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Luke Lieberman
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Al Qaeda - take 2
April 26, 2004 - 04:33 AM
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lets try this again.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Al Qaeda - take 2
April 26, 2004 - 04:33 AM
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AMMAN, Jordan (CNN) -- Jordanian authorities said Monday they have broken up an alleged al Qaeda plot that would have unleashed a deadly cloud of chemicals in the heart of Jordan's capital, Amman.
The plot would have been more deadly than anything al Qaeda has done before, including the September 11 attacks, according to the Jordanian government.
Among the alleged targets were the U.S. Embassy, the Jordanian prime minister's office and the headquarters of Jordanian intelligence.
U.S. intelligence officials expressed caution about whether the chemicals captured by Jordanian authorities were intended to create a "toxic cloud" chemical weapon, but they said the large quantities involved were at a minimum intended to create "massive explosions."
Officials said there is debate within the CIA and other U.S. agencies over whether the plotters were planning to kill innocent people using toxic chemicals.
At issue is the presence of a large quantity of sulfuric acid among the tons of chemicals seized by Jordanian authorities. Sulfuric acid can be used as a blister agent, but it more commonly can increase the size of conventional explosions, according to U.S. officials.
Nevertheless, U.S. intelligence officials called the capture of tons of chemicals that together could create several large conventional explosions "a big deal."
The plot was within days of being carried out, Jordanian officials said, when security forces broke it up April 20.
In a nighttime raid in Amman, Jordanian security forces moved in on the terrorist cell. After the shooting stopped, four men were dead. Jordanian authorities said. They said at least three others were arrested, including Azmi Jayyousi, the cell's suspected ringleader, whom Jordanian intelligence alleges was responsible for planning and recruiting.
On a confession shown on state-run Jordanian television, Jayyousi said he took orders from Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a suspected terrorist leader who has been linked to al Qaeda and whom U.S. officials have said is behind some attacks in Iraq.
"I took explosives courses, poisons high level, then I pledged allegiance to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, to obey him without any questioning," Jayyousi said.
Jordanian authorities said Azmi Jayyousi was the suspected ringleader in an alleged al Qaeda plot.
Jordanian intelligence suspects Jayyousi returned from Iraq in January after a meeting with al-Zarqawi in which they allegedly plotted to hit the three targets in Amman.
In a series of raids, the Jordanians said, they seized 20 tons of chemicals and numerous explosives. Also seized were three trucks equipped with specially modified plows, apparently designed to crash through security barricades.
The first alleged target was the Jordanian intelligence headquarters. The alleged blast was intended to be a big one.
"According to my experience as an explosives expert, the whole of the Intelligence Department will be destroyed, and nothing of it will remain, nor anything surrounding it," Jayyousi said.
Details of the alleged plot were shown Monday on Jordanian television, including graphics of how the cell apparently intended to carry out the attack.
In an videotape shown on Jordanian TV, Hussein Sharif said Jayyousi recruited him as a suicide bomber.
"The aim, Azmi told me, was to execute an operation to strike Jordan and the Hashemite Royal family, a war against the crusaders and infidels," Sharif said. "Azmi told me that this will be the first chemical attack that al Qaeda will execute."
Jordanian authorities said the attack would have mixed a combination of 71 lethal chemicals, which they said has never been done before, including blistering agents to cause third-degree burns, nerve gas and choking agents.
In a videotape shown on Jordanian TV, Hussein Sharif said he was recruited as a suicide bomber.
A Jordanian government scientist said the plot had been carefully worked out, with just the right amount of explosives to spread the deadly cloud without diminishing the effects of the chemicals. The blast would not burn up the poisonous chemicals but instead produce a toxic cloud, the scientist said, possibly spreading for a mile, maybe more.
The Jordanian intelligence buildings are within a mile of a large medical center, a shopping mall and a residential area.
"And there is no one combination of antidote to treat nerve agent, choking agent and blistering agent," the scientist said.
Al-Zarqawi, a Jordanian, has been accused of plotting chemical attacks before, and authorities said it would not be his first attempt to strike Jordan.
In 2000, a Jordanian court charged him in absentia with planning to blow up a hotel and attack tourist destinations.
U.S. officials have said he was behind the 2002 assassination of American diplomat Lawrence Foley, who was gunned down outside his home in Amman.
According to the televised confessions, $170,000 came from Zarqawi via messengers from Syria.
In last week's raid, Jordanian forces seized cash, bomb-making equipment and weapons, investigators said.
CNN was not allowed access to any of those arrested. But the videotaped confessions offer a rare glimpse inside an alleged terrorist operation.
The Jordanian government said the videotapes were made with the full cooperation of the suspects and their attorneys.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Al Qaeda - take 2
April 26, 2004 - 04:34 AM
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Now Udara - if you would kindly explain to me again how Al Qaeda if full of reasonable people that will not require military force to deal with.
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Yara Kassem
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Re: Al Qaeda - take 2
April 26, 2004 - 05:05 AM
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REASONABLE PEOPLE????????
Oh..come on!!!!!!
It's the last thing that anyone would ever say about AlQaeda...
AlQaeda is a bunch of mentally sick people who are misunderstanding and misusing Islam,They're brainwashing the minds of some youth that lost their ways in such a life...
So,don't tell me REASONABLE people!!!!!!
Islam forbidds the killing of innocent lives,and even harming them...so,who do they think themselves??God???to punish some people that they take as criminals???Is this Justice???Don't they think that they might have killed their brothers or their sisters??
Well,I'm sorry if I'm so offensive,I wasn't even willing to participate in that thread,I'm just sick of those discussions regarding Islam,and everytime I'm just defending Islam and myself...
And by the way Luke,I just watched now on TV those terrorists in a program in the Jordaninan TV,they were explainign how did they got the materials and all the stuff to bombs to bomb the jordanian intelligence agency,Oh god,those people are totally brainwashed...and after their conversation there was some sheiks from Jordan explaining that this is compleetly against Islam....
I'm really sorry about all of this....
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Al Qaeda - take 2
April 26, 2004 - 06:01 AM
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I know - I agree wtih you of course Yarinos - I'm just reminding Udara why it was unreasonable of him to expect the US to sit still after 9/11 and not go into Afghanistan.
he "condemns" Al Qaeda but doesn't think anyone should use force to deal with them.
From where I sit - hat's off to the Jordanians - this is a big success for their counter - terrorism people.
Psychos who want to detonate chemical weapons inside a major city - regardless of which one - with the express purpose of killing as many civilians as possible - just so they can make some political "point" - these people have got to be stopped from harming others - and they must be stopped forcibly if neccissary.
Muslims like yourself Yarinos - must take control of Islam back from these radicals who smear its name in innocent blood.
The Jordanian proved something - that Muslims that speak the language are much more capable of tracking Al Qaeda then Western powers are. I think if Muslim countries amped up their counter-terrorism measures - the US would back off.
And with the way Al Qaeda is targeting Muslim countries - Saudi Arabia, then Jordan - Egypt seems like just a matter of time.
It is amazing to me that Al Qaeda claims to be an enemy of Israel and a champoin of the poor muslim - but Al Qaeda spends all its time attacking Muslims in Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Jordan etc. - they never attack Israel at all (not that I am hoping they do - but it demonstraites hypocracy).
Perhaps this is because they can't get a cell started inside Israel - but it seems that Al Qaeda is more interested in the violent overthrow of Muslim governments - to replace them with fundamentalist regeimes like the Taliban.
I would say one of the Areas it might be helpful for moderate Muslims to focus is on the education. There is nothing wrong with religious education - but it seems that there are extreme schools in places like Saudi Arabia (where 15 of the 9/11 highjackers came from) that teach kids a very conservative form of Islam that regards those who are not Muslim as an enemy of the religion.
Anytime you have religious indoctrination teaching kids that everyone who is not like them is their enemy - well this can only lead to problems.
So educational reform along perhaps a bit more secular lines will make it much more difficult for Al Qaeda to find minds which are predisposed toward their hatred.
I know that educational reform was essential in the American South when we had the KKK killing blacks.
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Michael Newton-McLaughlin
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Re: Al Qaeda - take 2
April 26, 2004 - 08:37 AM
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<> Right, they don't care how oppressive or wrong supporting a government is, as long as it is in opposition to western ideology and pro suppoting a type of muslim fundamentalist ideology. Does that not ring a bell at all with the US??? Have we not supported the violent over throw of governments, unconcerned with who the new government was as long as they did not interfere with our interests? Isn't that what the US is doing by using the argument that Iraq's self determination cannot actually be self determination, because it may lead to a government that has incongruent ideologies with the US?
<> Aye, I agree with you on this point... how do you propose that this can actually happen?
Anytime you have religious indoctrination teaching kids that everyone who is not like them is their enemy - well this can only lead to problems.>> Or any other form of ideology (aka US indoctrinating people that any thing communist or socialist is bad, or that people fighting in a revolution or against oppression are bad, if their views are at all opposed to the US)
So educational reform along perhaps a bit more secular lines will make it much more difficult for Al Qaeda to find minds which are predisposed toward their hatred.
I know that educational reform was essential in the American South when we had the KKK killing blacks.>>
We clearly have an agreement on this point, but I think that we should look at it as a global context of education reform.. that all pedagological tools and systems are reformed in some way to stop polarizing other people and ideas.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Al Qaeda - take 2
April 26, 2004 - 10:58 AM
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In order for educational reform to happen in the Middle-east it will require the efforts of moderate Muslims.
And Jedi - here is where we disagree - I don't think Al Qaeda is simply the result of American foreign policy - this is far too simplistic an idea.
Much of it has to do with fundamentalism - in any religion this gives rise to radical action. Fundamentalist Islam was not created by America - and yet this is the difference between anti-Americanism - which exists in many countries around the world - and the kind of violent zealotism that would make maniacs try to detonate Chemical weapons in Jordan.
You see Al Qaeda simply as a reaction to our foreign policy - as though shifts in our foreign policy would somehow pacify this thoroughly brainwashed religious army.
I just don't think so.
I agree that we can't go around inflaming the Muslim world - but at the same time this is not a simple matter of public opinion.
And when you are dealing with threats as serious as a chemical weapons disaster - well you have to be aggressive in cutting it off.
You are talking about "minor operations" is this a joke?
Look at what is happening in northern Pakistan - does this seem minor?
Ultimately arrest like this last one are good because it demonstraites to Muslims that Al Qaeda is their enemy too.
Because the best possible senerio is the Muslim nations policing themselves.
But at the end of the day - Mike - I just don't think you properly comprehend the danger presented to our country - these guys would like to nuke New York.
That's something I'm not prepared to watch happen - and just trying to appease terrorists by shifting our foreign policy to placate them - is - well frankly a neo-liberal stance that will never work in the real world.
Our conflict with Al Qaeda has gone considerably further than a diplomatic solution.
We are not going to appease Bin Laden - we have to kill him - period.
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Michael Newton-McLaughlin
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Re: Al Qaeda - take 2
April 26, 2004 - 11:40 AM
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<<In>> What do you mean by moderate muslims?
<<And>> Oh, you are correct, the people created NOW are the ones that need to be dealt with. I'm arguing that if we continue the foreign policies that we use to not only remove them, but also the other policies we use- economic and clandestine ones- helps to PERPETUATE this 'army'/threat.
<> I don't know if any of us can comprehend the danger of what the cities of the world face when any violence is done to it. I dont know man, I visited 'ground zero' twice, once a month after 9/11 and another time about 6 months later... and man was it so upseting. I cried the first time, the second time I was really distraught, but more in a poetic than somber mood.
Yet I still cannot imagine what it felt like to be part of that. Yet I am not selfish enough to just wonder what my people, what Americans have felt, during terror - but I also try to apply that to all friends and countries... all people. What it is like to see mothers holding signs of their lost children... So while imight be able to imagine what kind of horror has been and might be done to the world, by many nations, it is something I could not comprehend unless I was in the middle of it.
What I do comprehend is that if someone is determined and carefull enough to... impliment and execute a plot like releasing a nuclear bomb in NYC, then it is going to be very difficult to stop them to begin with. So i believe it is something we will face in the future whether we want to or not. I grow a bit sad thinking about it, that maybe it will be LA, or even San Francisco just a few miles from me. Maybe I could die, or someone very close to me. Yet I realize that revenge and perpetuating a reciprocal violence is not the answer to this problem. Because for every one of my close friends killed, if the US responds as it has continued to in the past, then I know that it will also mean other peoples children and friends dying. I realize that sometimes we may need to use force, like special operations, to attack and yes kill some of these people. However, I do not really think that is going to END the majority of this threat.
What will end it is something I cannot fully grasp, but have a vague idea of, at least in terms of my own values. I try to look past immediate or near present when thinking about how to address the problems of today. So in conclusion, I'm not going to vote for someone or something that simply wants to use force or gives the illusion of being able to provide national security, I will vote for someone and policies that actually want to change the systemic problems that have created the evils we have created, and now face.
<<That>>
Well, can you explain first what you mean by 'neo-liberal stance', as I have a pretty clear definition of what a neo-liberal is but what you just said didnt quite triger that... probably my fault. And i dont think we should appease terrorists, i think we should work to not create them and to actually support programs that work to not create them.
<<Our>>
Yes, I agree. But I am not willing to do so at the cost of thousands of civillian lives, not even if they are non-americans. All people are worth the same to me.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Al Qaeda - take 2
April 27, 2004 - 01:17 AM
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By moderate Muslims I mean most of them - there is a small minority which has greatly leveraged its visability on the world stage through acts of terror.
The average muslim must assert themselves here.
And yes Mike I do agree we must foster relations - but take the Syrians - this government is outright supporting terrorism - far from policing it -
we are not going to convince Syria to police themselves - know what I mean.
And were we to be "nice" to the Syrian government - by your logic that would mean America is supporting another oppressive dictatorship.
I don't think you are being realistic - so with the Syrians we can't oppose them and we can't make friends with them because then we would be supporting terrorism through working with a totalitarian government.
You know what I think about the Saudi Princes - But I understand how powerful they are on the world stage - so either we support or oppose them - there is no real way for America to have an ambivilant position on the Saudi's.
You reolize tht basically the Saudis try to buy off terrorist organizations - "here's some money just don't attack us." but they are starting to get attacked anyway.
And actually - in general to answer your question - foster relationships on this issue will become easier as Al Qaeda attacks on muslim nations become more brazen.
And notice how they leave Syria alone - obviously dictatorships don't bother Al Qaeda so long as they are supportive dictatorships.
Anyway - in Northern Pakistan the Paks have an ongoing battle with Al Qaeda tied groups - it requires their army - not their police force.
Some of these Al Qaeda sickos are individuals in cells like the guys in Jordan - this is something local intelligence services - were it in the US it would be the FBI - just need to arrest the cell - it may take a swat team like in Spain - but ultimately it doesn't require the military.
But in places like Pakistan and Afghanistan you have the real heads of the entire organization - and before we went over there an cleaned it out there were weapons labs, training camps etc.
It requires and army to deal with say 300 Al Qaeda fighters like there were in Pakistan a few weeks ago.
The police can't just arrest them.
And the whole idea with terrorism is to stop the terrorist before they reach your shores.
And some of these guys have militias armed to the teeth - it takes the military to deal with them.
I am not suggesting that we need to use our army everyhwere terrorism is a threat - but in places like Afghanistan you have Al Qaeda with considerable forces - realistically the military is the only thing that can deal with that kind force.
The guy who was ultimately behind the Jordan incident was probably Zarchawi operating out of Iraq - If we ever found him I am certain that his followers would come out of the woodwork trying to protect him.
At some level you don't have the stomach to deal with these guys - these guys are world class criminals trying to do the most devistating things an evil mind can conceive of - this goes beyond the police.
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NuGene
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Luke and Mike
April 27, 2004 - 06:27 AM
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Bush, Jr. has my total blessing, for the U. S. to have invaded Afganistan and overthrown that government, and We have to stay there to give a new government a chance to prosper, intially as we did in Japan, and on our terms but with postive long term humaniterian aide. I personaly think Bushed jumped the gun on Iraq and Bush, Sr should have removed Saddam and his racisam back in 1989, Bin Laden would not have attacted on 9/11. And speaking of Ben Laden, why can't his like show their follwers how to do a suicide mission. I know a few Muslims and some are good friends and they are good people. Take Yara, I think you both would concider her a good friend. But it is to late to pull out of Iraq and we have to stay the course and try to befriend our enemies to the best of our ability. And any way,,,,, One is only,,,,, knownby his strongest,,,,, ENIME,,,,,,,, want to see,,,,,,,, HIM,,,,,,, look into aMIRRIOR.....PeaceOutAll
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Michael Newton-McLaughlin
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Re: Al Qaeda - take 2
April 27, 2004 - 07:03 AM
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<<Bush, has my total blessing, for the U S to have invaded Afganistan and overthrown that government, and We have to stay there to give a new government a chance to prosper, intially as we did in Japan, and on our terms but with postive long term humaniterian aide. I personaly think Bushed jumped the gun on Iraq and Bush Senoir should have removed Saddam and his rasiam back in 1989, Bin Laden would not have attacted. And speaking of Ben Laden, why can't his like show their follwers how to do a suicide mission. I know a few Muslims and some are good friends and they are good people. Take Yara, I think you both would concider her a good friend. But it is to late to pull out of Iraq and we have to stay the course and try to befriend our enemies to the best of our ability.>>
I'm not even sure where to begin... so I won't. But for perhaps an interesting article on why Iraq should not be compared to Germany and Japan, there is one linked in my profile. I might also ask where it is our right and duty to overthrow governments, especially when making such statements is ignorant of the social costs that are incured by doing so.
I'm not quite sure what this means: <<Bush>> Can you clarify? (Maybe its just the series of typos.. no problem.. im to tired to decipher them)
'Stay the course' is such a tired and teleological mentality that I'm not even sure how to address it without being rude.
I guess I did begin, but i'll stop... mostly because its 4am and I need to go to sleep.
Poke Smot!
Michael
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Antoine Wood
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Re: Al Qaeda - take 2
April 27, 2004 - 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by luke
Much of it has to do with fundamentalism - in any religion this gives rise to radical action. Fundamentalist Islam was not created by America - and yet this is the difference between anti-Americanism - which exists in many countries around the world - and the kind of violent zealotism that would make maniacs try to detonate Chemical weapons in Jordan.
Fundamentalist Islam is probably more closely due to Europe than America, however, America is large and represents everything Europe stands for. If it weren't for European imperialism the Mid East wouldn't be such a "crappy" place to live to put it plainly. If you think about it the same thing could happen here. If you look at western history we used to be very religious, however that gradually died away as we progressed technologically. The Arabs on the otherhand had a negative correlation, they were moderized by the Europeans and their standard of living relitive to everyone elses went down. Basically you need either progress or religion, here we don't listen to the onld people who tell us that we have no values anymore because we have DVD players. However, how would we react if we were degressing? (anyways I'll stop rambling)
This article more or less proves my point, good police work is far superior to military might in the war against terororism. The war in Iraq has ultimately killed more Americans than it saved (if it saved anyone how many Americans has Iraq killed other than in times of war and occupation? The war in Afghanistan is an exception in my opinion, because the Taliban are fundamentally equivalent to Al Queda.
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Cicero
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Re: Al Qaeda - take 2
April 28, 2004 - 03:48 AM
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If any of you wants to start something, must start with himself. Thats it. I would love to talk to Yarinos by MSN. Just talk no inter-persuasion.
Reality? Thats starting point for all - do not talk about how "it should be" but only how it is and how to improve the situation.
Ave Futuria
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olanteen
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AlQaeda
April 30, 2004 - 01:47 AM
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I would think that the terrorists in the name of AlQaeda are fanatics or just mentally derailed. For someone to wake up and say other people must be killed is an insane thing.I have many muslim friends and I have never seen some of the bad threats alqaeda is possing in them.
However I think the mentality of anti-peace is derived right from some mosques. How?
-- What some imams preach in the mosques are what the subjects react on. I see them in Nigeria where an imam hears a news of happening in Iraq or Afghanistan and without confirming the news, goes to the mosque and say it and even exagerate, and then tells the congregation that christians are killing muslims. The next thing u'll see or hear is the shout of allau akbar and killings of christians starts but u will not see his son or daughter there again.
-- Sometimes illeteracy adds to it. I have not heard of a medical doctor or a lawyer who has done a suicide bombing, they don't want to die buy they send others to. See Rantasi for instance was supposed to be a doctor, but he does not want to die rather he send others to in the name of matyrdom.
-- Another thing is that some muslim countries will not act against a bad thing until it has happened to them directly. Saudi Arabia never took terrorists seriously until bin lade started blowing them up in the kingdom. Jordan did not do anything until they started experiencing it too. Lookk at Spain, Turkey etc. It seems we wait till the dooms day before we want to defendinstead of been on the attacking part.
-- Some people just want to make name, money and respect out of this because they know that some arab people are illeterate and there is this in born hatred for the americans and so they know the people will do anything they say. The people contribute money in the mosques, pay into trust funds and anything all in the name of Islam whereas the money goes into the pockets of the terrorists and they live big on them. They become popular (worshipped), feared and rich and so they spread their tentacles.
U see all the story of fighting america because of one thing or another is a bunch of lies. Is bin laden an Afghan? Why is he fighting for them. If he can fight for them, then America has the right to fight for any vountry in the world too.
Somebody said America should get its hands off palestine, why? If America keeps quite on an issue we accuse it of keeping quite, if it talks we say it talks too much?
What the people really need mostly is education. Islamic and western education. That gap must be filled because you can't come and call me to go for a suicide mission, for what. I ahve not heard of Bin lades son die of suicide. I have not heard of Zarchawi's children die. Where are their own children? Are they sacred? I am sure they are in a university. So thee should be a change in the orientation of the people. Education matters. Look at France, a news said that an Imam supported wife beating cause it is islamic, in this 21st century? It is beause he is an illeterate and he has been supporting fundamentalists too. So, moderation must be brought in here. The people should be told that there are other ways of getting ur right or protesting than killing people. It is barbaric. This terrorists kill anybody - muslims christians, jews -- just anybody. They are animals and like goats that they are, they need force and a heavy one too to surpress them
So, what the people needs is education and good communication. Let peace reign worldwide.
God bless us.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Al Qaeda - take 2
April 30, 2004 - 08:34 AM
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That was excellent Olanteen - and I agree education is one of the keys to this struggle.
About the Saudis - man Bin Laden is a rich Saudis - the other rich Saudis have been paying him under the table to leave them alone.
But as Churchill said "an appeaser is one who feeds a crocidile in the hopes it will eat him last.
And so the Saudis are starting to get hit anyway - because Bin Laden would like to overthrow them.
But what is really amazing to me about the psychology of Zarchawi and the rest - in Jordan they wanted to kill 80,000 with chemicals - that is just evil.
Can someone explian to me what Jordan has possibly done to deserve something like this? Its just sick.
And what they really want to o is throw the world into chaos - which will radicalize the world and bring about WW3. They want to overthrow governments - in Jordan they were aiming squarely for the King.
They want to overthrow the Saudis too - they'll leave Syria alone because their buddies and they get weapons from Syria - like they did in the Jordan plot.
They would like to overthrow Pakistan too. And probably Egypt.
And obviously 9/11 which aimed at our economy (Twin Towers), our Military (Pentagon) and our executive leadership assuming the last plane was aimed at the White House.
Clearly they would like to overthrow our government - and the Brits too.
And the Indonesians.
And the current Afghan adminstraition.
And Bin Laden was fighting the Russians and funding the Chechins for decades so he'ld like to overthrow Moscow too - that is just difficult to do. I'm sure he has issues with a number of former Soviet countries.
Instability is the goal of Al Qaeda - creating a power vaccum which can be seized upon by Islamic Facists like themselves.
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