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Hasan
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in addition
May 3, 2004 - 12:43 PM
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I am just not shocked, but stunned after looking the pictures of Iraqi war prisoners. This is a shame not for U.S. but for the whole world. The country that preaches peace and human right around the globe, and this is their action!!!!!!
http://www.albasrah.net/
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Cicero
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Re: in addition
May 3, 2004 - 01:28 AM
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Yeah, well. I told EVERYBODY:
"Have low expectation about humans".
How loud must i be BEFORE i am heard and confirmed? Usually when it is too late!!
Ave Futuria
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Mostafa M. El-Iskandarani
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Re: in addition
May 3, 2004 - 06:42 AM
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Thanks for the link so much
I think its a very small picture from what is really happenning there they did it again & they will do it again as long as they have the power to do that ...
God only knows what are the disasters they are preparing for.
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Brian
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Re: in addition
May 3, 2004 - 07:57 AM
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As a US citizen I am disgusted at the images I have seen of the prisoners taken by the US. They dismantle any hope we may have of maintaining any semblance of credibility. As if we had any to begin with. I was just thinking this morning that all parties involved in this treatment should be court-martialed and sent to Levenworth. I saw General Karpinski (spelling) this morning on the news and she was doing a fast tapdance. It would have been nice to hear her assurances that she would find out what was going on instead of going out of the way to cover herself. On another note, she may be singled out because she's a woman but I hope we get to the bottom of this.
I know these images are extremely demeaning to Muslims and I appologize on behalf of my stupid people.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: in addition
May 3, 2004 - 08:16 AM
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The investigation is going to have to be transparent and go as far up as justice demands.
It is a real shame that a few soldiers have to put a black mark on all the rest.
I think Malex - that you will see the American administraition nip this in the bud and clean house - they have to. I would be beyond surprised if I heard of another allegation in a few months with the amount of backlash the military is taking over this.
Understand that abuses like this are in no way in America's interests - why would they be? It just makes the situation more difficult than it already is.
Anyway - I hope everyone will take a moment and understand that every population has its criminal element - and young kids often do stupid things - this is really stupid - the kids should be really punished - but I don't think it is representative of the most of the people working over there - if it was you would be hearing many more scandles than just this one.
So long as this remains an isolated incident I will remain supportive of our troops - but this incident alone is enough to warrent a serious revisiting of our command and control.
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Cicero
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Re: in addition
May 4, 2004 - 01:25 AM
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It is not the first, and most definetly not last incident of this kind. Such thing happen everywhere.
Ave Futuria
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Hasan
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Re: in addition
May 4, 2004 - 03:07 AM
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Briank, I appreciate your view. I think U.S. has to take a lot of heat from from media and others b/c of these abusive pics.
Kaiser, it is not a matter of if it is happening somewhere else or not. In the first place, U.S. could not prove its so call claim of weapons of mass destruction. Now U.S. sees itself as a liberator of Iraq from a dictator. But these pics show how less their soldiers' morality or moral could be. Ever since the country has been occupied, things have not gone well for even a single day. Especially who can forgive and forget the british soldiers peeing on Iraqi POW. At the same time, I belive not all them are like that..
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Cicero
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Re: in addition
May 4, 2004 - 08:19 AM
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Americans should stick to their country solely. And be friends with others, in order to receive resources and sell products. Thats all there is. No problems or war that way.
Same goes for those which dont like America. They have no place there and they also must stick to their community and not meddle in affairs of others. Mixing means conflict.
Ave Futuria
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Mostafa M. El-Iskandarani
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Re: in addition
May 4, 2004 - 09:54 AM
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Well after seeing these pictures NO COMMENT ...
http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_objectid=14199634&method=full&siteid=50143&headline=shame-of-abuse-by-brit-troops-name_page.html
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Udara
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Re: in addition
May 4, 2004 - 10:02 AM
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TheCodoba, Have a look this discussions, your thoughts are welcome.
http://www.takingitglobal.org/discuss/showthread.html?threadid=6672&perpage=15&pagenumber=4#post33116
Have a look what a former army interrogator has to say here..
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/US/05/03/ritz.cnna/index.html
Kaiser, I agree with you, These incidents happens with war, but indeed is a shame to the humanity!
>Anyway - I hope everyone will take a moment and understand that >every population has its criminal element - and young kids often do >stupid things - this is really stupid - the kids should be really >punished -
Luke, Don’t joke around pal,
“On 16th March 1968 American soldiers killed more than 500 civilians at the village of Song My. To quote from Sue Downie's book:
"The Americans, believing the village was harbouring a Viet Cong battalion and spoiling for a fight, shot or stabbed almost everything that moved, and then set fire to homes." ... "No Viet Cong was seen and not a shot was fired at the Americans" ... "Many women were raped, sodomised, scalped, disemboweled and had their hands cut off."
And you mean, Criminals were punished properly! NO!!
And those guys were properly punished?? no! So you believe that rest of the world would
“BUY” your “punishing the kids” ??? I do not think so!
Here are some pictures of some work of Luke’s “KIDS” some decades back! Lets not forget the bloody history!!
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Udara
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Re: in addition
May 4, 2004 - 10:08 AM
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If criminals for a huge crime like my lai were never punished, how can we believe the honesty of USA in this case.
Sure, America would put a "show" to the world through the US media , portraying that the criminals were punished, but I do not think the world is dumb enough to buy those stuff!
Udara
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Terri Willard
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Re: in addition
May 4, 2004 - 11:00 AM
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It's really hard to root out a culture of abuse in military organizations.... a good chunk of the training that young soldiers receive is intended to help them view the enemy as less than human. It's the most efficient way to reprogram someone from being a civilian (taught never to kill) to being a soldier (taught to kill on command). It takes a very strong military leadership to then restrain those impulses to dehumanize and abuse the other. And the problems are escalating as militaries are thrown into long-term peacekeeping roles which have greater nuances in terms of who is a friend and who is an enemy at any given moment. But most soldiers aren't mentally trained to deal with these kinds of complex situations.
I don't know.... I'm feeling a sense of deja vu from the early 1990s when the Canadian airborne regiment was disbanded following the Somalia Affair (http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-71-723/conflict_war/somalia/). I think that most militaries need to be fundamentally rethought to cope with the reality of modern conflicts. How do you train soldiers to deal with emotional realities of peacekeeping... a situation in which you must believe that the people you are on the ground supporting or killing are just as human and valuable as you are? Is such a thing even possible?
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Hasan
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Re: in addition
May 4, 2004 - 11:20 AM
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Udara, thank you for your information. And I also believe U.S. bias media have a lot to do, they play a big role in every war. They portray things negative way very often. The media is designed to support a president who loves war, and they are ready to back up.And it was Bush's advantage to convince his citizen for his Iraq war.
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Udara
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Re: in addition
May 4, 2004 - 11:52 AM
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Terri , you got a GOOD point there.
TheCodoba, I agree, Both the US and Arab media work in a way to highlight the evils of a one side..
When it comes to US media, it gives a picture of a “righteous “ state to its citizen, Its not any better than brain washing propaganda of Osama Bin Larden it self.
Anyway, I do not think the claims of USA to punish the criminals are “honest “, They ignored worst crimes in the past and they are putting another show to gloss over
from the criticism and humiliation!
The issue with Guatemala Afghani prisoners too is the same, the nudity of the USA is exposed to the world,
What people who claim to “defend” USA must do is understand the wrong doings of the past - present and to admit them in a humble way and also to work to make a difference in future, but alas, the eyes are blinded, sadly……. the destruction is inevitable..
Udara
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: in addition
May 5, 2004 - 01:14 AM
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Udara - please tell me what 1968 has to do with this - nothing.
These kids are not accused of slaughtering a villaige - they are accused of abusing prisoners.
Its a stupid thing to do - they should be punished, and I think Talkoid has a point - there must be a reassesment of the training that went into these soldiers and the command that was supposed to supervise them.
Regardless of whether the commander knew this was going on or not - they should have and they should not be allowed to escape responsibility for the crimes.
Part of it simply comes from putting 19 & 20 year old kids in positions of power - abuses like this are an inherent risk.
But Udara - you love to try to tie everything to Vietnam - this has nothing to do with the images you just displayed - if you want to put up the images of the prisoners being abused - that is relavent -
- but these kids weren't even born yet in 1968.
Beleive me these kids are going to be punished - its already happeneing - not only will they be punished - it will be public - the media will cover it - and the US Government will make an example of them to say "see - we don't condone this behavior."
You seem to forget that the US is waging a Public Relations campaign - that is why we didn't take over Fallujah. Watch - these kids are going to get harsh punishment - the government will make an example of them - they certainly will want to avoid any comparisons to Vietnam.
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