is set up, what kinds of powers it can excersize over members etc.
Is it like the UN or what?
And frankly - what the hell is the UN doing about this? Debating?
My fear is that the UN is turning into a debate society like the one we have on this website.
And Ray - I liked your analogy - I of course agree with you.
My older brother Mark was the youngest Assistant Sec. of Technology in US history and everything he did half the country thought was wrong even though he was in technology and started putting together the precursers to the internet (90/91) - and that is a pretty apolitical position.
Everyone likes to pass the buck - not just up the chain but down it.
My friends pop is one of the highest paid consultants in the world - bussiness - he talks to major C.E.O. about how to improve their company and says its amazing how much C.E.O.'s like to blame the workforce and search for problems there - instead of facing up to problems in executive strategy.
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Hasan
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Blacks are being ethnicly cleansed
May 28, 2004 - 04:05 AM
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Sudan needs world's attention. Government backed Arab militias are killing blacks Sudanese muslims and christians. The worst part is none of the Arab leaders is condemning it..
Dear Nesreen, please don't take things twisted. This is a genocide going on for several years in Sudan. But now it got worse. The arab league is trying hard to get a solution of Israel and Palestenian conflict. But it won't be able until U.S. is ..................., and indeed, U.S. is killing Iraqi civilians, and its agrressive dominant nature should be condemned by all.
But what is going on in Sudan is something that Arab leaders can solve it. It is time for Arab leaders to put pressure to Sudanese Gevernment solve it immediately. I would like you to read the below article, and find out what is going on in Dafur..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3690557.stm
peace
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Re: The Sudan
May 28, 2004 - 05:31 AM
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Originally posted by luke
Thank you Codoba - it is gratifying to see you take responsibility.
I am going to demonstraite a little ignorance here and ask you what the Arab League can do to stop it. I don't quite know how the League is set up, what kinds of powers it can excersize over members etc.
Is it like the UN or what?
Luke, I don't know much about Arab league. There are many Arab viewers of this thread who can help you about that. But what I understand that Arab league is not as powerful as NATO, E.U. or UN. We have seen in the past NATO exercised its force to deal with Milosovic. Arab league are not expected to use any kind of force, but it can come up with better dialogue, as Sudan is its own member.
what arab league can do is, it can send a clear message to Sudanese Govt. "it has to stop its genocide, or else other actions will be taken if necessary."
I hope U.N. also gets involved into this crises soon.
peace
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Ray Ovac
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Re: The Sudan
May 28, 2004 - 11:07 AM
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Originally posted by TheCodoba
[QUOTE]Originally posted by luke
[B]Thank you Codoba - it is gratifying to see you take responsibility.
I am going to demonstraite a little ignorance here and ask you what the Arab League can do to stop it. I don't quite know how the League is set up, what kinds of powers it can excersize over members etc.
Is it like the UN or what?
Luke, I don't know much about Arab league. There are many Arab viewers of this thread who can help you about that. But what I understand that Arab league is not as powerful as NATO, E.U. or UN. We have seen in the past NATO exercised its force to deal with Milosovic. Arab league are not expected to use any kind of force, but it can come up with better dialogue, as Sudan is its own member.
what arab league can do is, it can send a clear message to Sudanese Govt. "it has to stop its genocide, or else other actions will be taken if necessary."
I hope U.N. also gets involved into this crises soon.
peace[/B][/QUOTE]
Just curious...what "other actions" will be taken if the Arab League "are not expected to use any kind of force"?
Will they cause the Sudanese to stop because of the blistering pain of their rhetoric? I ask because it seems that this is exactly what the enforcement method of choice is today.
Better to wait until diplomatic channels work...I'm sure that the people who will die tonight would have much rather waited until this happens than to allow their nation to be "occupied" by a western force of rapists and torturers. Let the UN handle it...I can already see the Janjaweed shaking in their boots.
I'm sure that the UN, with its lightning fast speed, will take care of this issue before anyone can say, "14th Resolution".
What amazes me is that there is someone in the US State Department right now who is probably saying that the right thing to do is to send in perhaps 1000 Marines, 150 Air Force planes, and another 2 or 3 Naval Ships along with a small Army support team to stabilize the situation while the UN figures out how to best address this issue and discusses how to appease all parties. However, this same person is going to ultimately recommend that the US does nothing but apply its own rhetoric to solve the situation because the price to pay in terms of further angering the Arab world for "meddling in their affairs" and "imposing US will on the rest of the world" is too high for America to shoulder right now.
I can almost promise that this is what will happen.
Come on, everyone, you should be happy! The evil Americans are going to stay out of a conflict that is ongoing. Nobody needs to worry about the US imposing its will on a poor nation just trying to assert itself in a private civil dispute. While people die by the thousands (what was the number in Rwanda? 500,000 to 800,000?) you can sleep tonight assured in the knowledge that none of the "honorable soldiers on horseback" will die at the hands of Americans. Be comforted in the knowledge that the blood of so many innocent civilians has been shed to protect the rights of the world to "discuss" the best course of action over the next 18 months.
I, for one, am disgusted. I am ashamed that my government has been so swayed by world opinion that they are frightened to step in to remedy a situation that is in desparate need of a firm hand...and I am sickened by the satisfaction that so many others in the world are secretly feeling right now because the horrid United States is staying out of the region.
I am sure that tomorrow I will regret being so open in my spontaneous expression of anger about this issue and I will probably need to apologize for offending so many people who believe that the US has no role to play here other than verbally condemning what is happening in the Sudan. Right now, though, I am mad that because of political pressure the US (which is the only single nation with the military force to immediately prevent this suffering of countless people) is bowing to at the expense of so many innocent humans.
Please forigve me for sounding so coarse...it is only because I genuinely despise what is happening in the Sudan right now to innocent people that I am being so blunt. For them and for all people tonight who are needlessly in pain(yes, including those who are suffering because of US action) I am praying.
God Bless
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Cicero
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Re: The Sudan
May 29, 2004 - 02:09 AM
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Nesreen has a point:
Human rights dont exist in reality. They vary on the whim of ruling force.
Sudan crisis will be solved. But now on peacefull way. By force. Goverment will eliminate the population and that will be the end.
Ave Futuria
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AMEER OSMAN MUSTAFA ELNAGER
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THE PEACE NOW IN SUDAN
May 29, 2004 - 04:02 AM
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dEAR FRIEND
THANKS FOR YOUR INTERESTING to peace in Sudan,almost your thinks all right.
the importiant issues ,what can youths peace buliding in sudan ? and what can youth organizations play roll with sudanese association ?
we must think about that ,the action planning,what?when?where?who? ....etc
sudanese youth bigest voice for co-opreation for peace buliding in Sudan,please market coopreation for good future to youth in sudan
best time
ameer elnager
Sudanese association for youth development (SAYD)
Sudan,omdurman
Mobile:0912881955
Originally posted by Rayovac
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TheCodoba
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by luke
[B]Thank you Codoba - it is gratifying to see you take responsibility.
I am going to demonstraite a little ignorance here and ask you what the Arab League can do to stop it. I don't quite know how the League is set up, what kinds of powers it can excersize over members etc.
Is it like the UN or what?
Luke, I don't know much about Arab league. There are many
Arab viewers of this thread who can help you about that. But what I understand that Arab league is not as powerful as NATO, E.U. or UN. We have seen in the past NATO exercised its force to deal with Milosovic. Arab league are not expected to use any kind of force, but it can come up with better dialogue, as Sudan is its own member.
what arab league can do is, it can send a clear message to Sudanese Govt. "it has to stop its genocide, or else other actions will be taken if necessary."
I hope U.N. also gets involved into this crises soon.
peace[/B][/QUOTE]
Just curious...what "other actions" will be taken if the Arab League "are not expected to use any kind of force"?
Will they cause the Sudanese to stop because of the blistering pain of their rhetoric? I ask because it seems that this is exactly what the enforcement method of choice is today.
Better to wait until diplomatic channels work...I'm sure that the people who will die tonight would have much rather waited until this happens than to allow their nation to be "occupied" by a western force of rapists and torturers. Let the UN handle it...I can already see the Janjaweed shaking in their boots.
I'm sure that the UN, with its lightning fast speed, will take care of this issue before anyone can say, "14th Resolution".
What amazes me is that there is someone in the US State Department right now who is probably saying that the right thing to do is to send in perhaps 1000 Marines, 150 Air Force planes, and another 2 or 3 Naval Ships along with a small Army support team to stabilize the situation while the UN figures out how to best address this issue and discusses how to appease all parties. However, this same person is going to ultimately recommend that the US does nothing but apply its own rhetoric to solve the situation because the price to pay in terms of further angering the Arab world for "meddling in their affairs" and "imposing US will on the rest of the world" is too high for America to shoulder right now.
I can almost promise that this is what will happen.
Come on, everyone, you should be happy! The evil Americans are going to stay out of a conflict that is ongoing. Nobody needs to worry about the US imposing its will on a poor nation just trying to assert itself in a private civil dispute. While people die by the thousands (what was the number in Rwanda? 500,000 to 800,000?) you can sleep tonight assured in the knowledge that none of the "honorable soldiers on horseback" will die at the hands of Americans. Be comforted in the knowledge that the blood of so many innocent civilians has been shed to protect the rights of the world to "discuss" the best course of action over the next 18 months.
I, for one, am disgusted. I am ashamed that my government has been so swayed by world opinion that they are frightened to step in to remedy a situation that is in desparate need of a firm hand...and I am sickened by the satisfaction that so many others in the world are secretly feeling right now because the horrid United States is staying out of the region.
I am sure that tomorrow I will regret being so open in my spontaneous expression of anger about this issue and I will probably need to apologize for offending so many people who believe that the US has no role to play here other than verbally condemning what is happening in the Sudan. Right now, though, I am mad that because of political pressure the US (which is the only single nation with the military force to immediately prevent this suffering of countless people) is bowing to at the expense of so many innocent humans.
Please forigve me for sounding so coarse...it is only because I genuinely despise what is happening in the Sudan right now to innocent people that I am being so blunt. For them and for all people tonight who are needlessly in pain(yes, including those who are suffering because of US action) I am praying.
God Bless[/B][/QUOTE]
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NesreeN
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Re: The Sudan
May 29, 2004 - 08:13 AM
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With the signing of the peace treaty in Kenya, we the Sudanese have so much faith and aspiration for a positive change. War for over 20 years did no good for the people in war and even in those abroad. Its about time for the Sudan and the Sudanese to implement those projects that were always talked about but not done.
Many of you might ask what is the use of peace in the south, while there is another one in the west? Well the Sudanese government is taking the necessary action to stop all wars in the Sudan. Specially that everybody is tired from the war. Southern Sudanese, Northern, Eastern and Western are all aspiring for peace, the Sudan has been suffering from the effects of war. Its not only that the Southern Sudanese had suffered, but the rest of the country did. Sudan paid a huge bill for the ongoing war and its people know exactly the effects of these wars.
Therefore, peace in Darfur is going to be soon (insha'Allah), and with the signing of the peace treaty with the South, the Darfur issue would be soon be solved. Because all the Sudanese want peace, and the government is now offering to corporate.
I also want to point out that the Arab League can only assist in the problem but can not use any force. Its help to its member countries is mostly through aid granting. Like it did today to threaten the Somalian government, it stopped its aid to this country.
Luke,
In my previous post I was trying to show you the similarity between what goes on in Iraq and Palestine to the situation in Darfur. The massacres take place in all countries in war. The issue here is who is responsible to implement the human rights law. If the UN has very minimal power in our world today, then who is responsible? The US? The EU? Or the G-10? Considering that the Arab League is a very weak body compared to the above organizations or countries.
I think that we need a new 'world police' in this changing world order.
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Ray Ovac
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Re: The Sudan
May 29, 2004 - 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by Nesreen
Luke,
In my previous post I was trying to show you the similarity between what goes on in Iraq and Palestine to the situation in Darfur. The massacres take place in all countries in war. The issue here is who is responsible to implement the human rights law. If the UN has very minimal power in our world today, then who is responsible? The US? The EU? Or the G-10? Considering that the Arab League is a very weak body compared to the above organizations or countries.
I think that we need a new 'world police' in this changing world order.
The problem with a new "world police" or any other international law enforcement mechanism is the approval process for action. Because diplomats, politicans, and bureaucrats need to decide by concensus before every tiny step is taken, the process to actually get to a point where policing that brings real relief to those who are the victims of violence is too slow. By the time someone actually steps in to prevent violence, tens of thousands of people will have died.
This is precisely why terrorists and criminals are able to be so effective. They know, and plan for the fact that any international action to prevent them from committing such atrocities will take so long to occur that they will have been able to achieve most of their objectives before the first resolution for action actually comes to a vote.
It is impossible to be both assertive and satisfy the wishes of everyone in the world.
"While we sit and we talk and talk and we talk some more, someone's son lies dead in a gutter somewhere." - PC
God Bless
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Cicero
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Re: The Sudan
May 30, 2004 - 01:14 AM
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Thats called GENOCIDE, Codoba. Finish off the opponents nation and send him into history.
Ave Futuria
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: The Sudan
May 30, 2004 - 02:16 AM
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Kiaser,
I think the goal is to stop the Sudanese government from committing genocide.
NATO stepped in and stopped the genocide in Kosovo - if that's what needs to happen again, then so be it.
Nesreen - I think Ray had the right idea behind "world police" - because in order to work they would have to be a super-military force, beyond even the current capability of the American army. Whoever was in charge of the new force would be essentially president of the world.
Ray was talking about how acheiving concensus between all the worlds powers on anything just flat takes too long - how long have the UN been debating this Sudan issue?
no, it would require executive leadership - which means Kofi Annon's position would have to be greatly increased in power and scope - then the question becomes - who gets to be president of the world.
Funny enough I bet the Chinese would like someone from China, the Americans would want an American, the Arabs would want an Arab, the Russians a Russian.
concensus would have to be at least achaived on who the commander in cheif of this world police force could be.
But Nesreen - honestly - the war in Iraq is as close as you can get to a "world police action" - because Saddam would qualify as an outlaw that the World Police would have to deal with.
America, although not always popular in it actions - is basically the world police at this point - and Saddam's regeime was criminal.
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