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Umi A.
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WARNING! This update contains very strong subject material....
March 11, 2002 - 01:56 AM
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...This is something i recently recieved and I don't think I can let it pass without talking about it
Click here to see what prompted this update, or continue reading.
Since I have nothing to do with this conflict, I will not name the parties concerned. However, this is a resultant of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This particular photograph shows two soldiers getting their pictures taken alongside a member of the force from the opposite side that they just killed. This shocked me specifically because it reminded me of people having their pictures taken with the fish they catch when they go fishing. Their grins of pride are so familiar, and yet the subject of their pride is the life they have taken.
What bothers me is that to them, this is normal and even patriotic. The youth of both nations are being bred to instigate hateful thoughts and acts against the other. To the youth of Israel and Palestine, the killing of someone from the opposite side is portrayed as a noble and a heroic act. I think that these two countries are in dire need of peace education. Tolerance is not integrated in their education and they are consistently taught to harbour these hateful feelings towards the opposite side.
Once again, this is my opinion. I am a Canadian, what do I know about such conflicts? I am also not taking sides, because I believe that acts of violence are being instigated by both sides. Besides, what matters is not who is more to blame, but rather what can be done to possibly reduce this hateful mindset.
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vivek
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Re: WARNING! This update contains very strong subject material....
March 11, 2002 - 02:31 AM
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liked the way you put it.
i think its inhuman to pose like that in frount of a person u killed.
i think even fishing is a hunt. it isint any peaceful if u killing a fish and posing with it either. (atleast, i have such values)
but lets look at it practically...
the palestine war..
i think that the hate and killings wont stop till the issue is solved once and for all.
do how much ever peace education u want, you cant stop people from hating if they got a reason to do so.
infact, then i wouild be again against peace education. coz then u will again get down to GANDHIJIs principles... where one side displays all the peace and expects to win the other sides compassion and the other side keeps kicking u around. dont think you will ever get a solution like that.
concentrate on the solution more than peace education and stuff. and if there is a peaceful solution, implement it. if not, then violence is the best weapon of change and history has proven it.
may you wont like the last line, but its the truth.
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Umi A.
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But can this issue ever be resolved?
March 11, 2002 - 02:41 AM
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Is there a more peaceful way to resolve this conflict? The way you put it, they should resort to violence. In terms of this, both countries are now on their way to complete and utter genocide. And, obviously, the result of this war will cause further conflicts between the two religions outside the conflict. If they just kill each other, the conflict will not end. In the eyes of those who will continue, their predecessors died for a noble cause. It would just trigger a never ending cycle of crime and violent behaviour...
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Vanessa Currie
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Re: WARNING! This update contains very strong subject material....
March 11, 2002 - 04:54 AM
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I recently started working at War Child Canada, which is a great place to take these feelings and put them into action! AS well as get in touch with other youth who are facing conflict situaiotns in their country.
If you want more info you can email me vanessa@warchild.ca
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Robert Margolis
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True, however...
March 11, 2002 - 05:11 AM
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Vivek makes a strong point that violence can achieve certain prescribed goals on a much quicker timescale than MLK or Gandhi techniques. The question then becomes: at what cost? Often the limited goals of the initial war are obtained only to sow the seeds of the next. WWI going to WWII is the classic example.
Ideally, the Israelis would live inside the "green line" (pre-1967 borders) and the Palestinians would have a state in Gaza and West Bank with Jerusalem some kind of shared city. The reality is that many on both sides want the "whole pie". Until this changes, there will be problems. Also for consideration is that Israel likely has nuclear weapons, so reprocussions from any war would go far beyond just the Israel/Palestine area.
Violence will produce a QUICK solution, not necessarily the optimum solution.
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vivek
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Re: WARNING! This update contains very strong subject material....
March 12, 2002 - 02:07 AM
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i understand, both countries are on their way to a complete genocide. this shouldnt have happened.
and the worst part of all this is, they get religion involved in it.
actually, before we do any sort of peace education in this case, we have to preach religious tolerance. but then you have to make sure, both sides have it, not just one. anyways, thats another story.
and BTW, gandhian ways are the worst.
i personally think, from whatever bit i have observed from history, gandhi was a total failure, a person who not just delayed indian freedom, but also made us feel ashamed of the way we got it. i think i hate gandhi.
whatever solution you think for palestine-israel conflict, i think its fine if you even resolve it by violence. (and BTW, israel will never throw a nuclear bomb on palestine, atleast as far as my understanding goes, coz as it is, israel has an upperhand and besides, palestine is a very small place and very close by to israel. so if they throw a bomb, all the nuclear radioactive dust will come into israel, israel will face all the ill effects.)
but, dont by anychance think that the conflict is going to be resolved by gandhian ways, coz in gandhian ways, the guy who tries to be a gandhi, always loses.
but... when i think of such conflics, i think UN is such a waste of an organization. afterall, this is what UN was formed for. to see to it that international issues are resolved peacefully.
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Mike
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errr, VIVEK!
March 13, 2002 - 07:31 AM
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Something tells me Vivek that you are both irrational and misguided. But if my personal opinion doesnt convince you, maybe this will.
i understand, both countries are on their way to a complete genocide
Not true. For one, Palestine is not a country, it is merely a conceived notion that land settled predominantly by Muslims is owned by Muslims, thus, that same area of land is entitled by Jewish 'Law' to belong to the Jews by right of God. More correctly, it was overrun by the Israeli army after various outbreaks through modern history.
The genocide bit is correct, but Israel is capable, and has shown that it is capable, of wiping out the Muslims in the disputed territories. Whether or not that is its intention, by hand of its Government, is yet to be determined.
Im not sure what kind of person you are to say Ghandi achieved nothing. I can say for certain right now, that he had achieved more than me and you and many others combined ever will.
That said, would you still want to be living as a British colony at this point in history, where your neighbours are rather . . .anti-west?
Peaceful movements always take longer, but they are almost always successful in the end. The problem is, as the world moves faster - it is often difficult for two warring parties to just drop everything and start a movement for peace, though a villiage in Sri Lanka did cause a peace resolution with the Tamil Tigers - which surprised everyone - so who can tell really!
By the way you described the israeli 'nuclear' threat - it seems your a little mis-guided over whats actually happening over there.
For one, Israel wouldnt use nukes (doesn anyone actually know if they have any in working condition?) because "Palestine" IS Israel. They are not next to each other, they are IN each other. God help them if a nuke was to go off and take out the two temples!! Then you would really see what an Intifadah is like!
Theres a problem with the UN. The problem is that it is a democracy, and democracies are no good at solving a religious conflict for 2 reasons, the first being neither side is all that willing to sit down and talk over their problems and go home and fix it, and the second problem is that it is next to impossible for each side to control its own radical groups.
That said, i think your acting a little irrational.
- - -
Pred.
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Robert Margolis
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Gandhi
March 13, 2002 - 08:47 AM
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I must admit that Vivek is the first person I have encountered (never met Winston Churchill...) who does not think much of Gandhi. From what I read, Gandhi was a truly bizarre individual (the Attenborough film did not show any of this). It is also true that his methods took 30 years to gain a partioned India. Could a different leader in India have arose to unite them and lead a war of independence sooner? I do not have the answer, but Gandhi at least must be given credit for his patience and perseverence. My reading of history (Vivek please chime in) is that the Indian National Congress was a small elite that was making slow progress on Indian independence. My guess is that historians consider Gandhi a crucial factor in bringing about independence.
There were times when Gandhi went over the top. He advocated his methods against Hitler. Even the pacifist Einstein thought this a BAD idea.
Most famous leaders have dumb ideas as well. Mr. Churchill, after all, was the architect of Gallipoli.
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Joanna Frizzell
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Re: WARNING! This update contains very strong subject material....
March 13, 2002 - 09:33 AM
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Vivek, I have to say that I don't understand you being so set in Gandhi being a failure. Gandhi proved that sheer will can change just about anything. His actions have promoted peaceful revolutionary movement. He is an example to everyone of the power that one individual can have. He has inspired the world over, obviously expcept for you. And remember we call him Mahatma Gandhi, and Mahatma means great soul (I'm sure you know that). Even if you don't agree with the man's actions or tactics I think you would have to respect him at least.
As far as the Palistinians and Israelis, I don't know if any peaceful measures taken will ever work. Every time I think about that part of the world I think of all the blood that has stained the ground of that land for ages and ages. The best idea in this case, I think, would be to get a hold of the children and teach them a better way of living and interacting. I think that as long as the parents keep on filling their children's hearts with hatred for their neighbor, blood will continue to stain that sacred ground. I only see war, and I wish I didn't. Both countries are going to have to make an 180 degree turn in the other direction before anything can be resolved. Either way this kind of conflict takes a lot of concessions and a lot of comprimise, both things I think are especially hard for both countries. Nobody wants to lose any ground, or give up any ground. And I do believe that only bad news will be coming from Palestine, at least until the tides of change carry in new ideas and people to carry them out.
That is all for now. Smiles, hugs, and my love to everyone.
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Umi A.
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I agree with Joanna
March 13, 2002 - 11:14 AM
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I think that is what I meant when I mentioned peace education. Obviously this generation of Palestinians and Israelis has adapted to their conception of "patriotism". However, the younger more impressionable generation needs to be educated so that they do not adapt to this consequential theorization.
Yes, I do understand that the two nations have embarked on a self ignited "genocide". However, once that is over, what should emerge from within should not be an extended version of the hate they have bred, but rather a hope for tolerance and an understanding of cultural diversity and togetherness.
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vivek
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Re: WARNING! This update contains very strong subject material....
March 14, 2002 - 01:45 AM
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I think this thread is drifting away a bit... anyways.
Look preddy, stop quoting me like an idiot. I said both sides are on their way to a genocide coz afaceinthemoonlight had said something like that before. I was just using his words.
And BTW, Israel and Palestine are not one anymore. Palestine has it own authority, its own govt. guess you must’ve heard of Yaseer Arafat. The place has it own foreign minister, defence minister, home minister, media spokesperson, et all.
And as far as Gandhi is concerned, I think I have heard/read/seen more about him than I think you. And besides, since Gandhi was an Indian leader, I wont raise a finger on him without any reason.
What kind of person I am… the kind who can think and read between the lines after having all the facts instead of being blinded by propaganda.
Now, for Palestine. As far as today’s day is concerned, Palestine has its own authority and is governed by Palestinian representatives. The war is more about you-kill-our-people-and-so-we-kill-yours. Nothing related to religion as of today. If Palestine militants don’t do anything for a year, Israel army wont go into Palestine areas to find any militants there to massacre and along with them, kill innocent people also.
But the problem is, since Palestinians are weak, they try to associate religion with it so as to gather sympathy from muslim community throughout the world. Since Israel clearly has an upper hand and since muslims there are singled out, muslims from all over the world go there to fight. Muslims from places like Indonesia, Russia, Pakistan, Arabia, afghan, Iran, Iraq, in short all places not concerned at all, go there to fight. And then since this war involves a community i.e. muslims, they label it as a holy war.
Then, since even the peaceful muslims in the world feel sympathetic, they start funding these fundamentalist organizations. As a result, these fundamentalist organizations grow so big that some thing major like taleiban and osama bin laden crops up.
As a result of this, where ever in the world there is some issue and has muslim population involved, it get a religious turn. We have parasites like Pakistan doing this in Kashmir. Since Pakistan is in no way any sort of a match for India, they do a proxy war and for this, they get readily available fundamentalist youth who will do anything to be a martyr in the name of islam and get their short cut to heaven not knowing or trying to think who are we fighting for, what are we fighting for, who is rite and who is wrong and for whome are we dying.
Same thing for chechniya (Russia). Somehow since muslims are involved, its gets a fundamentalist turn.
Not to mention all the religious/fundamentalist schools they start in the name of islam (the madrassas) who start training children right from the childhood how their community is targeted by the world and how they should fight back in the name of islam and if they become martyars they go to heaven, killing their reasoning power and blackening their future.
And then religion takes a very violent turn and reinterpretation of Koran starts. Women are supposed to cover themselves from head to toe or else acid is poured on their face. I think no other community in the world oppresses women as much as muslims do today. Don’t need to say much about it, open fact. But also the children become the victims now. Parents feel its more important for a child to know what is written in the Koran than knowing how to operate a computer. Education ends and madness of un-reasoned fundamentalism starts.
And then Koran is interpreted in ways like this. Koran says that child is the gift of god and abortion is a sin. Fine. But the way people interpret it, its okay to have 12 children. It’s a gods gift. If we can afford to feed them or not is a different issue.
And then, if a husband says 3 times talak-talak-talak to a woman, he gets divorce. So simple. Some people use it so conveniently to their advantage. But can we make any amendments related to this in the constitution. No, coz this is what is written in Koran and cant have amendments in Koran.
I see complete and utter stupidity going on in the muslim communities in india as well as abroad in the name of religion and religious fanaticism.
Moral of the story, due to this one issue of Palestine, an entire community of muslims feels insecure, has gone crazy, turned into fundamentalist maniacs, made a militant like anti-peace image out of themselves, got out of the path of real development and intend to take the world back into medieval ages and fight a crusade-jehad style war.
I think if I had to analyze the situation and think who is at a fault, I think it would be the UN. The basic reason for starting an organization like UN was that it should be able to resolve all international disputes. But UN is the kind of organization, which prefers to keep itself away from the real issues and rather concentrate on the non-issues.
I think UN is a great concept but unfortunately handled by very incompetent people. How? I don’t think this is the best place to put it. I think afaceinthemoonlight had started this thread with a very good intention and putting it here would be wrong. Coz then the topic will drift away from the main issue in this thread, which was, if you bothered to notice, how human beings are turning into animals, thirsty of each other’s blood and somehow, someone needs to tech them that this is not right.
To put something related to this thread, I think the world needs a real messiah, a saint, a true gods representative today, capable of performing miracles BUT not wanting to start a new religion.
Coz this is the worst thing to have happened to this planet. People fighting and killing each other in the name of god just because they interpret him differently.
But…. I think this had to happen. Lord Krishna (hindu diety) has said in the bhagwad geeta that this is the rule of the nature. That evil keeps raising its head slowly but steadily. But, when evil becomes unbearable, a messiah is born to kill the evil.
And in the yug (period of time) we are living, the evil is not any person or a beast. The evil is going to rise in the peoples mind. Every one is going to be evil in some way or the other. But when things will go too much out of hand, he (god, lord Krishna) will be foced to re-incarnate himself on the planet.
Maybe lord Krishna will start with peace education then. Lets look upto him.
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Javier Volosin
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Just a Question for Vivek
May 3, 2002 - 09:32 AM
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Hi Vivek! I wont get involved in the discussion because I have mixed feelings about the conflict. On one side Im jewish, I have family who had loved people killed because of this, and I also have one of my best friends (a very peaceful young man, by the way) fighting for the israeli army. Not for a personal conviction, I guess, but because he had to leave Argentina to find a better place to live.
Anyway, here comes the question. Once I was talking with an Indian friend and she told me something very similar to what you are saying about Ghandi. She blamed him for not being able to form an India in which both, hindus and muslims could live together in peace. Besides, she had some other critics that I can't remember now. Does your dissapointment, or whatever you would like to call it, has anything to do with this?
Thanks a lot! Peace and love in Babylon!
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vivek
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Re: WARNING! This update contains very strong subject material....
May 3, 2002 - 10:22 AM
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its not just that.
i had posted a thread on gandhi. a very long one (3-4 pages something).
you might get ur answers there.
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