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Alana
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Big guy vs. Little Guy
April 25, 2001 - 10:43 AM
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When we study history, it always seems that the Big Guy, the more advanced nations, the richer people have always wronged the little guys. Right? Look at the Holocaust. The technologically advanced Germans against the weaker countries. Look at the whole Slobodan Milosovik disaster and other attrocities. So, have we become accustomed to looking at conflict and siding with the underdog? Do we automatically assume that the poorer people are being persecuted by the richer people? I suppose that our tendencies to do this stem from the fact that the media loves to show heartbreaking stories of the little guy's fight for justice....I mean who wants to really know about how the rich countries are fighting for themselves?? that stuff isn't newsworthy! Anyway, to get back to my point, I really think that people need to read the papers and take what's said with a grain of salt. In the 50's, would you have studied the "truth about the Holocaust" from a German text book?? probably not. Would you listen to "both sides of the issue" from Slobodan Milosovic?? I think NOT! Do some studying of your own and form your own opinions. You'd be surprised what kind of crap you're being fed!
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Alana
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Clarification
April 25, 2001 - 02:58 AM
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Martin,
I, in no way, shape or form was trivializing the Holocaust. I suppose that looking back on what I posted, one could certainly make the argument that I was, but seeing how I'm jewish and several members of my family died in concentration camps......need I say more?? Thought so.
Anyway, now that I've gotten that out of the way....what I really was referring to was the fact that in the last war the Israelis fought against the Palestinians, the world was very pro-Israeli, as the Jews had just begun reconstructing their homeland after WW2, and people still really remembered what had been done to them (plus the fact that the Israelis were making a whole lot of sense when they argued their points). Today, however, the Israelis are extremely technologically advanced ( ICQ and some of the most advanced technology and gadgets we used were invented there), financially stable, militaristically advanced and intelligent. The surrounding nations are not. Many of the surrounding nations are extremely mysogenistic, poor, uneducated and under strict Islamic regime, which is never good in ANY context.....think Afghanistan. So, obviously, the Arabs would be seen as the underdog in this situation. It isn't coincidental that suddenly the world is feeling sorry for Palestinians, when 35 years ago they sided with the Israelis who were fighting the same issues that they are now. I mean to be honest, most people don't even understand the issues. Time and time again we hear about how the Israelis are controlling the lives, economy and countries of the Arabs. This is absolutely ridiculous, as anyone who was interested in discovering the truth would quickly learn that only 5% (yes, that little) of the Palestinians are actually living in Israeli governed territory. The other 95% have lousy lives because of the Islamic governments who control them, and they have simply chosen the Israelis as their scapegoats!
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Martin Kuplens-Ewart
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Re: Big guy vs. Little Guy
April 25, 2001 - 11:49 AM
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I trust you aren't suggesting that the holocaust was a lesser evil than it really was.
Following the war, the Allied forces put all Germans through a so-called "de-nazification" process, in which whole villages would be crowded into a cinema and shown film footage of concentration camps and other horrors caused by the Nazi regime. Everyone was forced to watch, listen, and learn in an attempt to show that, although Hitler had managed to revive the German economy, he had also caused the perpetration of the most horrendous crimes against humanity.
The reason that there is no media interest in "the big guys fighting for themselves", is that they have nothing to fight about - big business essentially drives politics and governmental affairs in the "developed world", especially North America - any issues that may affect the billions of dollars in profits are steamrollered as soon as they rear their ugly heads.
The reason why people want to hear about the little person's struggle for justice/freedom/equality/whatever is that deep down we all have something that we are fighting for or against - we all experience personal struggles - and witnessing another person's victory over their enemy gives us hope; hope that one day we too may win the battle.
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Robert Margolis
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Re: Big guy vs. Little Guy
April 26, 2001 - 02:33 AM
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Israel is the only democracy in the middle east. When the Saudis do not allow women to drive or Syria persecutes dissidents, no one really complains because they accept that these countries are despotisms. However, when something goes wrong in Israel, they are criticized because they are seen as violating their democratic ideals.
The US and UK face this also. When the US is caught doing something wrong, it appears to be condemned far more strongly than Russia for a similar offense because the US is held up as a model democracy and Russia is seen as a corrupt oligarchy.
I think we hear about Israel more because they are surrounded by hostile nations, so Israel has to do more for its security. In doing more, it is exposed more to criticism.
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Robert Margolis
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Expectations
April 26, 2001 - 09:26 AM
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There is also the effect of expectations. Unfortunately, people will demand more of a country they expect as democratic. No one expects much of a Russia or China, so they get criticized, but not to the degree of a country like Israel, which carries a larger "expectations burden".
It would be nice if people used the same yardstick, maybe such a thing will yet come to pass.
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Martin Kuplens-Ewart
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Re: Big guy vs. Little Guy
April 26, 2001 - 10:09 AM
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Democracy within a generally undemocratic geographical area is not the only cause of problems for Israel. A large part is played by the way it as a nation was established - through armed conflict.
Whereas most newly-formed nations today are able to establish themselves through a generally peaceful, democratic process, the founders of the modern state of Israel were forced - by decisions made by the British after World War II - to take the hard route and conquer the land to form their nation.
During WWII, as Britain's financial reserves were swiftly running out, threatening her ability to continue the war against Nazi Germany, a deal was made with the Rothschild's, in which they would give Britain a very large sum of money [i forget exactly how much] and in return, Britain would help form an independent Jewish state - Israel - after the war was over.
In typical gentlemanly [or would that be womanly... after all she is referred to as she] form, Britain used the Rothschild moneys then turned around and said "deal? what deal?", and instead suggested that it might be possible to take that particular part of palestine with a minimum of losses.
And the rest of the story is, well, not quite history... after all, the repercussions are still being felt to this day... car bombings, suicide bombers... Read the papers... it's all in there.
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Robert Margolis
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Re: Big guy vs. Little Guy
April 26, 2001 - 10:35 AM
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My understanding of the founding of Israel is a little more convoluted. Britain was trying to do several things: appease the Arabs due to their control of oil, please the pro-zionists, and rid themselves of a troublesome territory. They basically pulled out, the UN partitioned the area into a Jewish and Arab state, then the Arabs rejected partition and went to war with Israel.
Actually, most nations are founded through war. South Korea and Taiwan are recent thriving democracies, yet were produced through horrific wars. Many of the current powerful democracies have the luxury of having oceans and/or friendly neighbors (Australia, Canada, UK, and the US). Having lived in Korea, I can sympathize with the hightened security concerns in Israel.
I would hope that eventually the Arabs and Israelis see that there are greater benefits by working together (a good example can be found at www.arava.org) as opposed to fighting. Of course this opinion is from one who lives protected by two oceans. :-)
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Alana
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Why?
April 26, 2001 - 11:57 AM
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Why are Israelis held to a higher standard?
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Alana
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I get angry when...
April 28, 2001 - 02:32 AM
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I get so angry when both sides of the Middle East crisis agree to start talking about peace again and then some fundamentalist screams things like "we don't want peace...we want war!!". I mean what kind of animal wants war or believes that war will be better for them than peace? I mean hello!! Wake up....war sucks...people die. Everyone has to bend a bit and yet it seems that some people are at a stand still and refuse to bend at all!
I'll definitely check the website that someone listed in the last response to get a bit of a pleasant refresher.
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Robert Margolis
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Re: Big guy vs. Little Guy
April 29, 2001 - 07:35 AM
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The fact that the Arava Institute exists at all gives some reason for hope. I first heard about them on NPR in the States.
Unfortunately, there are those who feel so desperate about their lives that they can not see the long term impacts of their support for war. It is easy for leaders to convince impoverished people that their best hope is to take a chance on dying to get what they want or need. Also, many leaders exploit religious or patriotic beliefs of their people to destructive ends. Such leaders are incredibly short-sighted and gamble the destiny of their people and nations in what is today is mostly fruitless endeavor of war. Now the hard part is to convince the rest of the emptiness of war to solve problems.
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Camilla Noble-Warren
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Re: Big guy vs. Little Guy
May 1, 2001 - 03:19 AM
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I have a reply to convincing the rest of emptiness of war. Please see my post in cause of war, (because it's still related to cause of war)
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MJ
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Re: Big guy vs. Little Guy
May 9, 2001 - 08:44 AM
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War was created from Greed. Greed stems from desire for greatness which is the seed of Power.
Human beings are victims of the Greed and Power of their country's leaders. History tells all.
Greedy, Power Mongers have left people fighting for centuries.
Why does everyone in the world pray for "World Peace"
Because there never has been any and never will. The forces of Evil on this earth are so great that human-kind will constantly be struggling to survive the battles of life.
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Mj Carter
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big guy vs. Little guy
March 17, 2005 - 11:19 AM
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I agree with you because when buh went in to Iraq Bush knew he had more weapons.Instead of having a fair fight he used all his soldiars and weapons like what is he trying to prove.And then after he wins hes still trying to make news headlines about his win like no one cares everyone knows you did something wrong and you made the gas prices go higher so you didnt gain anything.Well the under dogs always win in my opinion because in Irag war the gas price whent higher so theyre gaining money while U.S. might have won but now they have to pay more for gas.So I think the little guys always win and the big guys are disrespectful.
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Arul
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Re: Big guy vs. Little Guy
April 11, 2005 - 09:14 AM
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Big guy vs. Little Guy :
big guy won ---------> mostly
little guy won -------> vietnam vs usa , ltte vs india, afghans vs russians
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E
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Re: Big guy vs. Little Guy
May 1, 2005 - 07:59 AM
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you forgot many...but w/e
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