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Adeyemi Adisa
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Spanish Election; yellow card for Bush & Tony Blair...
March 15, 2004 - 06:22 AM
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Last weekend election result in Spain has sent a warning signal to both Tony Blair and G. Bush. Before the election, the brutal attack on the innocent people of Madrid sent bad omens to the then ruling government that their time was almost up. Thanks to the good people and voters who deemed it urgently fit to ensure change in government to prevent future occurrence of such a brutal and inhuman attack.
Some critics are now even linking the attack on Thursday to the involvement of the then Spanish ruling government that supported America in the unneccessary war and killing of innocent people of Iraq. If the then Spanish government has witheld its support who knows this brutal attack might ve not occurred. If the entire people of Spain can logically reason and successfully ensure change in government, then G.W. Bush and Tony Blair should see that as a warning signal ...and they too might be defeated in the upcoming elections in their respective nations. We don't need you anymore...you've all caused world more sadness than happiness.....
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sean jayasekara
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Re: Spanish Election; yellow card for Bush & Tony Blair...
March 15, 2004 - 05:24 AM
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Emilio,
What the hell do you mean by this:
Originally posted by emilio16
2. A brutal attack usually leads to creation of weak socialist governments, which allow for Spain to be a softer target to hit next time
I'm not sure where that comment comes from or what sources of information you use but I think you should elaborate. From that comment it would seem you know very little about countries that have been affected by terrorism.
It is a shame, cos I actually agree with your other points
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Cicero
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Re: Spanish Election; yellow card for Bush & Tony Blair...
March 15, 2004 - 06:14 AM
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My points i want to stress and i am confident i am not missing it are:
- For AL QAEDA this was quite a sucessfull (political) attack. It shows to them how effective a well aimed blow can be. You can virtually change the way people vote.
- Socialists are NOT weak. They are VERY strong, if they intend to back off from America in this case and risk a chance of being economically sanctioned.
- Maybe events in Spain will topple Bush reign as well, as this cannot benefit his campaign, but it already benefits the democrats.
- ETA is dead. No matter if it has hands clean in this particular case. They will take major blow in following months.
- AL QAEDA is riding on the wings of globalisation. They surely have used their chances well.
Ave Futuria
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Cicero
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Re: Spanish Election; yellow card for Bush & Tony Blair...
March 16, 2004 - 03:51 AM
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Emilio:
How about if US tried to cut off terorists from their ideological background and separate them from their ppl base & financial base?
AFGHANISTAN =??
Numbers of starving is (as i was informed) steadily increasing. Just it is not so "important" to be on the news.
Ave Futuria
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Terri Willard
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Re: Spanish Election; yellow card for Bush & Tony Blair...
March 16, 2004 - 04:09 AM
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There's an interesting analysis of the Spanish elections at Salon.com (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/03/16/spain/index.html).
It does a pretty good (I think) review of Spanish political history - tracing the evolution of the Socialists and Popoular Party, and indicating why the Spanish people may have risen up against a government they perceived as lying to them.
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Adeyemi Adisa
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Re: Spanish Election; yellow card for Bush & Tony Blair...
March 16, 2004 - 07:44 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by emilio16 4. This has shown that unlike the Americans, who during the 11th of september came together as a solid rock to defeat terrorism, the Spanish stand devided.
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Hey.. since G.Bush had be fighing his so-called war against terrorism, how many victories has he been recorded? I think it is high time these bastard leaders stopped brainwashing us by killing people in the name of fighting against terrorism. If you don't know, they re indirectly fuelling this "inhuman acts" called terrorism by wrongfully imprisioning innocents at CAMP DELTA and by waging war against the will of their people...
To the best of my knowledge, the only solution to terrorism is getting rid of Bush as they did in Spain and installing a leader with vision whose policies would be loved by his immediate people and the entire world. When Clinton was there, there was no attack on America but as soon as Bush became president, misfortune started befalling Americans home and abroad. It's high time we elect leaders that will help to make our world safer ...
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dj
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EMPIRE STRIKES AGAIN!!!!!!!!!
March 16, 2004 - 08:12 AM
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America and britain are acting as they are saviour of this world. But actually i think that this will be a second episode of America and Britain ruling the world. If you look at the history whenever America was in depression they attacked another countries. look at the Vietnam War ang Afghan & iraq war. Slowly and gradually they are trying to occupy positions for their trops and they will not remove their troops in order to get hold of that country. This is Alarm fro the Arab countries as well as Pakistan and Afghanistan.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Spanish Election; yellow card for Bush & Tony Blair...
March 16, 2004 - 11:06 AM
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Guys - think about what you are saying - you are saying that if terrorists want to kill hundreds of people in order to effect an election - then it will work.
Adeyemi - you are basically saying that terrorists can effect an election by killing people - and this is a good thing.
I think it is a terrible precedent. It says - murder works. I think the last thing people should do is elect leadership based on fear of terrorism.
Frankly - if they attacked the US they would ensure Bush's reelection.
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Matt Wolpert
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Re: Spanish Election; yellow card for Bush & Tony Blair...
March 16, 2004 - 11:23 AM
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I have doubts that the results of the Spanish election had that much to do with the bombings. I think they had much more to do with two things:
1. Polls show a large majority of Spanish not agreeing with their governments participation in the Iraq war. More than any other factor, this election was a referendum on Iraq.
2. The current PM was not running for re-election. It was his successor. There is a big difference in voting for an incumbent and his successor. Look at Gore in 2000...if Clinton were running then, he would have won categorically.
Unfortunately, most of the world is taking the Spanish election as a direct effect of the bombings, including the terrorists. The real tragedy is that there will be more fear in other European countries to support the US in the war on terror ( I do not include Iraq in that war) and there will be greater motivation in terrorist groups to attack supporters of the war on terror with the hopes of influencing policy.
All in all, these bombings were bad for everyone, and my heart goes out to the Spanish. I was in NYC on 9/11, so I know how it feels. Hopefully, this attack will motivate them, and the rest of Europe, to get tough on terrorism.
Regarding DHAMS007's claim that America and Britain tend to attack other countries when their economies are down is wrong, and incredibly cynical. If our economy was in the dumps, but 9/11 had not happened, we would not be in Afghanistan or Iraq. We are spending astronomical amounts of money on these wars, that could be spent on our own economy, but because we were attacked, we are spending it elsewhere. With Afghanistan, what could we possibly gain by taking over their country? They have negligible oil, agriculture or anything else. They are one of the poorest countries in the world. Why would we expend billions to take over a country that gives us nothing economically in return if we were motivated by economics? It has to do with a regime that supported Al Qaeda and terrorism.
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Matt Wolpert
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Re: Spanish Election; yellow card for Bush & Tony Blair...
March 16, 2004 - 11:31 AM
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I have doubts that the results of the Spanish election had that much to do with the bombings. I think they had much more to do with two things:
1. Polls show a large majority of Spanish not agreeing with their governments participation in the Iraq war. More than any other factor, this election was a referendum on Iraq.
2. The current PM was not running for re-election. It was his successor. There is a big difference in voting for an incumbent and his successor. Look at Gore in 2000...if Clinton were running then, he would have won categorically.
Unfortunately, most of the world is taking the Spanish election as a direct effect of the bombings, including the terrorists. The real tragedy is that there will be more fear in other European countries to support the US in the war on terror ( I do not include Iraq in that war) and there will be greater motivation in terrorist groups to attack supporters of the war on terror with the hopes of influencing policy.
All in all, these bombings were bad for everyone, and my heart goes out to the Spanish. I was in NYC on 9/11, so I know how it feels. Hopefully, this attack will motivate them, and the rest of Europe, to get tough on terrorism.
Regarding DHAMS007's claim that America and Britain tend to attack other countries when their economies are down is wrong, and incredibly cynical. If our economy was in the dumps, but 9/11 had not happened, we would not be in Afghanistan or Iraq. We are spending astronomical amounts of money on these wars, that could be spent on our own economy, but because we were attacked, we are spending it elsewhere. With Afghanistan, what could we possibly gain by taking over their country? They have negligible oil, agriculture or anything else. They are one of the poorest countries in the world. Why would we expend billions to take over a country that gives us nothing economically in return if we were motivated by economics? It has to do with a regime that supported Al Qaeda and terrorism.
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Emilio Canovai
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Re: Spanish Election; yellow card for Bush & Tony Blair...
March 16, 2004 - 11:48 AM
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Well,
First victory Afghanistan
People there are slowly but surely buidling up a democracy.
Country is slowly rebuilding it self. Don't say that it is yet but it is clearly on it's way. Further more that country has been cleared of terrorist supporting people.
Second victory nearing in Iraq
The consitution has been signed, Billions of US dollars are pouring in to help Iraq rebuild. Major attacks have ceased. Sadam is disposed off. Living conditions are rising rapidly. Oil production in the last 3 months has yielded 6 billion dollars and is nearing pre-war levels (that is fast for a country that has just been at war).
And by June the elections could begin according to the UN.
So there you have it!
In conclusion:
Two countries, on their way to democracy, liberty, two less opressive regimes , two terrorist supporting countries less.
PS What are Americans supposed to do? Talk terrorists to death.
PPS To kaiser. I wasn't talking about socialist governments in general, just this specific case in Spain.
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Adeyemi Adisa
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Re: Spanish Election; yellow card for Bush & Tony Blair...
March 17, 2004 - 07:23 AM
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____________________________________________________________
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by emilio16 "To Adeyemi, actually the attack on 9/11 was planned almost a year in advance. You think you can plan an attack of this magnitude in a few months? Furthermore, I find it quite rediculous that you blame Bush for the attacks of 9/11. It seems as if he is suddenly to blame. He was only in power for a few months and hadden't made any plans to attack any countries. The terrorist simply wanted to strike America because they are Americans not because Bush was in power.
____________________________________________________________
What exactly re you talking about here? Look, it has been in G. Bush plan before he mysteriously won the so-called 2000 US Election largely based on manipulation of figure and some other malpractices. Bush invaded Iraq not bcos of anything other than to accomplish his father's agenda on Saddam. The presence of American armies in Iraq is basically to get rid of those that opposed american imperialism; and to ensure smooth tapping of Iraq oil.
They 've done it in Venezuela and that is why there is continous political imbroglio in the country. Or would you tell me that Venezuela harbours terrorist? History is there to consult for proper understanding! My question is that "why did America invaded Afghanistan? Would you say it's for regime change? Emphatic NO! It's all in retaliation to 9/11 because their fake and useless inteligence that misguided them on Iraqi's WMD has told them that Afghans are behind 9/11.
Before Iraq was brutally invaded, Bush claimed that Iraq goverenment has got WMD and He and other allies like Britain wanted to make sure Iraq's WMD programmed is stopped and totally destroyed. Later, it was the "threat" posed by Saddam Hussain to the world peace. But now Bush has changed his claim and guess what? It's now "regime change". We are not all as fool as other who supported him.
You know what his friend Tony Blair is saying now ..."that inteligence misguided them; that he "thought" Iraq is capable of deploying its WMD within 45 seconds. And since they've been in Iraq, NO WMD HAD BEEN DISCOVERED! Can we all see where they went wrong...? They are now making life more difficult for Westerners home and abroad in their bid to make the so-called "peace". Tell G.Bush that he can't make peace with retaliation because two wrongs will never make a right...
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Spanish Election; yellow card for Bush & Tony Blair...
March 17, 2004 - 08:58 AM
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Thanks Brandy
- Adeyemi, I'll tell you what - if the US does not hand the government back over to the Iraqi - then it is imperielism - but I don't think America wants to stay in Iraq any longer than it takes to set up a democracy.
As far as "faulty" intelligence leading to the invasion of Afghanistan - no one but you is disputing that Bin Laden was hiding in Afghanistan - even the Taliban didn't dispute that he was there - this was well known far in advance of 9/11.
And no reasonable person at this point is disputing that Bin Laden is the leader of Al Qaeda and that Al Qaeda is responsible for 9/11.
While no WMD have been found in Iraq - plenty of Al Qaeda training facilities have been found in Afghanistan. Top Al Qaeda operatives have been captured there and in Pakistan.
Frankly I don't know what you are talking about. You seem to want to make the war in Afghanistan out to be something that it clearly isn't.
These are the obvious facts regarding that war -
1. The US had no economic interest in the country
2. The US had no pre 9/11 adgenda to invade Afghanistan.
3. Bin Laden and the Al Qaeda terrorist network was based in Afghanistan - not only with training camps and planning centers, but also a healthy opium trade to fund their activities.
4. Al Qaeda was responsible for 9/11
I can understand being angry at Bush over Iraq - I am angry with him - and sure, Saddam tried to kill his dad - Bush had a personal interest in the war.
As an American Tax payer I can't beleive that we are spending all our money in Iraq instead of on schools over here, or say buying up Russias uranium stockpiles to keep them out of terrorists hands.
But there is no denying that this will be a net benefit for the Iraqis - they are no longer living under a brutal dictatorship - they now have freedom of religion and freedom of speech. They now have control of their own economy instead of all their money going to fund lavish palaces.
Its also worth noting that we are spending billions to rebuild the country - not just from damage we did - but from the neglect to infrastructure that 20 years of Saddam left them with. We practically spending more on building schools over there than we are at home.
I don't know that this makes the war right mind you - but it is not a simple black and white issue.
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christopher james brady
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Re: Spanish Election; yellow card for Bush & Tony Blair...
March 17, 2004 - 10:32 AM
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"American Imperialism" is a misnomer, Adeyemi. PLease review history of true imperialism such as Spanish, Portugese and especially British throughout the past five hundred years or so. THOSE are examples of imperialism, where a foreign government establishes rule over another culture for its own economic gain. American involvement in the oil countries, for example, never involved such brutality (political support for the Shah of Iran is as close as it came. This was unfortunate, but was not imperialism). Look at the agreements in the fifties of corporations with governments in nearly all the middle eastern countries and see how they set a new precedent for how corporations could work with local populations without a foreign government coming in and setting up rule. The United States government isn't perfect, just as no government is, for sure. But they shouldn't be accused of something that didn't happen.
So how could someone say that the killing of innocent people in Spain is the result of American imperialism in the middle east? (If you read your posts, which I did several times, that is really what you are saying). The bombing in Spain is the result of some religious fanatics who premeditated a way to murder a bunch of innocent, unarmed, and unsuspecting people.
And by the way, if the war in Iraq was/is so bad, why were the people in large numbers dancing in the streets? (And don't tell me they weren't. I've interviewed SEVERAL people who were/are there).
Let's condemn hatred worldwide by ANYBODY!!!! Shall we?
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Spanish Election; yellow card for Bush & Tony Blair...
March 18, 2004 - 01:09 AM
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Adeyemi - I don't understand - its OK to go to war without the UN's approval (like we did in Kosovo) so long as our reasons are ones that you personally agree with?
If you are going to say that we have to have UN approval then be consistant.
You have this rosy view of the UN - but they don't have their acts together - the UN has a long history of failure and inactivity.
I certainly think that givin the lack of immenant danger Bush could have build broader international support - but that said - why in the world would we cede to coutries like France and Russia - veto power over our military decisions? There is evidence now to suggest that they were both taking money from Saddam.
And does it escape you that 70% of Iraqis in a recent poll are glad we did what we did. And about the same amount want us to stay there until there is stability?
To say "America has brought problems to Iraq" - is to deny that Iraq had serious problems before we got there - namely brutal dicatatorship.
By the way - exactly what US action led to the begginning of terrorism again? How is this our fault? I had the crazy idea that terrorism has been around for a long time - the assasination of the Arch-duke which led to WW1 - I don't think that had anything to do with the US.
Even modern Islamic fundamentalism had its begginning in French and English occupation.
More to the point - there is no justification for terrorism - that is why it is not a matter of appeasement - you can't appease terrorists - it doesn't work - all you will do is encourage them.
The reason that they hit the US was not because the hate us and love Europeans - its because we are the most visable target. That and the WORLD Trade Center was just that - a symbol of the western world.
You are just living in a fantasy to beleive that they aren't coming after you - regardless of whether or not you are allied with us. They hate you because of your western values - so long as you want to give women rights, be christian, and have freedom of speech - with globalization being a trend that will certainly continue into the future - they are coming after you.
It is sort of like the policy of appeasement that England and France had when Germany invaded Poland. As Winston Churchill put it in 1940, "an appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile hoping it will eat him last".
To say this war is not yours - its like saying the Nazis were not your problem until that actually started bombing you.
Finally - To say we went to war in Afghanistan over an oil pipeline is just rediculous - you can't honestly beleive that - how was that pipeline threatened or an issue?
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