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Lewis Best
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What si the Pont of
April 24, 2002 - 10:48 AM
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War? What's the point of it. Many people die, from the "enemy" side and the "good" side. In the end, most wars are for money, power and are related to politics. Take the Vietnam war. Many people died on the battlefield. But what for. Sure, to stop Vietnam being taken over by communists. But was there another way to resolve the problem? Maybe not, but is it neccessary. War is a creation of the people. It may seem weird to think about it but... What would a world without war be like?
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jen b
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Re: What si the Pont of
April 25, 2002 - 04:25 AM
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War dosen't determine who is right, it determines who is left.
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Mike
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there should be
April 25, 2002 - 05:03 AM
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there should be a law against using words like post-fordist
But i liked that reference to bodily utopia.
nice.
Dont have anything to add input on this one. Maybe Rob can help.
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Pred.
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Robert Margolis
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Scarcity vs True Needs
April 25, 2002 - 08:03 AM
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Okay, Pred, I'll chime in :-)
Our archaeologists claim that war originated when the cities had to protect their food surpluses from the remaining nomads. There had been organized violence, but armies, generals, killing LARGE numbers of people came with the food surpluses.
Josie made a great point that scarcity plays a role, but there are different kinds of scarcity. I suffer from a scarcity of Ferraris, however I am not motivated to go to war to get one. On the other hand, if I have no food, or I am cold and have no fuel for heat...which direction do we march...
As war is a relatively recent invention, I think it can be uninvented. This would freeze international boundaries and require surrender of certain national sovereignty (BIG hurdle). In addition, this would not mean an end to violence. We would still have terrorism or other forms of organized violence. This version of "World Peace" would control the scale of the violence. Still this may be a good trade.
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Mike
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ferrari's, lamborghini's, and volvo's.
April 25, 2002 - 09:12 AM
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Im not so sure war can be 'uninvented.' it would certainly be a great idea. But I would think it would be hard since the surrender of national sovereignty would be enough to cause factions of resistance to the idea.
However, what would be more achievable would be a uninvention of some of the tactics of war. Such as the control of agricultural supply routs to outlying villages.
To put this into context: I read a speech given by one of the members of the higher command in the Gulf War that said one of the things they were doing to isolate Saddam was cut off the roads and transport infrastructure to the outlying town around Baghdad and throughout Iraq - thus trying to make the population divided upon those who wanted war, and those who felt the war was already over.
What's sad is that in Iraq, those that do the travelling across the particular roads that were bombed are the younger members of the family - in a sense; they were isolated from the markets they were trying to go to in order to buy food etc.
There are many other examples of where Tactics in modern warfare cause more harm than good. Whats scary are those tactics that are yet to be implemented, like 'if we cant have it - no-one can' mentality towards thermonuclear warfare. (this mentality is really really really bad - for the entire planetary ecosystem, and us)
Admittedly, war tactics have often seemed suicidal but ended up working better than expected. The invasion of Omaha beach worked better than expected, I think Churchill thought losses of the intial landing troops the Americans were throwing at the beaches seemed small in comparison to the overall cost of lives the British had to endure in those few short hours.
As for Ferrari's Rob, everyone knows an Aston Martin is better.
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Pred.
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j
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a dialogue
April 25, 2002 - 12:09 PM
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Part of a discussion with one of my good friends yesterday ... thought it might interest...... It followed seeing some appaulingly graphic photos he was sent from UN reporters (not found on CNN or BBC!) The first part of the dialogue was on censorship but this bit pertained to war hence the post...As it flows quite well I have not bothered to delineate who said what....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The modernity project has fooled us all into thinking that through technology we can rid ourselves of scarcity and hence war.
Trouble is the definition of scarcity shifts as society becomes more materially comfortable, and somehow collective angst and personal ambition (or as you put it identity) contribute to the sea of blood humans so regularly toss each other into.... yes I am a cynic....
Yes, we will always need to differentiate ourselves - hence the need for post-fordist production. Our 'needs' drive economic change. Perhaps Maslow was right after all, first the 'global' satisfaction of basic needs and then now the 'global' satisfaction of psychological needs. But is
there a limit? Is there a far away threshold where no one is willing to put anymore work as they all have more than enough? But what about sickness, genetic defects, unattractiveness? What after we all look like something off GATTACA? Is it possible that our search for physical
perfection will lead our minds into the ability to be so reflexive that we can lose the need to differentiate ourselves? No ambition combined with no need for competition due to the end of scarcity? I guess what I am
asking is, "while it is conceptually possible to reach a utopia by ridding ourselves of corporeal minds and bodies and merging with the universe (or whatever), is it also possible to reach a bodily utopia?"
Agreed but imagine what it would be like if we could arrive at a postmodern, post-scarcity, post-identity world...I always imagined it would be without corporeal bodies and corporeal minds. Perhaps this is what heaven is?
Ahhh but it does seem to be that even *that* idea can be the source of 'ownership rights' and fight to the death ..... perhaps a delineation of heaven also??
We are a weird species.......
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Mike
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i think
May 3, 2002 - 08:48 AM
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I think war tells us we should have worked harder at discussing our problems.
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