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Janece
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[Poll] The right to defend yourself.
May 11, 2004 - 08:41 AM
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Recently with laws being preposed such as the asault weapons ban in the U.S. and in England no right to own guns at all, I'm starting to wonder how people are supposed to protect themselves. In my history class we are in the middle of Moch Congress where our house is pretending to be the Senate of the U.S. During debate on a bill one of the Democrats stood up and said the people should be able to take responcibilty for their actions, raise their families how they want and do what they want within reason, yet they want guns banned. I'm starting to wonder why they think guns are such a bad thing and if guns are really the issue.
Basicaly what i'm trying to say is, Should we be still have the right to own guns??
Should we still have the right to own guns?
Yes
(4 votes for 57.14%)
No
(3 votes for 42.86%)
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: The right to defend yourself.
May 11, 2004 - 10:03 AM
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I think the idea is that people don't need assault rifles to defend themselves - do you really feel you need an Uzi to protect your family in the US?
These are dangerous weapons - 11,000+ people kill each other with guns in this country every year - guns in society is a problem.
So while I recognise your right to own a handgun from protecting your home, and a rifle for hunting.
I just don't think you need an AK-47 to hunt or protect yourself - its overkill.
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Helga
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Defend myself against what?
May 12, 2004 - 05:33 AM
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An angry Bull maybe? Or perhaps you mean against rampaging Coca Cola Cans...? Because these are the only times I personally have come into contact with guns being used in the UK.
Yes, we do have our fair share of violent crime, and we do have gun crime, but it isn't anything approaching an epidemic that people might want to defend themselves against.
And yes, I'm the first to admit that I grew up in nice areas where I wasn't likely to come into contact with gun crime... so lets find some statistics...
According to the BBC (see link below), there were 80 gun crime deaths in England and Wales in 2002.
80
I don't know how many people got killed by cars, but I'm going to make a crazy wild assumption that it was more, a lot more.
I just tend to believe that guns only lead to more guns... If you have a gun to protect yourself, then it only encourages the person who you want to defend yourself against to also get a gun, to protect themselves. If you can make sense of that!
So for me, yes, guns are the issue.
Oh, and not wishing to get technical, guns aren't banned completely in the UK (not just England... ), but they are heavily restricted. I'm not happy about the way they introduced that, it was a knee-jerk reaction to a horrible, horrible crime, which I don't think addressed the causes behind the crime. If you are going to shoot school kids, you're not going to be too fussy about whether your gun is legal or not.
But getting back to your question, I don't think there really is any need to have a gun to defend yourself in the UK...
Helga
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3112818.stm#
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Janece
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Re: The right to defend yourself.
May 12, 2004 - 07:25 AM
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Ok Helga I see where you're coming from. I was just wondering though, i've heard stories and i'm not sure if they're true so i want to clear this up.... If someone tries to rob you and you fight back and hurt them can the robber sue you and win?... Although banning (or nearly) has worked in the UK Americans aren't going to give up their rights to own a weapon so easily. Yes having a tank in your back yard or Uzi in your basement isn't logical but i know people who do it. It's the pricinple of the fact. First it's the right to own guns and then the next thing you know we might lose our right to protest.Almost every time a new law is passed in the U.S. banning or restricting guns the crime rate goes up. Drugs are ilegal aren't they, yet thousands of people still use them in the U.S. what makes you think that just because guns are ilegal it means criminals won't have them.
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Cicero
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Re: The right to defend yourself.
May 12, 2004 - 11:01 AM
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Right to defend yourself is a basic human right. WHY? If i dont defend myself against a open agression i will probably die or end up severly beaten...
You probably asked, what are the proper ways of defending yourself against agression. Guys that would want to attck you (?), can get good weapons anytime on black market. They surely wont attack you with licensed weapons.
We all know how easily acessible are guns in USA. But guns themselves dont kill. People kill, either with guns or without them. I assume american people are not taught enough about proper communication with one another, how to respect different people. And they are too much opinionated, which creates violence also. And through history they always settled disputed with force.
I presume there is notihng terrible to have a weapon at home, as long as it is not an rpg its not a problem. Guns, must be put in a safe place and separated from ammo. As precaution that it doesn get into reach of the kids. Then you do have problem if it ends up in kids hands!
Ave Futuria
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Helga
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I admit it, I'm a professional fence-sitter
May 13, 2004 - 04:43 AM
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I believe everything I read, I think the last argument I've heard is the strongest, I'm a sucker for a good sales pitch and I'm as fickle as a goldfish.
I never said I would be logical
Plus, I didn't explain my position very clearly in my last post (My excuse: I was stuck in traffic jam for 3 hours on my way home last night...)
Janece, I think there are several issues and I blurred them all, sorry:
Guns used for crime (we agree, it doesn't make a bit of difference if gun's are legal or not, if you want one enough, you're going to find a way to get one.)
Guns used by law-abiding citizens for defence (where I suspect our paths may go their seperate ways - I think that there's no need, we're not in danger from anything that would justify having a gun in the house for defensive purposes (well maybe angry bulls...))
State gun control (my opinion is that the measures in place in the UK don't make a bit of difference to gun crime, which is why they were introduced, but since I don't think there's any need to have a gun in the UK anyway, it's not an issue I'm about to campaign on)
Moving on...
I'm not sure I get this: "First it's the right to own guns and then the next thing you know we might lose our right to protest"
I don't think US civil liberties are such that you are only allowed to protest because the authorities know you have guns and aren't afraid to use them. (Ok, yes, I saw your 'might' but for me it's still a big leap... and yes, I do kind of get why the right to bear arms is in the US Constitution...)
I'm sort of with Kaiser, although I'm not sure I agree with all of your analysis, there is something about the US that means that guns are such the issue they are there. Switzerland and Canada both have really relaxed gun laws, and very high gun ownership, but no where near the number of gun deaths as the US. Whereas Japan has very strict controls, and also very few deaths. I'm not sure what the answer is... I don't know if anyone knows.
As for your point about criminals sueing and wining, there have been a few cases, but it's the circumstances that are important. I think the law is that you are allowed to use reasonable force to protect yourself, so if your response is considered to be over the top, then you are the one at fault.
However, I'm not naive enough to believe that the law works perfectly all of the time...
On a completely different subject, you said this in another thread (sorry for the cross posting) "Recently....well, for several years now.....i have tried to find my own stand on issues instead of believing in popular opinion."
I think that's fantastic! For me, one of the most important things is that people ask questions and look for answers. Ok, I might not agree with what they come up with, but I really value the fact that they know why they are where they are.
Oh that was a longer post than I intended! Going back to my fence now.
Helga
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Janece
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Re: The right to defend yourself.
May 14, 2004 - 09:19 AM
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Thank you Helga, I try to be as informed as i can. That's why TIG is perfect for me.
"I'm not sure I get this: "First it's the right to own guns and then the next thing you know we might lose our right to protest" I don't think US civil liberties are such that you are only allowed to protest because the authorities know you have guns and aren't afraid to use them. (Ok, yes, I saw your 'might' but for me it's still a big leap... and yes, I do kind of get why the right to bear arms is in the US Constitution...)"
What i meant here is that if we allow the government to take our right to own guns then the right to protest or right to free speech may be the next to go. I hope that clears things up.=)
I think part (but certainly not the only one) of the reasons that there are so many deaths due to guns is that people don't know how to use them properly and don't respect the damage thay can cause. My dad taught me early on how to handle a gun safely and that i never play with them. He teaches at a Police academy and sometimes the students are afraid of the gun like it's going to bite them, because when they were growing up they were taught to fear guns. Like Kaiser said "guns don't kill people but people kill people" it's a bit of a cliche but it's true.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: The right to defend yourself.
May 14, 2004 - 09:30 AM
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Januce -
listen - I'm a brown belt - I can take down most people without a gun if I really have to -
but if you are concerned about being sued - man firstly if you can prove it was self defense and not excessive violence - like you didn't do more than necissary toprotect yourself - then you should win a civil suit - but regardless its just a civil suit.
If you shoot someone there will be a criminal investigation - even if they were breaking into your home - again if it is proven to be self defense in your own home - well then if they do their jobs they will not prosecute.
But you are certainly going to come under some pretty intense police scrutiny if you shoot someone.
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Hasan
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Re: The right to defend yourself.
May 14, 2004 - 10:04 AM
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Everyone should be aware of his/her right. Sometimes we are not aware of our personal right; therefore, when someone abuses and takes advantage of someoneelse's, we have nothing to do..
I believe owining gun will not solve any problem of self defence and should not be allowed any case b/c human being are hot tempar, so gun could be used for any kind of ragging incident. However, if someone can show any special cause, or someone lives in a remote area that is really scarry, he/she shoud be allowed to possess gun..
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