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Luke Lieberman
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 28, 2004 - 06:40 AM
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People need to make areal effort to keep things short - because some of this stuff is so loooooong.
Anyway look - an effort does need to be made to respect others and their cultures - that doesn't mean thatyou should attack a religion - because it is all a matter of interpretation - which parts are still relevant in modern society.
If Muhammed took a 9 year old wife - then simply recognise that 1500 years ago this was not unusual - most girls were married by 12 - people did not live very long back then - 25 year olds were middle aged people.
In terms of the place of women of muslim society - I think it has less to do with Muhammed than later muslim leaders - but I agree that it is something to be worked on. Frankly the most troubling thing about the protests in Baghdad under Sistani is that I don't see any women involved - I see alot of men taking part but that is it.
I think the problem is not the religion so much as a prevailance of Conservative, regressive regeimes who use religion as a tool to oppress the people.
In Iran you have fundamentalist Cleric who have a harsh, strict interpretation of Islam and use the religion as a tool to preserve their power and oppress the people.
Don't worry - if there is anything history has taught us it is that the people always win in the end. If the Clerics will not allow reform than they invite civil unrest. A great American once said "Those who make peaceful change impossible, make violent revolution inevitable."
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 29, 2004 - 06:59 AM
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Originally posted by luke
Anyway look - an effort does need to be made to respect others and their cultures - that doesn't mean thatyou should attack a religion - because it is all a matter of interpretation - which parts are still relevant in modern society.
Dear Luke,
"Attack"?????
So you think to post information, scrutinize and bring issues out into the light about religions and the associated rituals and practices is an "attack"?
This thread is about Islam as the topic, why do you think to discuss and bring islam into the light for examination is an "attack"?
Do you seek to stifle debate based on this premise?
Here is a link to a discussion between a follower of Mohammed and an ex-follower of Mohammed.
(The opening post is particularly interesting)
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=131681&highlight=#131681
Here is another link that might be enlightening and give a good idea of what "attack" is all about.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/preacher_to_despot.htm
regards.
Porky.
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r g
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 30, 2004 - 01:05 AM
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My goal here is to inform neutral readers about the hidden & oppressive angles of certain ideologies. Such facts should make them resistant to conversions. Realistic?
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THINK!
January 30, 2004 - 01:25 AM
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From another forum, by "Isis".
Source:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=131812#131812
1) inheritance - muslim women who know Islam does and has always persecuted women try to claim a time when Islam treated women well - such a time never existed. They claim that allowing women to inherit half what a male could was advanced for the time but I have studied this claim and found that the inheritance laws were more complicated than at first appears and that women were likely to get little if anything and were restricted in what they could do with it.
How does this compare with the practice of the day? We know that mohammad's first wife was a wealthy widow - obviously she could inherit. She was a business woman who kept mohammad and probably stopped him from marrying any other women - she controlled the purse strings. Clearly she could run a business, sign documents, employ people and had some standing in society. she was not veiled etc.
I suspect mohammad was embarrassed by his low, dependent status (one wonders who inherited her wealth - was it her daughters?). Hence he set about ensuring women were made inferior to men in every way -
ega) he ensured women would always inherit far less than a male
b) he allowed women to sign only the most trivial documents ie two men could sign or a man and two women.
c) he veiled women, said they shouldn't be taught to write and restricted them to the home.
d) he said a woman's word was worth half that of a man and in many cases eg rape a woman's word alone was not enough -she had to have male witnesses. Hence he removed women's 'standing' before the law- rape is endemic in Muslim societies as it is the woman's fault and she is likely to charged instead with fornication/adultery and stoned to death or honour killed.
e) he endorsed polygamy for men which then became common practice so Muslim women became sex slaves/breeding cows in the private bordellos of muslim males along with his slaves and concubines.
f) he endorsed and practised child marriage sura 65.4, sahih Bukhari v5, book 58, no 236, Bukhari v7, book 62, no 64, 65, 88
Bukhari v5, book 58, no 234, 236. Sahih Muslim book 8 3311...
g) in the hadiths he described how to perform clitoridectomy and said it was a sign of respect for women etc so he took away forever the ability of Muslim women to experience full sexual pleasure as removing the clitoris (and often other tissue) is equivalent to cutting off the penis - the clitoris and head of the penis have the same nerves - how many men would happily have the penis cut off?
h) he allows men to beat women sura 4.34 and sodomise them sura 2.223
i) he practises slavery, sells women and children and rapes slave females - his men are also allowed to have sex with females captured in battle ...see 'trial of mohammad' in this site. suras 4.24, 33.49-51, 23.1,etc!
j) he has sex with his slaves, threatens his wives and revokes his oaths sura 66.1-5
k) he claims his right to be promiscuous sura 33.49-51
l) he practices what the Arabs at the time regarded as incest by having sex with his adopted son's wife whom he obtained by changing Arab custom with the help of a 'revelation' from allah sura 33.2-7
m) he says women pollute men, are deceitful etc suras 4.43, 5.6, 12.22-34...
n) he says women are inferior sura 3.36, 43.18 masses
o) paradise is filled with eternally virginal females ready to serve muslim men -lots of text
And more - when the text in the hadith and Islamic laws are added, women are abused and controlled in every way.
In Saudi Arabia the home of Islam with the koran as its constitution, women's equality is impossible - 11/9/03 Prominent Saudi clerics and academics warned Wednesday against calls for equality and increased rights for women, saying such efforts aim to make Muslim women more like "infidel" Western types. Efforts to give women greater rights are part of an anti-Islamic campaign spearheaded by the United States, said 130 Saudi sheiks and academics in a statement obtained by The Associated Press Wednesday.
It said efforts to change such traditions are "a vicious campaign from (the Muslim community's) enemy, led by the American government, to divert it from its faith."
The statement said equality between men and women is not possible under Islam.
Islam destroyed the freedom of Bedouin women who weren't veiled, chose husbands, worked the fields, travelled etc and Aristocratic women who had considerable rights, status and freedom..
I think mohammad was a pathetic man who lived off a wealthy widow but felt humiliated by this so when she died he ensured in his new religion which he now embarked on that women would be made inferior and dependent on men in every way!! Those women that protested felt the full sadism of Islamic law!
2) As for not changing the text of the koran - it was changed right from the start
The story of abd Allah b. Sa'd Abi Sarh (in Ali Dashti 'Twenty-three years: A study of the prophetic career of Mohammad. London 1985 p98) 'The last named had for some time been one of the scribes employed at Medina to write down revelations. On a number of occasions he had, with the prophet's consent, changed the closing words of verses. When the prophet had said "And god is mighty and wise" Abd Allah suggested writing down "knowing and wise" and the prophet answered that there was no objection. Having observed a succession of changes of this type, Abd Allah renounced Islam on the grounds that the revelations, if from god, could not be changed at the prompting of a scribe such as himself. After his apostasy he went to Mecca and joined the Qorayshites.
Read Ibn Warraq's book 'Why I am not a Muslim' 1995 or 'What the koran really says' to see that there are many changes and to give you a different view of Islam.
3) read some UN, Amnestry and human rights groups reports on honour killing, female genital mutilation, rape, child marriage, stoning etc and you will find that Muslims are the main culprits - and have brought these practices to western countries. Clearly rape occurs worldwide but Muslims in western countries are largely responsible eg in norway 65% of rapes are carried out by 'non-western' (muslim) men!
Ask yourself why even muslims flood to western countries but people from wsetern countries don't want to live in a muslim one! Surely if Islam was so great, Muslims and non-Muslims would rush to live in these countries - In truth Islamic countries are failures socially, economically, and politically. They are vicious and intolerant of others, oppressive to women.. Human rights and freedom don't exist.
Please use your brain and think - read your text and think about what it actually says - what sort of god makes so many errors (the moon shines with its own light..sura 10.5, the christian trinity is god/jesus and MARY? sura 4.169, 5.77, 5.116 and Mary, mother of Jesus is Moses' sister suras 19.28-29, 66.12 when moses lived 1200 before Jesus etc there are masses of them!!), believes in jinns, spells, evil eye; tells people to kill others and rewards those that do and punishes those that don't and that allows his prophet to kill, steal, lie and abuse little girls and women....
THINK!
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r g
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 30, 2004 - 08:52 AM
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Originally posted by luke
And yeah Porky - you've been attacking Islam - its that simple - I haven't heard you talk about anything else on any post except railing against Islam - get over it.
And whats wrong with that?
Muslims & athiests are constantly attacking Christianity and nobodys complaining.
Do not confuse people with ideology, my friend. There is nothing wrong with attacking or criticizing an ideology. In fact such discussions are healthy. Such criticisms are credited for the reformation of Christianity and Hinduism.
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 30, 2004 - 10:05 AM
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Originally posted by Brian
Before anyone continues in this dicussion please be aware of the new guidelines...
http://www.takingitglobal.org/discuss/guidelines.html
Especially point #4 under the [b]The User Should:
Note that these will be enforced from now on...
Thank you
Your friendly neighbourdhood Moderator
Brian[/B]
Use Should #4
"Have realistic goals in mind when starting or posting to a thread. Converting other discussion board members or trying to get them to subscribe to your every ideal is not a realistic or effective goal."
-----------------------------------------------
My goal in this thread is as the topic heading provides for i.e. " Issues / Cultural Diversity & Equity / What's been going on??? [b](Continuing Islamic discussions)"
Accordingly, my goal is to equitably examine and discuss Islam based on Islam's own literature and records and it's affect on the global community of today's world, seeking comment, discussion and debate on the subject matter, not on the individual.
My goal is NOT to "try to get them to subscribe to your every ideal".[/b]
----------------------------------------------
Dear Brian,
Kindly allow this thread to continue with the very important issue of Islam, as it is probably the main issue of concern globally.
Should posters violate the rules, then please deal with such posters as individuals rather than penalise the whole thread-community by closing the thread.
Regards.
Porky.
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 30, 2004 - 10:23 AM
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Originally posted by luke
Well I take it by your very defensive posture that you recognise your aggressive tendancies on this subject.
And yeah Porky - you've been attacking Islam - its that simple - I haven't heard you talk about anything else on any post except railing against Islam - get over it.
Dear Luke,
The topic is " Issues / Cultural Diversity & Equity / What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
-----------------------------------------------
I am not defending anything Luke and I am not being aggressive either.
Oh no Luke - I am not attacking Islam.
I am presenting information of concern, not only to me, but to many others globally; this thread's topic provides for this.
The information that I offer here is public information, much, if not all relates to the thread topic and much of this information is sourced from authorized islamic literature and records.
Now rather than "attack" Porky, why not stay with the program and discuss the subject matter?
What do you have to say about the material that I have offered, rather than the poster?
Regards.
porky.
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Brian Smith
连接： Dec 10, 2003
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 30, 2004 - 12:00 PM
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Before anyone continues in this dicussion please be aware of the new guidelines...
http://www.takingitglobal.org/discuss/guidelines.html
Especially point #4 under the The User Should:
Note that these will be enforced from now on...
Thank you
Your friendly neighbourdhood Moderator
Brian
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 30, 2004 - 12:16 PM
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Well I take it by your very defensive posture that you recognise your aggressive tendancies on this subject.
And yeah Porky - you've been attacking Islam - its that simple - I haven't heard you talk about anything else on any post except railing against Islam - get over it.
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Raymond M. Kristiansen
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 31, 2004 - 02:34 AM
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I have not posted many comments on the whole Islam discussion here on the forums, mostly, because I find the whole topic very boring. The same old arguments are being run through the mill over and over.
I understand that Porky dislikes Islam as a religion and that he considers it the very enemy of human rights & so on. Fair enough. We all are entitled to have our opinions.
Now let us use our emotional energy on something else than trolls.
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sean jayasekara
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 31, 2004 - 11:20 AM
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Dear xyz,
Originally posted by xyz2000
Please be honest and answer this question: Are we talking about people or messenger of God? Role model of all times and locations who we should imitate what he did? Please answer this and let finish this discussion.
I believe we should not imitate Prophet Muhammed, this is why I am not a Muslim. I believe we should imitate no-one! However some people believe otherwise and they are entitled to that belief, no matter how much others disapprove.
As for 'Role model for all times and places', in light of some of the information I have seen (if these info are true), maybe this should be revised. However there are sources such as Sufis that say the bulk of the Quarn and Hadiths was written properly years after Muhammeds death and is untrue!
MY ANSWER:
Because they are being ruled by secular governments not by Islamic ones. Now you answer this question: why all Muslim Countries that are ruled by Islamic Government have the same problems?!!!
[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I have no experience whatsoever of countries ruled by Islamic Governments and cannot answer this question.
If it solely Islam, why do not all Muslims think this way?
Like which one?
[/QUOTE]
Many Muslims think different to what these discussions have tried to imply!
Also, quote:
"If it is mentioned in Bible, by all means!!"
Look here
http://www.str.org/free/studies/capipuni.htm
Thanks for the link, I am not Christian.
[/QUOTE]
I know youre not, but by your rationale we should also attack the Bible
Why all of those who studied Islam for all of their lives reached to the same point? Why they claim that’s because it was said in Quran that life value of salves, men and women are not equal.
[/QUOTE]
I am not aware of this and statements like this encourage me to try to study the Quran.
Thank you
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sean jayasekara
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 31, 2004 - 11:23 AM
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Originally posted by luke
And yeah Porky - you've been attacking Islam - its that simple - I haven't heard you talk about anything else on any post except railing against Islam - get over it.
Very true!
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sean jayasekara
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 31, 2004 - 11:29 AM
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Originally posted by DoctorNO
Do not confuse people with ideology, my friend. There is nothing wrong with attacking or criticizing an ideology. In fact such discussions are healthy. Such criticisms are credited for the reformation of Christianity and Hinduism.
True, good point.
But your first insult is to call a religion supposedly sent from God an ideology. This, however, is bearable.
The problem is when during these discussions those against Islam get too emotional and indirectly insult Muslims.
You must be careful how you phrase things.
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sean jayasekara
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 31, 2004 - 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by dltq
I have not posted many comments on the whole Islam discussion here on the forums, mostly, because I find the whole topic very boring. The same old arguments are being run through the mill over and over.
Disagree.
This is one of few discussions on this subject where there has not been behaviour too aggresive, and where the stance from the anti-Islamists has been shown in a different light.
Debate is a good thing.
Extremism (whichever way) is not!
Now let us use our emotional energy on something else than trolls.
You have a point:
I believe if this people feel so strongly against what is happening in Muslim countries, debating Islam on the net cannot help the people in these countries. More energy should be put into these causes.
I looked at the RAWA website and found it very interesting.
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r g
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
February 2, 2004 - 01:02 AM
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Originally posted by sean23
My friend I think you'll find that both groups are responsible for getting over-emotional (including yourself). Which Muslim in these forums, though, has attacked your beliefs? I am interested to know!!
There is nothing in my beliefs (agnosticism) that any muslim could attack so they resort to character assassinations instead. Through name-callings and personal insults.
Peace.
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