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Camilla Noble-Warren
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The cause of war
April 12, 2001 - 09:21 AM
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Hi,
How is war created? How can we prevent it? I think to understand this we really seriously have to go to the roots, more than we usually realise we can. Isn’t it true that the war, and many other world problems are the direct result of causes that lie within our individual selves. It is just that war is more destructive and spectacular , but it is the collective result of our individual activities.
We often try various clever ways to change the outward system, but this just polishes the edges up a bit, remains static and needs to be changed sooner or later, and more importantly never actually creates the complete revolution we need. To actually seriously once and for all do that, it seems you need to deal with the real creator of the problem, which is ‘you and me’ in our relationship. because society is the product of this relationship.
What happens I think is that we create images of ourselves and the others, and stick to different beliefs. I’m a Canadian, you are American, or i’m English you’re German, i’m Moslem or Christian .. and these images and beliefs are in conflict with each other.
But are we truly separate in that way?? Where did these images come from? Is it possible that we created them out of fear? (fear of being empty and of being psychologically insecure).
War is also caused because we are greedy for power, prestige, money... We may talk about peace, have conferences sit around a table and discuss, plan legislation etc., but we will not win peace because inwardly we will not give up our position, our authority, our properties, money, our stupid lives!
Do we want to look at ourselves with these issues, and if not is that the other problem?
Even though we can not go and stop the wars at the moment, we can understand the causes of wars, and especially as youth turn our back on them and begin to build a society that does not produce wars.
If we could actually feel the responsibility of our own actions, how quickly things would change!
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Alana
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War
April 13, 2001 - 11:24 AM
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Camilla,
Hi. I have just read your post and I think that your feelings about war really echo what a lot of youth today are saying. They say "war is useless", "war is stupid" and "war is pointless". I was wondering if you read my thread called "Is peace a western phenomenon" because I take a whole different stance on war and peace. Like I said in my thread, we Westerners do things differently than other places and can't expect everyone else to do things the same way as us. The first person who responded to my post had a brilliant idea, saying that perhaps the only reason the West doesn't engage in war is because we have too much to lose. I think that I'd be willing to accept that as one of the main reasons. How 'bout you?
I also wanted to mention the fact that even though on the surface things in the West seem better than things elsewhere, sometimes this is nothing more than a facade.
Take racism, for example. There are many plaes in the world where racism is rampant. Whites hate blacks and blacks hate whites. People walk down the streets and give eachother dirty looks, and the blame can equally be placed on both sides. Conversely, in North America, we preach tolerance, acceptance, love for our fellow human being (not that I'm against this or anything). But, don't you sometimes get the feeling that some people don't really learn acceptance, tolerance and love? I feel that some people simply learn to keep their mouths shut and let their emotions boil inside of them. I'm not sure the actual problem of racism in North America is being solved, but I think we've found a pretty bandaid solution. Quotas in the work place have allowed us to say "Hey everybody look! We aren't racist in North America, most business have blacks, whites, asians and everyone else working for them!! Isn't that nice!!" The truth of the matter is, our society will never truly be free of racism until we can get rid of these silly quotas and hire the best people for the jobs. If that means having entire companies of blacks, or entire companies of disabled people....who cares!! At least we know that the best people for the jobs are actually getting the jobs they deserve right!?!
So basically, I think that by masking peoples true feelings (the good and the bad), we will never really be able to learn if we are a truly racism-free society. I know that if we let people show their true feelings, many people could be affected (minorities in particular), but I'm confident that soon enough, people would REALLY get tired of the intolerance and would finally be accepting....for real!
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Camilla Noble-Warren
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Re: The cause of war
April 14, 2001 - 08:45 AM
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Hi Elana. About having too much to lose in the west. It’s a valid point. Another main reason could be because the west are economically better off in general, more money can be spent on education so they could become more enlightened (?), people are more content physically so they have less to be upset and fight about.. But also armed war in west has occurred still quite recently, enough to be wary of starting another one too soon. .
As you said the view that it is better, is a facade. Conflict in many other ways than armed conflict are hugely abundant. The west are generally just as bad psychologically as anywhere..
War may even start again, ?(anti ballistic missile threat by bush etc.) We have never experienced it so we don’t think it’s possible.
About stopping quotas for racism. I think that people may react to it in different ways. In a way the quotas might give a person more of the impression that its ok to be tolerant of each other. (Conversely people may not learn tolerance because of the education they have from society system around them.) For another, it may have the effect of repressing it. It’s true that people nowadays are tending to think differently, but then again they might not..
We have come up with these various ways of covering the things that cause problems up and repressing them , because it seems the only way we have known how.. But you have seen this way of doing it never actually changes anything! It fact it can make it worse. For another eg. The religion Islam has desperately/drastically tried to cover up sexual lust and all the problems that come with it, but even so nothing has actually changed inside, people are still eaten up by their fear and the conflict between wanting to not do it but thinking it anyway.
If we really seriously actually want to change things so that it never comes back again, i think the way is by facing the issue in yourself, not trying to escape but really looking at it. I think that trying to change the outward system will never change anything, because it is our own minds that created the outward system, and will keep creating it if it is not the thing looked at. For example if I ever find myself reacting violently if someone hurts me, or thinking someone from another group is not as good as me, then that would be the true thing to deal with. Do you know the saying, you must be the change you want to see in the world? (by Ghandi)
But again I think the problem is that people don’t want to do this and/or they just want a quick fix. ?
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Camilla Noble-Warren
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Re: The cause of war
April 17, 2001 - 01:21 AM
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Hi,
But what happens if one's desire to make their civilisation better conflicts with another group's desire? Why are we generally not interested in this aim with the same strength for the whole world?
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Robert Margolis
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Re: The cause of war
April 17, 2001 - 02:31 AM
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"Why are we generally not interested in this aim with the same strength for the whole world? "
I wish I could give you an answer to this one. I have only observed that people can be especially provincial at times. I have seen this trait rarely in those who are widely traveled (or even widely read). Didn't Plato say something like, "No one intentionally seeks to do evil, they just lack breadth of vision with regards to their actions."?
I can give you a (humorous?) example. As the neighborhood rep in our homeowners association in Virginia I have often discussed issues with neighbors. I have often gotten comments on the Association Director such as "He tries to make us like associations in New York" or "He doesn't use a 'Virginia' approach." They speak as though New York is an alternate quantum reality without considering the merits of the ideas themselves.
My only hope is that groups such as TIG can bridge some of these gaps and help people understand the different perspectives.
As this relates to patriotism, understanding one's own history and culture provides the foundation to understand others so long as such patriotism does not become a blind chauvinism (i.e. nationalism).
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Camilla Noble-Warren
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Re: The cause of war
April 17, 2001 - 07:10 AM
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What does everyone think about about nationalism? Is it a good thing?
Why does a person 'love their country? (ie more than anywhere else)
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Robert Margolis
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Re: The cause of war
April 17, 2001 - 08:11 AM
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Perhaps one can differentiate nationalism and patriotism. If patriotism is a pride (though not arrogance) in one's culture, society, and place of citizenship combined with a desire to make such even better, I would call it a virtue. If nationalism is the "my country, right or wrong" notion with an arrogant disregard for other societies, cultures and nations, I would call that a dangerous anachronism.
Unfortunately, there is probably too much nationalism and far too little patriotism.
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Camilla Noble-Warren
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Re: The cause of war
May 1, 2001 - 03:15 AM
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I am sorry for the long delay, I would just still like to give a response. I think that I can actually give an indication as to why we are not interested, why we have wars.. I agree it is lack of vision, of a vision though that goes much deeper than we are used to going.
The understanding of the cause of war and so the real complete solution, lies in asking the question of the cause to yourself, when you have a conflict with another- like a girlfriend/boyfriend, parent or a group of people. Our relationship to each other is usually based on dependence, and especially in psychological dependence this creates fear, and breeds in us possessiveness, friction, suspicion, frustration, sorrow. This dependence is the outcome of craving for personal satisfaction, happiness etc.
If we depend on our happiness for another, on society, on a belief/ideal, they become essential to us, and we cling on to them, and any alteration of these we violently oppose because we depend on them for our psychological security and comfort. We intellectually see there is a need for constant change, but emotionally we cling to these comforting values. So there is this constant battle between change and the desire for permanency. A question to put is it possible to put an end to this conflict? Can one love and yet not possess?
I think the answer can be found only when we have a true understanding of the causes of dependence and possessiveness, not in various escapes, ideals or beliefs. So what is the cause of the craving? Of our greed? How does it work? I think it is important to look at it as if it is the most INTERESTING thing you’ve seen, as if it is an amazing animal or jewel. And to have patience for the answer, possibly not even to seek it, but to wait for it to unfold.
We always have a barrier to this sort of thing, we are not interested, we have not been for the history of mankind.. but that in itself makes me want to drop the barrier.
This concept is directed firstly at the individual, and then in my veiw in education to point other people and your children in this direction. I think that is how to move towards the eradication of war.
I am sorry for the long speech again, but I am madly interested to see what other people think of this and discuss on this subject. Does it make sense? Is it a new concept to you? Will you now think about these aspects in yourself?
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Robert Margolis
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Re: The cause of war
May 1, 2001 - 03:59 AM
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If what you refer to is the displacement of others' humanity and dignity over our own desires, then I agree it is a factor. It is very easy to go out and kill people if they are considered "mere impediments" to one's own "worthy goals". When we see people as people with an equal right to pursue their lives it becomes more difficult to justify a war against them.
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Camilla Noble-Warren
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Re: The cause of war
May 4, 2001 - 03:06 AM
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Hi, Eisenhower sounded like he made sense, better than the present president!! I’ve just been getting annoyed about it all..
It’s going to be hard, but never mind lets get on with it immediately, its vital! that’s my view. The question is am I or you going to now look in to this issue of fear in ourselves? I would like this discussion to be more about our individual psychology, than about outward goings on, because I see that as the real cause. And it’s something we can actually grasp hold of right now. What do you think? If we did I think this discussion would be extremely valuable and revolutionary.
Do you think we could end up to have a separate forum on this sort of thing? What does everyone think? I would find some way of outlining more what I mean by this if wanted.
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Camilla Noble-Warren
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Re: The cause of war
May 4, 2001 - 06:10 AM
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Yes that’s true
I think that we try to identify ourselves with the larger group, a country or a religion as a way of seeking happiness, and we become dependant on that, because otherwise you are empty. And we are deeply afraid of that.
It is understanding this fear in ourselves that is the key to eradicating war. This has to be done before trying to convince others ( i think i’m a hypocrite!) in fact when you do though it affects others like a wave of influence around you. I think fear is the thing that creates trouble everywhere you look .
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Robert Margolis
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Re: The cause of war
May 4, 2001 - 11:37 AM
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Dwight Eisenhower said something to the effect that one day people will want peace so badly that governments will have to get out of the way.
Of course, besides the wanting, people may also have to change some things. For example, the US maintains a large presence in the Persian Gulf mainly because the world is so hooked on oil.
Changing ourselves and our societies to make peace a reality will be the hard part. After all, if there is just one "bad apple" then there will always be a threat of war.
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Camilla Noble-Warren
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Re: The cause of war
May 5, 2001 - 05:56 AM
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Hello hello, ok i’m revved to try and explain this. Individual psychology is The FUNDAMENTAL cause of war i'm not usually sure about much, but this i know. I want to try and show you this. Please give me the benefit of the doubt and put more thought to it, read what I wrote earlier etc. It isn’t me that initiated this understanding, it has been taught by great teachers for centuries.
You said people are conditioned to wage war, I see people are made much more violent this way, i think its its very important to curb this sort of 'education,' although i still think the fundamental tendencies of fear are still there, as you said more powerful people use this to manipulate. If fear was not there, they would have nothing to manipulate. And also I say very excitedly, conditioning we have is also something to question and possibly drop. Who developed this conditioning in the first place as well? Why did the pastoral invaders invade? (wasn't it becasue of fear. I think war/conflict has been ever since humans began though?
No it wasn't too diatribical, it's a good word  i didn't know it before
I wrote this paragraph earlier but didn’t put it in maybe it explains more:
I mean this fear of losing ‘happiness’ relates to why one group is afraid of being threatened in survival, or why one wants to extend themselves further, like America wanting to have as much power as possible, or when a christian wants to convert moslems or vice versa, or when an orthodox is angry because they were oppressed by catholic, or even when you get angry/jealous because your girlfriend/boyfriend went off with someone else! It all creates the same conflict which must be understood. and it comes back to the individual.
It is true that once we see war in its final big stage, there are many reason for its development, economic, social, but these are the superficial reasons. When we look for the reasons for these, it is because of people, and people are individuals, and the individuals are you and me, and then you look to see what is happening in the individuals you and me, the root of the problem.
You are looking for external reasons for war, that is other people being bad is the cause. Not that the fear that causes it is what we all share.
Regardless of what the true reasons are, the aspect of psychology can still be addressed here and changed all dependent on our will, whereas the other issues can’t be so immediately. So if we are really serious lets do it. Are you the person reading, going to look at this fear in yourself? After all it is at least agreed that this is one of the reasons for war/conflict.
ps. Does this make sense to you? Its a new understanding, not many people seem to think/see it yet. But i really think this is revolutionary. We have advanced so far with outward investigations, but we are not very far in understanding our own selves
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Robert Margolis
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Re: The cause of war
May 5, 2001 - 08:56 AM
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I am not sure I would prioritize individual psychology as high on the list on the causes of war. What most of us think of as war is a recent development in human cultural history. Basically an outgrowth of the first agricultural settlements fighting to keep their surpluses against pastoral invaders.
As far as individual psychology there is a bit of good news. Places like West Point or Sandhurst would be unnecessary if war were a fundamental psychological instinct. People must be conditioned psychologically to wage war. Certainly our individual fears and desires are factors used by others to rev up the population for war. However war is primarily a social invention that CAN be UNINVENTED. Maybe not tomorrow, but the work is both individual psychology AND economics AND sociology.
Hope I have not sounded too diatribical. :-)
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Robert Margolis
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Re: The cause of war
May 6, 2001 - 08:03 AM
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It is here that I must point my fellow discussion members to a book by Gwyn Dyer (a Canadian) called WAR. He traces the roots of war in the pastoral peoples eyeing the agricultural surpluses of the first cities. This view is also expressed by Ali Mazrui, Jacob Bronowski, and others. Certainly their individual fear of starvation was a significant motivator.
However the big change was instead of individuals or small groups of individuals killing others based on individual motivations, organized societies brought people together to kill large numbers of people they never met due to societal objectives. This was the major change that took people's individual fears and emotions and converted them into armies that could devastate civilizations and peoples.
To respond to the idea that war's origins and causes being societal takes the onus off the individual. This could not be further from the truth. As individuals we make consumer choices (e.g. using gas guzzling cars, stock investments in companies that exploit) that can increase or decrease the chances for war. THIS is where we need to control our fears and desires at the individual level to make an immediate difference. My apologies if this response has droned on too much.
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