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sean jayasekara
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What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 19, 2004 - 05:55 AM
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I wanted to write this in another thread, but it has now beeen closed
Ive beenreading many of the recent threads on Islam and all matters concerning it and am alarmed at some of the things that are going on:
Some threads are getting closed for what seems to be no reason, others with very good reason. Some of the discussions have gone very well and others have been pathetic and childish.
I noticed Haythems list which really was quite amusing and true, these people are all new to TIG and have come straight from FaithFreedom.com. However, I do think MMughal should be removed from that list as his arguments, unlike the others, are well presented and at least attepmt to be constructive. Mr Against Islam and Porky, I fail to see how you are allowed to participate in any TIG discussion with your offensive names, how about if I called myself Against USA or Mohammed Atta?? These people are using one source of translations from the Quran - thats it! Do the Arabs agree with me that you cannot get the full word of the Quran unless you read it in the Arabic it was written in? Think how many times the bible has been translated and wrongly at that!
FACT: LANGUAGE IS AMBIGUOUS, therefore translations will always be varied
Abdallah, you must really calm down, you cannot help yourself by making threats to people. When you are calm I have noticed, you can make good positive discussion as you, Luke and Yara were doing in one thread.
The question I ant to ask is why is there all this hate for each other? Why cant people tolerate others differences? I dont want the same "Islam preaches..." - think, and come up with some constructive replies!!
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SLOVENC
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 19, 2004 - 05:47 AM
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i just wanted to say that Koran is a problem in slovenia, as it has been translated into slovene only the muslims don't accept it so they don't recognie it here. and people here want that the muslims would read their holly book in slovene and not in another language, and that is probably also one of the reasons for the problems by building the mosque in Ljubljana!
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Yara Kassem
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 19, 2004 - 06:23 AM
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Dear Sean,
You really spoke my mind when you said about translations to Kor'an,Yes,sometimes transaltions abuse the original meaning of the sentences that's why some muslims who are not arabic speakers misunderstand some stuff in Kor'an,but that doesn't justifie the abusive way in which those members were talking about us,Islam,Jews,and our prophets and the way they've been attacking us on those discussions..and as I said that I even consider their nicknames a harrassement to me and my collegues..
It actually took me a long time just to control my temper and reply to them,it was really hard for me and as I said before it was totally unlike the TIG spirit I was used to see..And as I said the first time I read a discussion like that it caused a deep frustration and shock,and then I was seeing that kind of abuse daily for a whole month,and ofcourse you can imagine how it was affecting my emotionnal status in such a negative way...
I trully beleive that there's somethign that should be done with those people as I noticed that they don't discuss other stuff,they never work on anything thing but to build a destructive and ugly image of Islam and muslims...
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 20, 2004 - 02:54 AM
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Actually Sean, you speak the mind of so many on Tigers, not only muslims, but others too.
It seems that this is their Life Goal and, not astonishing, they increase day after day, and they ,more or less, use the same sources. It is amasing the number of posts that have been closed so far, I have been away only one day from TIG, and I was stunned by the number of replies to the discussions and the new threads which they have posted. Also, they have pretty enough time to post all of these discussions, tell me what do you think, should we keep on replying to them, or just ignore them since it is no use arguing with them? Why do not they spend their time learning Arabic for a better understanding of Islam since they seem to have so much free time?
Thank You So Much Sean for your post.
Yara... keep on your good work and information which you provide us with everyday on your update page.
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xyz
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 20, 2004 - 12:03 PM
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Dear Sean, Yarinos, injji and all other truth seekers,
I posted a reply but unfortuantely I did not know why it has beeen moved to another section that it does not belong, may be I clicked a wrong button. Anyway, I will post it here again.
Sean said in another post:
Why cant people tolerate others differences?
That is a fair question. I really believe in tolerating of others opinions, ideas, believes, life styles. That’s what makes life beautiful.
But what do you really mean by the above question?
Tolerating differences like what? Tolerating slavery? Tolerating forcing 9 year old kids to marry old men? Not allowing females to become judges? Beating them? Considering witness value of women as ½ of men? Separating men from women in university classes, hospitals, buses, … ? Witnessing stoning to death and amputations? Watching of flogging and executions on streets by our kids? Banning of music and dancing? Forcing to wear scarves and being flogged or acid thrown on our faces if men see our hair? Accepting the fact that life value of one human being (Moslem man) should be 4 times than another human being (Christian woman) and much more than a Hindu woman? Treating Non-Moslems as untouchables and classifying them as urine, …? etc, etc, etc
DO YOU WANT US TO TOLERATE THOSE?
See: http://www.imamreza.net/old/eng/lib...Cleanliness.htm
And who are we? Who are they? Those are the rules in OUR countries. Not Canada, not US,.. We and are families are subject to those rules in our countries, and they happened to be Islamic rules.
Why you can not respect us when we say we do not want to be treated like that? When we say those are wrong? When we say those are inhuman.
Even on this website, one of its member said ex-Muslims should be killed!!! BECAUSE PROPHET SAID SO! Is that the respect you and the moderator mean?
By tolerating I believe, you mean we should tolerate Islam, respect Islam and shut up and you are the ones who are allowed to speak, calling others as trolls, abusers, liars, harassers …
By respecting to others, it seems you mean we are allowed only to respect and not telling how we were and are treated. Surprisingly that’s all the answers we get. If you can not
answer what you call as accusations, lies, etc , you could at least ask a knowledgeable person to show up and answer the questions and provide us with the correct translations. Or may be all we can do is calling names, crying, denying, threatening to deaths, making ourselves busy by preparing lists, or recommending latest movies?!!
Is that all we can come up with?
Dear Yarinos,
I am really sorry for your feelings, but is there any other way? Why people who believe they are not treated well because of some misunderstandings of Quran as you claimed should not be allowed to speak up and protest?
You said you cried; let me know what the reaction of a little girl who is forced to marry an old man should be? What the reaction of a boy or girl who has been born in a Christian or Jewish family should be when he realizes that he is considered as an unbeliever and is treated as feces?!! If her or his classmates touch him, they should wash their hands?!! Does it make you sad as well? Isn’t it abusive? Isn’t it humiliating? Shouldn’t we say it’s wrong? Shouldn’t we inform people of what’s happening?
Again see: http://www.imamreza.net/old/eng/lib...Cleanliness.htm
In my first post I asked a few questions that I had in my mind, unfortunately I did not receive any response. May be that was because I did not provide enough sources. I also asked if the translations of the verses were wrong and if that’s the case how it should be translated. So I ask my questions again but this time with more sources. May be you could help me. By the way the translations that I give in this post are from not one but 3 well-known translators of Quran.
Dear Sean,
You claimed the translations were not true. Let me ask you how the following verses should be translated to answer the questions that will follow, this time I also included the translation from 3 translators and the address of the sites, you can check them out. All 3 translators know Arabic language very well and their translations are similar. But if you believe they are wrong let me know what the correct one is? And this time I also included some more documents from neutral, historical or medical websites to avoid being labeled as a liar.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/0...mt.html#002.178
002.178
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord.
After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. And for him who is forgiven somewhat by his (injured) brother, prosecution according to usage and payment unto him in kindness. This is an alleviation and a mercy from your Lord. He who transgresseth after this will have a painful doom.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain, the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female, but if any remission is made to any one by his (aggrieved) brother, then prosecution (for the bloodwit) should be made according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good manner; this is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the limit after this he shall have a painful chastisement.
.
1- Why in “Those Translations” human beings are classified as freemen, slaves and females? What is the correct translation?
2- Why messenger of God owned salves based on authentic hadithes? If you believe I am lying let me know so I will show you the links to the relevant authentic hadithes on Islamic sites; however you can easily search them for yourself.
3- If Islam decided to gradually abolish slavery by tolerating slavery, why it was practiced for 1400 years in the Islamic countries and was associated with several major riots of slaves that ended by killing slaves? Why it was not until 40 years ago that Saudi Arabia banned slavery after pressure from outside?
Based on Historical facts:
http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~fis...ngs/lewis1.html
“It was not until 1857 that Ottoman government under pressure of Britain banned slavery. After this order, people of Hejaz revolted under fatwa of chief of the ulema of Mecca Shaykh Jamal denouncing the ban on the slave trade as contrary to the holy law of Islam.This caused the Province of Hejaz to be exempted from the law. “
Lets look at the fatwa of Shaykh Jamal, chief of the ulema of Mecca at that time:
Quote:Shaykh Jamal issued a fatwa denouncing the ban on the slave trade as contrary to the holy law of Islam. Because of this anti-Islamic act, he said,together with such other anti-Islamic actions as allowing women to initiate divorce proceedings and to move around unveiled, the Turks had become apostates and heathens. It was lawful to kill them without incurring criminal penalties or bloodwit, and to Enslave Their Children.
From Travel guide.com:
“I t was not until 1962 that slavery was formally abolished in Saudi Arabia where Prophet Mohammad was born. “
http://www.travel-guide.com/data/sau/sau580.asp
Who is responsible for sufferings of all those who have been held as slaves for 1400 years, only because Islam decided to abolish it gradually?!
Islam did not abolish it rapidly but permitted suffering of slaves for 1400 years only because for a short period of time we could expect a few protests and financial crisis? Didn’t we face the same in USA? If President Lincoln ordered US citizens to treat their slaves fairly and voluntarily free them after beating them up but slave masters were allowed to go and capture more slaves, could slavery gradually abolished in USA?
How was the condition of slaves in Islamic courtiers?
Again let’s read some history:
http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~fis...ngs/lewis1.html
Q
uote:A Turkish letter of November 1849, sent by the reforming Grand Vezir Mustafa Reshid Pasha to the Ottoman governor of Tripoli, refers to the death by thirst of sixteen hundred black slaves, on their way from Bornu to Fezzan in southern Libya: "While our Holy Law permits slavery, it requires that slaves be treated with fatherly care, and hose who act in a contrary manner will be condemned by God." The governor was ordered to punish the guilty slavedealers and to ensure that such disasters did not recur. From British consular reports of the late nineteenth century, it is clear that this traffic, and the suffering it entailed,continued.
THE REVOLT OF AFRICAN SLAVES IN IRAQ
IN THE 3RD/9TH CENTURY
http://www.markuswiener.com/reviews/popovic.htm
Quote:The revolt of African slaves in Iraq from 869 to 883 C.E.-the revolt of the Zanj-was one of the great rebellions of world history and the first major uprising in the history of the African diaspora. The Zanj were black slaves shipped overseas from East Africa to work in salt mines and plantations under the harshest conditions. Their fate resembled trans-Atlantic slave trade, and their revolt triggered racism against blacks among Arabs.
You may also read this one:
: ZANZIBAR HISTORY
ARTICLE : TIMELINE 3 : SLAVES & IVORY
http://www.allaboutzanzibar.com/ind...1-34-slaves.htm
If you search you will find a lot more. Are all those historical data lies?
4- Could you please search and show me a verse or hadith that clearly condemns slavery? Or shows a timetable for its gradual abolishment?
5- Why in all countries with Islamic law or Shria (like SA, Former Taliban and Iran) the life value of a woman is ½ of life value of a man?
6- Why all of those who studied Islam for all of their lives reached to the same point? Why they claim that’s because it was said in Quran that life value of salves, men and women are not equal. If you do not agree with that what is the correct translation of the above verse?
It is believed that Muhammad married Ayasha when she was 9 years old and he was more than 50. If you say that’s a lie, please let me know
7- Do you believe Muslims should do the same at present and be jailed and diagnosed as pedophiles by psychiatrists?
http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/d...edophiliaTR.htm
Or it was OK for that time but not any more and we should not imitate his practice and what he did any more because it was OK for that time not now.
Is marrying little girls OK for their health? Are girls at 9 year mature enough mentally and physically to be married?
This is from UNISEF:
Quoteregnancy-related deaths are the leading cause of mortality for 15-19 year-old girls (married and unmarried) worldwide.Those under age 15 are five times as likely to die as women in their twenties.. The main causes are haemorrahage, sepsis, pre-eclampsia/eclampsia and obstructed labour. . .
.However, physical immaturity is the key risk for under 15s. High rates of Vesico-Vaginal Fistula (VVF) are clearly identified with marriage and childbearing in the 10-15 year-old age group; in one study in Niger, 88 per cent of women with fistula were in this age group at marriage. Mothers whose pelvis and birth canal are not fully developed often endure very prolonged labour. Unless the mother receives emergency obstetric care, relentless pressure from the baby’s skull can damage the birth canal, causing breakages in the wall, allowing uncontrollable leakage from the bladder into the vagina. The same problem may also occur in relation to the rectum, with leakage of faeces (recto-vaginal fistulas, or RVF) . . . .
source -- http://www.unicef-icdc.org/publicat...df/digest7e.pdf
According to UNICEF, no girl should become pregnant before the age of 18 because she is not yet physically ready to bear children.
See – http://www.commondreams.org/headlin...s01/0307-01.htm
Another one:
023.014
YUSUFALI: Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!
PICKTHAL: Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!
SHAKIR: Then We made the seed a clot, then We made the clot a lump of flesh, then We made (in) the lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, then We caused it to grow into another creation, so blessed be Allah, the best of the creators.
8- I would be very pleased if anybody could show me the mentioned sequence by showing a picture of an embryo that is a lump of bones and then the bones are covered with flesh. As far as I know, bones and flesh are made simultaneously not in a sequence.
9- What do you think about this verse from Quran?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/0...mt.html#086.006
086.005
YUSUFALI: Now let man but think from what he is created!
PICKTHAL: So let man consider from what he is created.
SHAKIR: So let man consider of what he is created:
086.006
YUSUFALI: He is created from a drop emitted-
PICKTHAL: He is created from a gushing fluid
SHAKIR: He is created of water pouring forth,
086.007
YUSUFALI: Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:
PICKTHAL: That issued from between the loins and ribs.
SHAKIR: Coming from between the back and the ribs.
10- Isn’t it that man is not created from semen? Because 50% is from the semen and 50% is from female. Why the female part is not mentioned?
11- Sperms are produced in testis, so why between ribs and backbone is mentioned? If it is because the blood supply are the same please refer me to the relevant anatomy. Which vessel? If it is because the embryologic origin is the same, please refer me to an embryology website or textbook that says testis and the area between ribs and backbone are in a special way more embryologically related. Because of the fact that all organs are made from one cell, would it be correct to say semen is made from the heart or the brain because their embryologic origin is the same? How it should be translated?
So tell me what is the correct translation?
These are my some of the questions. Are willing to help me to find the correct answers?
But again please do not answer me with only links to articles on other sites or copy and pasting of huge articles that are not yours. Let us discuss about it. That's just like questioning someone and he tells you read these tons of books that I did not read and don't ask me again!! And be happy because I answered you!!
And again why I believe those are not only valid questions but important as well, as I said before, If we do not discuss the moral ssues of old men marrying young girls, aren’t we responsible for the many girls who are forced to be married in Iran and SA who are just only 9 years old. Should we leave them alone? Is it not important?
For more than 20 years the minimum age of marriage in Iran for girls has been decreased to 9 year old and despite of a lot of protests it was not increased. If the wellbeing of Iranian little girls should be of none’s concern then I will be silent.
Didn’t you say “Take it global”?
Thank you
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sean jayasekara
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 21, 2004 - 09:57 AM
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1)
Quote:
"Why you can not respect us when we say we do not want to be treated like that? When we say those are wrong?"
I assume by this, you think that Im a Muslim. I am not a Muslim and although I believe in God, I do not follow any religion.
2)
Quote:
"By tolerating I believe, you mean we should tolerate Islam, respect Islam and shut up and you are the ones who are allowed to speak, calling others as trolls, abusers, liars, harassers … "
Again, I am not Muslim. When have I done any of the above? Is questioning the reliability of your sources the same as accusing you of lying?
Maybe you shouldnt get so hyped up and we can have these discussions in a more mature manner.
3)
Quote:
"If we do not discuss the moral ssues of old men marrying young girls, aren’t we responsible for the many girls who are forced to be married in Iran and SA who are just only 9 years old. Should we leave them alone? Is it not important?"
It is a very important issue and one which should be discussed.
I think it is deeply wrong to take a 9 year old wife.
I dont know any Muslims who have wives who are significantly younger than they are.
However, I do accept that in Muslim countries this happens, but it is not exclusive to Muslims as it happens in many parts of Asia and Africa, in fact both of my parents were born to 15 year old mothers.
If Prophet Muhammed did take a 9 year old wife, it doesnt mean other Muslims will automatically agree with this - many do not. However, you cant expect them to condemn their prophet either, it would be more likely to come up with reasons and explanations and say "It was ok then but is wrong nowadays" and move on - and to move on is the most important thing!
Those countries that permit such a behaviour need to be dealt with. However the West would only deal with such nations if they were threatening our economic stability, so if there is no economic implications, we can let it go on?? Is that not the thinking of Western leaders?
4)
Quote:
Separating men from women in university classes, hospitals, buses, … ? Witnessing stoning to death and amputations? Watching of flogging and executions on streets by our kids? Banning of music and dancing? Forcing to wear scarves and being flogged or acid thrown on our faces if men see our hair?
Though cosidered wrong in our society, are these measures not in place for a reason?
Can you not see their reasons?
We know the negativity in these measures, so lets look at the positives:
The separating of men from women -
(a)Generally speaking, it would be difficult to have sex outside of marriage - something which can be destructive to family life - as it would be difficult to meet members of the opposite sex;
(b)Kids might achieve better in schools is an argument which has been ongoing for a very long time, see this site:
www.nfer.ac.uk/research/downloads/AGM_Schagen.pdf
It used to be the case that (as boys mature later than girls), boys in the Uk would take their 11+ (an exam before secondary school) 2 years later than girls to rid the maturity gap. This process is no longer in place and boys' grades in the 11+ is substantially lower than girls.
(d)Banning of music and dancing is harsh but it reduces the possibilities of encountering sexual partners. It is common knowledge that most young people in nightclubs are on the prowl for sexual partners (whether for that night or the distant future). Music can have sexual implications and dancing can imitate sexual movements
(c)Many women in the UK will agree that in the UK it is men who are now discrimated against (as was told to me by a female solicitor), so how do you keepa balance??;
Witnessing stoning to death and amputations, Watching of flogging and executions on streets by our kids-
(a)It shows people the punishment for crimes and is probably the ultimate deterrent - Not many people I know are scared of prison!
(b)Maybe if non Muslim eastern countries adopted these practices, Western paedophiles would not visit and take advantage of impoverished children??;
Forcing women to wear a headscarf-
(a)This is something deeply traditional that women wear, though not all women wear it and only some women are forced to wear it
(b)If it is purely force, could you explain to me why so many women have been protesting about Mr Chirac's headscarf ban in France
(c)If this degrades women, what do you think of
- womens magazines which tell women everything they are doing is wrong, put them down and then say "buys next weeks edition to see how to get the perfect body"
- the attitude some western men have of having a one night stand with a woman with no care for feelings thereafter and if she gets pregnant "doesnt matter she can have an abortion"?
I dont necessarily agree with all of the above but they are all valid arguments nevertheless. Also, these points you made are only applicable to a few Muslim countries.
5)
Quote:
"Treating Non-Moslems as untouchables and classifying them as urine, …? "
I have never in my life experienced this and many times Muslims have backed me up against other Muslims.
In fact the only time I have felt like this has been from White people (in England and Holland) and Jewish people - should we attack everything these people represent?
Have you ever really felt what its like to be treated like urine? If you havent then Id say that you do not qualify to pass comment on it!
Extreme Muslims see believer/disbeliever, the KKK sees White/non White. I am neither White nor Muslim, yet I would support Muslim fanatics ahead of the KKK - I can change my religion, not my skin colour. Muslims are much more accepting to people of other skin colours than other religious groups - just look at the many different colour people that represent Islam!
My parents are Roman Catholic, all the statues in the church are of blonde haired, blue eyed people (as obviously, Israelis are!!!) and when the priest invited an African choir in, most people in the churh objected to it with claims such as "they scare the kids" and "theyre weird". Should we now attack Catholicism??
5) With regards to slavery, this still exists everywhere in the world today, in different ways. In Asia and Africa, many people keep servants (slaves). In Europe and North America, large multinationals induce sweatshop labour in torrid conditions for measley pay (slaves)
http://www.cleanclothes.org/companies.htm
It is an issue to be addressed globally, Muslims are not the only perpetrators.
Xyz, I would like to know your aim. Is it to burn every Quran that exists? Is it simply to prove to everyone that you and your cronies are right?
Do you want the world to be a better place? Do you think launching an all out attack on one of the largest religious groups in the world will achieve this?
I agree with you and the others that Islam has some bad points. But, it also has many good points. Which Muslim is going to listen to you if they feel all you are doing is attacking their beliefs?
From odd comments you have made, you seem like you are interested in a better world and reasonable discussion about it. Maybe we can have a reasonable discussion free from all the same tired Quranic quotes that you and your crew keep cutting and pasting - Ive seen them all too many times now!
I dont want anyone offended too much and I dont want this discussion closed, so maybe you (and anyone else) could co-operate with these requests
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xyz
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 22, 2004 - 09:16 AM
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Thank you very much Sean,
I really apologize if I was rude in my previous posts, that was because the thread that I started was moved without telling me of the cause and all that I was hearing was “be respectful to others” but what I saw was threatening to death. That made me really frustrated.
Again I apologize from open minded persons like you who can tolerate other ideas and let others speak.
YOU SAID:
1) I assume by this, you think that Im a Muslim. I am not a Muslim and although I believe in God, I do not follow any religion.
MY ANSWER
Same here! I am also not Muslim any more but I still believe in God
2)
Quote:
"By tolerating I believe, you mean we should tolerate Islam, respect Islam and shut up and you are the ones who are allowed to speak, calling others as trolls, abusers, liars, harassers … "
Again, I am not Muslim. When have I done any of the above? Is questioning the reliability of your sources the same as accusing you of lying?
Maybe you shouldnt get so hyped up and we can have these discussions in a more mature manner.
MY ANSWER
I meant people who did that. Not you! My post was a general one! So please nobody who called others abusers tell me I am a liar because did he did not call anybody a troll. But if you insist, do you want me to show you specifically who called trolls, abusers, liars, harassers? You can easily find that.
Please question the reliably of my sources, I will be more than happy to answer that and show you that they are in fact Islamic websites. Not mine or others who think like me. It is owned by Muslims. Would you?
Ok, I try my best to be more mature.
3)
Quote:
"If we do not discuss the moral ssues of old men marrying young girls, aren’t we responsible for the many girls who are forced to be married in Iran and SA who are just only 9 years old. Should we leave them alone? Is it not important?"
It is a very important issue and one which should be discussed.
I think it is deeply wrong to take a 9 year old wife.
I dont know any Muslims who have wives who are significantly younger than they are.
MY ANSWER
You do not live in Iran, in SA or Pakistan, do you? If you do not know, does it mean it does not happen?
I promise you will find a lot, read my other post about Khomeini’s opinion regarding having sex with breast feeding infants. It is not illegal in Iran. Shouldn’t we protest because someone could be insulted? Just search google for legal age of marriage in Iran.
YOU SIAD:
However, I do accept that in Muslim countries this happens, but it is not exclusive to Muslims as it happens in many parts of Asia and Africa, in fact both of my parents were born to 15 year old mothers.
MY ANSWER
15 is far more than 7!! or baby infants.
Are you saying: Oops, it happened in Africa, Oops it happened in Asia, Oops it happened in ..., so what’s wrong with it?!!!
YOU SAID:
If Prophet Muhammed did take a 9 year old wife, it doesnt mean other Muslims will automatically agree with this - many do not. However, you cant expect them to
MY ANSWER
It is believed Prophet Muhammad is the role model for all time and locations, if you do not believe in that, that’s perfect!
YOU SAID:l
condemn their prophet either, it would be more likely to come up with reasons and explanations and say "It was ok then but is wrong nowadays" and move on - and to move on is the most important thing!
MY ANSWER
Again that means he is not the role model for all times and locations and should not be imitated, you are telling what I say. That’s more than enough for me.
YOU SAID
Those countries that permit such a behaviour need to be dealt with. However the West would only deal with such nations if they were threatening our economic stability, so if there is no economic implications, we can let it go on?? Is that not the thinking of Western leaders?
MY ANSWER
I am not talking with western leaders or even westerners, I am talking with ordinary people in those countries.
YOU SAID:
4)
Quote:
Separating men from women in university classes, hospitals, buses, … ? Witnessing stoning to death and amputations? Watching of flogging and executions on streets by our kids? Banning of music and dancing? Forcing to wear scarves and being flogged or acid thrown on our faces if men see our hair?
Though cosidered wrong in our society, are these measures not in place for a reason?
Can you not see their reasons?
We know the negativity in these measures, so lets look at the positives:
The separating of men from women -
(a)Generally speaking, it would be difficult to have sex outside of marriage - something which can be destructive to family life - as it would be difficult to meet members of the opposite sex;
MY ANSWER
You mean we should put women in their husband’s houses so they can not meet opposite sex? Just what Taleban did?! And how successful it was? Can you tell me the divorce rate in Iran? so family values are preserved by separating men from women? And no job for 50% of population? You are kidding, aren’t you?
(b)Kids might achieve better in schools is an argument which has been ongoing for a very long time, see this site:
www.nfer.ac.uk/research/downloads/AGM_Schagen.pdf
It used to be the case that (as boys mature later than girls), boys in the Uk would take their 11+ (an exam before secondary school) 2 years later than girls to rid the maturity gap. This process is no longer in place and boys' grades in the 11+ is substantially lower than girls.
MY ANSWER
Thanks God. At last I saw something scientific in all of the replies!! Thank you very much Sean for that. Do you have any study for universities?
If it really helps and is proved by behavioral scientists, I will agree with that, but not because Quran said so, but because it is proved by static’s data. However it seems that research is not a good one becasue it is not supported by others and also it is possible that these differences could be explained by factors not included in the analysis. Ethnicity is particularly relevant here, as Asian families in particular often choose to send their daughters to single-sex schools.
(d)Banning of music and dancing is harsh but it reduces the possibilities of encountering sexual partners. It is common knowledge that most young people in nightclubs are on the prowl for sexual partners (whether for that night or the distant future). Music can have sexual implications and dancing can imitate sexual movements
MY ANSWER
Let be frank. Do you support it or it is harsh?
(c)Many women in the UK will agree that in the UK it is men who are now discrimated against (as was told to me by a female solicitor), so how do you keepa balance??;
MY ANSWER
So let women be discriminated to avoid possible male discrimination in future?
Witnessing stoning to death and amputations, Watching of flogging and executions on streets by our kids-
(a)It shows people the punishment for crimes and is probably the ultimate deterrent - Not many people I know are scared of prison!
MY ANSWER
Oh yes, and let’s amputate them. Let’s gays be stoned to death. Very amusing indeed. You can go and watch stoning to death and amputations of people over the Internet and have fun and pray in near future you can watch it live in London!!!
If you enjoy, please let me know, I will send you the links to watch with your famiy and your kids! If it is OK with our kids why it should not be OK with your kids?
And how much that harsh punishment was effectivel? We do not see any thieves in Iran anymore? Huh?!!!
(b)Maybe if non Muslim eastern countries adopted these practices, Western paedophiles would not visit and take advantage of impoverished children??;
MY ANSWER
Don’t worry. Pedophilia is OK in Islamic counties. Please read my other post.
You say pedophiles deserve to be amputated or stoned to death but when we say pedophilia is legal in Islamic Government of Iran and informed you of the facts, we showed no respect!!!! and is hateful!!! and the thread should be closed!!!
Amazing!!!
Forcing women to wear a headscarf-
(a)This is something deeply traditional that women wear, though not all women wear it and only some women are forced to wear it
(b)If it is purely force, could you explain to me why so many women have been protesting about Mr Chirac's headscarf ban in France
MY ANSWER
I am talking about Iran that was purely a force for me, my family and my friends. Do you ever have any feelings for those girls in Iran who do not like to be forced to wear headscarf? Or you have only sympathy for the French gals? At least, they are free to protest, what about in Iran?
The good thing with this Internet is people get a better idea of the stuation of other countries.
(c)If this degrades women, what do you think of
- womens magazines which tell women everything they are doing is wrong, put them down and then say "buys next weeks edition to see how to get the perfect body"
MY ANSWER
Explain more. What do you mean?
- the attitude some western men have of having a one night stand with a woman with no care for feelings thereafter and if she gets pregnant "doesnt matter she can have an abortion"?
MY ANSWER
Please stay on topic. If you need to talk about problems of western culture, start a new thread and we will discuss it there, let’s be focused. It is about Islam and whether it is right or not, not proving it is right because there are also some problems with other cultures. It's just like I say western culture is not bad because "look, there are a lot of problems with Islam". Stick to the topic please.
YOU SAID
I dont necessarily agree with all of the above but they are all valid arguments nevertheless.
MY ANSWER
Please tell me what you agree! If you do not agree with all of your sayings, please tell me what you agree, not what you might not agree, then we will discuss about what you agree to avoid wasting our times.
YOU SAID:
Also, these points you made are only applicable to a few Muslim countries.
MY ANSWER
Obviously yes, those with Islamic law or Sharia. we are not talking about secular governments. Are we?
All and all let me ask you one question frankly. Don't we have the right to say we do not like those Islamic laws that you are claiming are logical and beneficial? Don't we have the right to say we don't like them? and belive that they are wrong? How we can say that?
5)
Quote:
"Treating Non-Moslems as untouchables and classifying them as urine, …? "
I have never in my life experienced this and many times Muslims have backed me up against other Muslims.
MY ANSWER
Did you live in Iran to experience that? If you have not experience something, does it make you believe it does not happen?! Your personal experiences has nothing to do with our discussion. Have you read the link I provided about untouchables? Bring me your documents that it does not exist.
YOU SAID
In fact the only time I have felt like this has been from White people (in England and Holland) and Jewish people - should we attack everything these people represent?
Have you ever really felt what its like to be treated like urine? If you havent then Id say that you do not qualify to pass comment on it!
MY ANSWER
Let me know should people be raped at first to pass comment on it becasue only at that time they are qualified to condemn it?!!!!
Extreme Muslims see believer/disbeliever, the KKK sees White/non White. I am neither White nor Muslim, yet I would support Muslim fanatics ahead of the KKK - I can change my religion, not my skin colour. Muslims are much more accepting to people of other skin colours than other religious groups - just look at the many different colour people that represent Islam!
What a logic!!! Astonishing!!!
I like Islam because it is at least better than Nazism and Fascism. So you have a problem with others, that's why you belive Islam is the best!!!! If you are black, did you know that slavery is OK in Quran? Do you need a lot more verses? And for your information, you can have Muslim Slaves!!! and their children will be slaves as well. But the good thing in your opinion is even though most of them were blacks not all of them were blacks (very stress relieving!!!); some slaves were from Europe and Iran (the most expensive ones!!!). Read history please!
My parents are Roman Catholic, all the statues in the church are of blonde haired, blue eyed people (as obviously, Israelis are!!!) and when the priest invited an African choir in, most people in the churh objected to it with claims such as "they scare the kids" and "theyre weird". Should we now attack Catholicism??
MY ANSWER
If it is mentioned in Bible, by all means!!
BTW, discussing about personal experiences is something else than proving or disproving an ideology.
5) With regards to slavery, this still exists everywhere in the world today, in different ways. In Asia and Africa, many people keep servants (slaves). In Europe and North America, large multinationals induce sweatshop labour in torrid conditions for measley pay (slaves)
http://www.cleanclothes.org/companies.htm
It is an issue to be addressed globally, Muslims are not the only perpetrators.
MY ANSWER:
Again the same excuse. Oops, look, they did it, Oops,look, they did it as well. Oh my God, they are doing it. So why you are balming Islam? Everybody do it!!!!!
And those perpetrators were and are backed by an ideology. That’s my point.
You said:
Xyz, I would like to know your aim. Is it to burn every Quran that exists? Is it simply to prove to everyone that you and your cronies are right?
MY ANSWER
What’s the point to cover all lies and injustice? Did we not let you to defend? If it is right, why are you afraid of my questions? Answer them. They are all there, 12 of them, not even one of them is touched!!!
Again! and Again!! Look what's happening in my country. It is governed by Islamic rules and we believe it is harsh and inhuman. Do you want me to shut up becasue you were not treated properly by whites and think Islam is better than KKK?!!!
YOU SIAD:
Do you want the world to be a better place? Do you think launching an all out attack on one of the largest religious groups in the world will achieve this?
MY ANSWER
Yes, I want it to be a better place. If it makes the world a worse place then by all means. At least it will make people think twice, as I did.
I agree with you and the others that Islam has some bad points. But, it also has many good points.
MY ANSWER
Hitler’s book Mine Kampf also had many good points.
Which Muslim is going to listen to you if they feel all you are doing is attacking their beliefs?
MY ANSWER
Many!!! They are a lot more Ex-Muslims in theses days thanks to the Internet.
From odd comments you have made, you seem like you are interested in a better world and reasonable discussion about it. Maybe we can have a reasonable discussion free from all the same tired Quranic quotes that you and your crew keep cutting and pasting - Ive seen them all too many times now!
MY ANSWER
Astonishingly you say you've seen them too many times but I have not seen even one answer to them. Nobody showed up to let me know what is the correct translation and why I am wrong. Unfortunately you are not a Muslim to help me. May be I am wrong. I am still open to it. Prove it. That’s easy, but in a friendly way, and please be on topic not discussing about our personal experiences.
I dont want anyone offended too much and I dont want this discussion closed, so maybe you (and anyone else) could co-operate with these requests
MY ANSWER:
I do not also want it to be closed. I try to ask my questions meanwhile to be more polite.
Thank you very much for your time.
I AM STILL WAITING FOR ANSWERS TO MY 12 QUESTIONS! PLEASE! NOT EVEN ONE WAS DISCUSSED!
Please answer my 12 questions one by one with proofs and documents!
MY REQUEST:
If you can't answer the 12 questions, that's OK but please do not divert the whole discussion to your personal experiences, or calling names or excuses such as you do not have time or all of them are lies. If you believe the refrences and mentioned websites are lies, please prove it. Let mw know what is truth.
My 12 questions are not personal issues! Please read them!
I might not be able to respond to other topics not directly related to the above 12 questions such as how bad is other religions or cultures...
Stay on topic please.
Good luck and thank you
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Muslim brothers and sisters, please try to answer.
January 23, 2004 - 06:58 AM
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Is it not reasonable to be concerned?
Some reasons for questioning the Islamist agenda.
http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/alert/mufti.gif
http://mitglied.lycos.de/robert_groenewold/Hitler_Mufti_1.jpg
The following links to a site which has disturbing graphics on what happens in countries that profess to follow the ways of islamic sharia law.
There seems to be generally much silence on these problems from the global Muslim community, why?
Why do Muslims generally seem to protest the atrocities that are perpetrated by non-islamic entities, yet seem to remain silent about atrocities that are perpetrated by those countries of islamic persuasion?
Why do most of the countries of Islamic persuasion not embrace and agree to the UN Human-Rights Charter?
http://rawa.fancymarketing.net/gallery.html
--------------------------------------------------
More reasons for genuine concern.
Here is a post from a person on another forum.
Quote:
"Your first nightmare is that we are growing faster than you can count. Islam is the fastest growing major religion in the world. We will engulf you. We will swallow you. We are spreading like cloud. Very soon we, Muslims will rule the world. We will start from the US.
Abdul Kazi
Allah hu Akbar
_________________
Allah is great"
and.....
Quote:
"Muslims follows the teaching of Mohammad, work from inside, quitely. Islam taught us to take full advantage of enemy's weaknesses. Everythig is justified as long as Islam rules. That is why US will be first Western nation that will be converted to Islamic Republic of USA. Have you been in the Mosques recently. In Newark, New York, Detriot, Houston, Dallas, LA, Oklahoma City ? Visit Mosques sometime. You will feel the power of Islam in America.
We are winning in America.
No public figure can dare to say anything against Islam in public, that's include, George Bush. He has to say Islam is Peaceful.
Abdul Kazi
_________________
Allah is great"
----------------------------------------------
Why do Muslims protest the French government's proposed banning of Hijab in schools, yet seem to remain silent about the enforcement of Hijab in countries of islamic persuasion?
Answers please!
Regards.
Porky.
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 23, 2004 - 10:13 AM
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Firstly, I did not realize that you are from Iran and were an ex Muslim and therefore have first hand PERSONAL experiences of these things; therefore your view on these things will differ from mine or other Westerners, as it is hard to picture (could you send me those links to my messenger?).
- You tell me not to divert the questions towards my own personal experiences, but you didnt realise that you have reshaped this whole discussion based on your personal experiences in Iran! -
At the start of this thread did I say this discussion was to discuss Islam? It is about TOLERANCE. So if you can criticise Islam I can criticise other religions and cultures. There is a difference between criticism and outright intolerance.
So I think you should stop speaking in such a condescending manner!
Anyway,
I have read some of your other posts (but I cant access your links):
The post about Khomeni was disgusting, I saw a documentary on him and it (strangely) did not mention this and attempted to glorify him in some way.
Also, as I am ignorant on this, is Sharia Law different for Shi'ites than Sunnis?
In answer to your 12 questions - NO, these things should not be tolerated. In my previous email I was merely supplying an argument for these things other than verses in the Quran, to show that there are non Muslims also who find some of these actions tolerable, just as there are Muslims who do not tolerate these things!
Is it Islam that you think should not be tolerated or just some of the verses in the Quran?
With regards to Muhammed marrying a seven-year old, as appalling as it sounds, do you not think in the 8th century, people were physically worked at younger ages, having much lower life expectancies and therefore marriage at such an age was 'normal'?
We know that now this behaviour is unacceptable and cannot be condoned in any way and it must be stopped wherever present, so you are right.
Quote:
"Look what's happening in my country. It is governed by Islamic rules and we believe it is harsh and inhuman"
Yes, but is it because of Islam or because of corrupt leaders?
If it is Islam why do not all Muslim countries have the same problems?
If it solely Islam, why do not all Muslims think this way?
Also, quote:
"If it is mentioned in Bible, by all means!!"
Look here
http://www.str.org/free/studies/capipuni.htm
Quote:
"Nobody showed up to let me know what is the correct translation and why I am wrong. Unfortunately you are not a Muslim to help me"
Yes, Im not Muslim and I havent read the Quran, maybe someone more educated on this could step forward.
But, as I said before, language is ambiguous, one persons interpretation of something they have read, even if they understand the language perfectly, can be different from that of another person!
I hope to find enlightening responses...
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 24, 2004 - 02:52 AM
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Originally posted by sumbul236
following is the site related to hijaab plz read
i wonder porky why ru so much against hijab ??????????????????????????
Dear Sumbul236,
Thank you for replying, but I am still seeking answers to the questions that I have asked.
Some reasons for questioning the Islamist agenda. http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/alert/mufti.gif http://mitglied.lycos.de/robert_gro...ler_Mufti_1.jpg
The following links to a site which has disturbing graphics on what happens in countries that profess to follow the ways of islamic sharia law.
http://rawa.fancymarketing.net/gallery.html
Here are some pictures and links that where taken in countries that profess to be Islamic and accurate in thier interpretation of Islamic literature.
http://www.geocities.com/jinn1776/herbertgrack.html
http://www.faithfreedom.org/hang4.jpg
http://www.faithfreedom.org/handcut0.jpg
A Hindu being beaten by Muslims in a mosque in Bangladesh. He was captured outside the mosque while going home. After Friday prayers were over, the Muslims came out and grabbed the first Hindu they could. Mr. Vimal Patak a Bangladeshi born Hindu was beaten to death with sticks as the Muslim mullas (priests) chanted "kill the Kafir!" (non-muslim). With folded hands he begged for his life and died a brutal death. It clearly show the cruelty of Islam.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/BangaliHindu.jpg
And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with It and do not break your oath; (Q.38:44) Clarification.
Taliban's Moral Police beating an Afghan Woman in Kabul for not covering herself properly and showing her hand in public!
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/beatingwomen.jpg
As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Q. 4:34
An Iranian woman beaten by Islamic Regime of Iran.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/beaten.jpg
"And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah" Q.2:193
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/shahed.jpg
My questions:
*There seems to be generally much silence on these problems from the global Muslim community, why?
*Why do Muslims generally seem to protest the atrocities that are perpetrated by non-islamic entities, yet seem to remain silent about atrocities that are perpetrated by those countries of islamic persuasion?
*Why do most of the countries of Islamic persuasion not embrace and agree to the UN Human-Rights Charter?
*Why do Muslims protest the French government's proposed banning of Hijab in schools, yet seem to remain silent about the enforcement of Hijab in countries of islamic persuasion?
* Any comment about this post by a person on the other forum?
Quote:
"Your first nightmare is that we are growing faster than you can count. Islam is the fastest growing major religion in the world. We will engulf you. We will swallow you. We are spreading like cloud. Very soon we, Muslims will rule the world. We will start from the US.
Abdul Kazi
Allah hu Akbar
_________________
Allah is great"
and.....
Quote:
"Muslims follows the teaching of Mohammad, work from inside, quitely. Islam taught us to take full advantage of enemy's weaknesses. Everythig is justified as long as Islam rules. That is why US will be first Western nation that will be converted to Islamic Republic of USA. Have you been in the Mosques recently. In Newark, New York, Detriot, Houston, Dallas, LA, Oklahoma City ? Visit Mosques sometime. You will feel the power of Islam in America.
We are winning in America.
No public figure can dare to say anything against Islam in public, that's include, George Bush. He has to say Islam is Peaceful.
Abdul Kazi
_________________
Allah is great"
---------------------------------
Answers please.
Btw, from:
http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/sbk/
Sahih al Bukhari
ßÊÇÈ ÇáæÖæÁ (The Book of Ablution)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No. 149 - Narrated 'Aisha:
The wives of the Prophet used to go to Al-Manasi, a vast open place (near Baqia at Medina) to answer the call of nature at night. 'Umar used to say to the Prophet "Let your wives be veiled," but Allah's Apostle did not do so. One night Sauda bint Zam'a the wife of the Prophet went out at 'Isha' time and she was a tall lady. 'Umar addressed her and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda." He said so, as he desired eagerly that the verses of Al-Hijab (the observing of veils by the Muslim women) may be revealed. So Allah revealed the verses of "Al-Hijab" (A complete body cover excluding the eyes).
----------------------------------------------------
The interesting point is that Umar invented the "revelation" then went about proving its worth to Mohammed even after Mohammed rejected the notion, by sneaking around in the dark to prove that he could recognize Mohammed's wife.
Then Mohammed "knee-jerk" reacts and then the revelation miraculously comes down from Allah, but it was Umar's proposal in the first instance.
Allah gets his ideas from Umar?
Umar comes up with the idea first, then convinces Mohammed, and only after it may PERSONALLY affect Mohammed, then Allah conveniently decides that it is a good idea, a "revelation" for all women forever.
Dear Sumbul236,
This is part of the reason I am interested in the issue of Hijab.
Aside from Hijab, please answer my questions.
Regards.
Porky.
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View of an Apostate of Islam
January 24, 2004 - 03:13 AM
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Quote:
This Topic was one of the first eye-openers for me during my last days as a muslim before I decided to finally leave the cult...despite how obviously Illogical this concept is, I always (along with many other muslims who come across such verses and ideas) to "burry" it deep inside me, trying desperately to convince myself that I just "don't understand"...
Its certainly hard for anyone who studies the Quran not to look and ponder on many verses that handle the subject of Allah's interference with his creatures' Will in choosing between Believing and Disbelieving..in here I shall present some Verses and, if needed, the Tafsir of them from reliable sources , then my own commentary on them..
Lets start by this verse
Al-Araaf 2:187
مَنْ يَهْدِ اللَّهُ فَهُوَ الْمُهْتَدِي وَمَنْ يُضْلِلْ فَأُولَئِكَ هُمُ الْخَاسِرُون
"Whomsoever Allah guides, he is the one who follows the right way; and whomsoever He causes to err, these are the losers."
Interesting, we find here a clear announcement "from the Horse's mouth" that Guidence and Misguidence Comes from HIM..He IS the Source.
*******
Further, we read the Following in Surat al Bakarah, second surah in the quran:
First, Allah Suggests the Following:
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ سَوَآءٌ عَلَيْهِمْ ءَأَنذَرْتَهُمْ أَمْ لَمْ تُنذِرْهُمْ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ
( Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.) (2:6)
Intersting, Why,you ask? here is the answer from Allah in the next verse:
خَتَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَى قُلُوبِهِمْ وَعَلَى سَمْعِهِمْ وَعَلَى أَبْصَـرِهِمْ غِشَـوَةٌ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عظِيمٌ
( Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment).(2:
So, in short, Allah suggests the following:
"Do not bother with 'those' kuffar, whatever you say to them they will never believe, for a simple reason; I, Allah, has set a seal on their hearts , ears and eyes to prevent them from beeing guided to the true religion, and as a punishment for their misguidence (that was caused by me), I'm going to toture them in jahannam" -Allah.
Although not much needed, the Tafsir of the Above gem is the following:
Quote:
" the Messenger of Allah was eager for all the people to believe and follow the guidance he was sent with. Allah informed him that none would believe except for those whom He decreed happiness for in the first place, and none would stray except those who Allah has decreed to do so in the first place."
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=869
*******
When we flip down a little to verse 10 of the same Surah we read:
فِي قُلُوبِهِم مَّرَضٌ فَزَادَهُمُ اللّهُ مَرَضاً وَلَهُم عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ بِمَا كَانُوا يَكْذِبُونَ
"There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their disease and they shall have a painful chastisement because they Lie"
So the disbelievers have "disease in their hearts, so what would allah do? help them to see the light? ofcourse not! he increases and add to their "disease" ! such a merciful god!!
*******
Another verse, same concept, Allah is angry..yelling at Mo "are you stupid? trying to guide to islam someone who I have decided he will be a kafir? don't you know that it ain't gonna work? "
the verse: (4:8
فَمَا لَكُمْ فِي الْمُنَافِقِينَ فِئَتَيْنِ وَاللَّهُ أَرْكَسَهُمْ بِمَا كَسَبُوا أَتُرِيدُونَ أَنْ تَهْدُوا مَنْ أَضَلَّ اللَّهُ وَمَنْ يُضْلِلِ اللَّهُ فَلَنْ تَجِدَ لَهُ سَبِيلًا
What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? [bDo you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.
[/b]
*******
It gets even worse:
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ حَقَّتْ عَلَيْهِمْ كَلِمَةُ رَبِّكَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ - وَلَوْ جَآءَتْهُمْ كُلُّ ءايَةٍ حَتَّى يَرَوُاْ الْعَذَابَ الاٌّلِيمَ
(Truly, those against whom the Word (wrath) of your Lord has been justified, will not believe. Even if every sign should come to them, until they see the painful torment) (10:96-97).
Same Idea, no explaination needed..
*******
same:
[مَن يُضْلِلِ اللَّهُ فَلاَ هَادِيَ لَهُ]
(Whomsoever Allah sends astray, none can guide him) (7:186),
and,
مَن يَهْدِ اللَّهُ فَهُوَ الْمُهْتَدِ وَمَن يُضْلِلْ فَلَن تَجِدَ لَهُ وَلِيًّا مُّرْشِدًا
(He whom Allah guides, he is the rightly guided; but he whom He sends astray, for him you will find no Wali (guiding friend) to lead him (to the right path)) (18:17).
and,
إِنَّكَ لاَ تَهْدِى مَنْ أَحْبَبْتَ و لكن الله يهدي من يشاء
(Verily, you (Muhammad ) guide not whom you like But Allah is He who Guides Whom he likes) (28:56),
*****
وَالَّذِينَ كَذَّبُوا بِآيَاتِنَا صُمٌّ وَبُكْمٌ فِي الظُّلُمَاتِ مَنْ يَشَأِ اللَّهُ يُضْلِلْهُ وَمَنْ يَشَأْ يَجْعَلْهُ عَلَى صِرَاطٍ مُسْتَقِيمٍ
And they who reject Our communications are deaf and dumb, in utter darkness; whom Allah pleases He causes to err and whom He pleases He puts on the right way. (6:39)
*****
وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِ قُلْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُضِلُّ مَنْ يَشَاءُ وَيَهْدِي إِلَيْهِ مَنْ أَنَابَ
And those who disbelieve say: Why is not a sign sent down upon him by his Lord? Say: [uSurely Allah makes him who will go astray, [/u]and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).
*****
أَفَمَنْ زُيِّنَ لَهُ سُوءُ عَمَلِهِ فَرَآهُ حَسَنًا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ يُضِلُّ مَنْ يَشَاءُ وَيَهْدِي مَنْ يَشَاءُ فَلَا تَذْهَبْ نَفْسُكَ عَلَيْهِمْ حَسَرَاتٍ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ بِمَا يَصْنَعُونَ
What! is he whose evil deed is made fairseeming to him so much so that he considers it good? Now surely Allah makes err whom He pleases and guides aright whom He pleases, so let not your soul waste away in grief for them; surely Allah is Cognizant of what they do (35:
And many, many other verses, all goes around the bizarre concept of "Allah Guides whome he wishes and misguides whome he wishes"..
There is also a famous hadith, that muslims parrot it allot as a Dua , without bothering to ponder on its message:
يَا مُقَلِبَ الْقُلُوبِ ثَبِّتْ قُلُوبَنَا عَلى دِينِك
(O You Who changes the hearts, make our hearts firm on Your religion.)
..From all the above, it is clear that Guidence and misguidence is something that Allah not only knows of in advance, but Also he is the one who CAUSES it, and the Human Will is totally under control of Allah's wishes , and yet Allah is going to Punish those people for their Non Believing that HE is who caused it..
I ,for example...I was a happy muslim but suddenly for no explainable reason, Allah decides to make me a kafir..here is the story of my life:
1- Allah creates me a muslim from 2 muslim parents.
2- Allah knows in advance, even before my birth, that I'm going to leave islam to kufr.
3- Allah MAKES ME leave islam (see above verses). Allah sets a seal on my heart, eyes, and ears so I could not see the truthfulness of islam..He prevents me From Beeing Guided to the truth.
4- Allah not only Made me to leave islam, but he sinks me deeper and deeper in my kufr (2:10)
5-Allah punishes me with eternal punishment in hell for my kufr..my kufr that he is the one who "installed" within me!
Why should I be questioned then for leaving islam if it was all Allah's Doing unto me?
I wonder..Did Not the Author of the Quran get a tiny grasp of something called "LOGIC" ?
EDIT: for further read on the issue of Allah's OMNISCIENCE Go to:
http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/limitedallah.html
-----------------------------------------------------
Comments please.
regards.
Porky.
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 24, 2004 - 12:52 PM
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following is the site related to hijaab plz read
i wonder porky why ru so much against hijab ??????????????????????????
http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=6237
and here is the conent of the above link in case it donot work
Name Abdul - Bangladesh
Topic Ethics & Values
Title Rulings of Hijab
Question I would like to fully understand the ruling regarding sisters’ wearing hijab and niqab. I understand the Qur’an talks about the veil, but isn’t specific. I would appreciate it if you would make it clear for me.
Date 2004/1/8
Name of Consultant AAI Editorial Staff
Content of Reply
This answer was kindly provided by Sister `Ola As-Sayed, a member of Ask About Islam Editorial Staff.
Salam Abdul Aziz,
Thank you, dear brother in Islam, for your question which reflects curiosity to know the teachings of Islam. It is really the duty of every Muslim, male and female, to pursue religious knowledge. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, ordered us to seek knowledge, even if we have to go in this course as far as to China, for seeking knowledge is an obligation on every Muslim, male and female.
Coming to the point of your question, I'd like to highlight that hijab is the Muslim woman's proper dress, which Allah Almighty has ordered her to wear when he said what means:
*{And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.}* (An-Nur 24:31)
This verse shows clearly that Allah has obliged women to wear hijab. But what is exactly meant by hijab?
Hijab is the proper Islamic dress code, which is primarily intended to safeguard the modesty, dignity and honor of men and women. By wearing Hijab, women protect themselves from any lustful gaze or act that may expose them to temptation or harassment of any kind. On the other hand, it protects men from indulgence in vices and unlawful acts.
Hijab does not only refer to head cover, but to the whole dressing of a woman. This means that there are certain requirements for a woman's dress to be Islamic:
• It must cover the whole body.
• It must not be tight or transparent.
• It must not delineate the parts of the body, especially those parts that are sexually attractive.
• It must not be a dress that is usually worn by men.
Hence, a Muslim woman is permitted to wear whatever she likes as long as her dress has all the legal requirements of a woman's Islamic dress code, and it covers the `awrah (sensitive parts of the body that a woman must cover in front of non-mahrams). This is agreed upon by all scholars and jurists.
However, scholars differ concerning the limits of a woman's `awrah, depending on different interpretations of the verse that is mentioned above, and this entails a disagreement among scholars concerning the ruling of niqab (covering the face and hands); whether it is obligatory or not. The majority of Muslim scholars, including the four schools of fiqh, maintain that niqab is not obligatory. They base their view on many evidence that are discussed below in details. Only some of the Hanbali scholars see that niqab is obligatory.
Here, I'd like to cite for you the different opinions as explained by Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and an Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, who states:
“Allah Almighty says what means:
*{And say to the believing women to lower their gazes and guard their chastity, and let them not display of their charm - except what is apparent.}* (An-Nur 24:31)
Commenting on the phrase: *{what is apparent}* Ibn `Abbas, the famous Companion and the Qur’an exegete, said: “It means face and hands.” In other words, according to Ibn `Abbas, a woman must cover all her body except her face and hands while in the presence of men who are not related to her directly. The list of those in whose presence she needs not cover is clearly outlined in Surat An-Nur 24: 31.
The majority of imams - including those of the four schools, as well as others - share the above interpretation of Ibn `Abbas, and thus hold the opinion that a woman is not obliged to cover her face and hands.
However, a group of scholars, the majority of whom belong to the Hanbalite Juristic School, teach that a woman must cover her face and hands as well. In support of their position they invoke a tradition attributed to the Prophet, peace and blessings be on him, stating: “Woman is all `awrah”, and hence as such, needs to completely be covered up. They also reason by saying that the most attractive parts of a woman’s body capable of enticing men are her face and hands.
The aforementioned position of the majority on this issue seems to be more consistent with the general understanding and evidences of the Qur’an and Sunnah than of those who advocate covering the face and hands as well. There are several proofs which point to this conclusion:
Firstly, the verse quoted above from the Qur’an seems to presume that the women it addresses are not wholly covered, i.e. face and hands. Otherwise, there is no sense in ordering both genders to lower their gazes.
Secondly, it is a general consensus among scholars that a woman is not required to cover her face and hands while performing salah (ritual prayers). If these were deemed to be `awrah, it would certainly have been necessary to cover them.
Thirdly, a woman is required to bare her face while she is in a state of ihram (consecration during Hajj and `Umrah). This again confirms what we said earlier.
Moreover, the evidences in the sources – the Qur’an and the Sunnah - are overwhelming in showing that the hijab, as prescribed by Islam, was not meant to segregate women or shut them out of the social involvement and participation in the affairs of the Muslim community. This is since the participation of Muslim women - at all levels of Islamic life - is fully documented beyond a shadow of doubt in the sources of Shari`ah. Such active participation as described in the sources is conceivable only if we assume that women were not wholly covered from head to toe.
In light of the above, we conclude: a Muslim woman is required to cover all her body except her face and hands, according to the majority of scholars belonging to all schools. Covering the head, however, is not at all a disputed issue among them - they all agree that this is a necessary part of hijab.”
From Sheikh Kutty'swords, we derive that there is no controversy regarding covering the whole body except for the face and hands. The controversy occurs in respect of covering the face and hands. The majority of scholars say it is not obligatory, while few others maintain it is obligatory. This, in turn, requires that a woman must abide by the agreed ruling which stipulates that a woman must cover her whole body except the face and hands.
As for the controversial part of the issue, we should think of it as a sign of Allah's mercy that He left some things open, so that there will be no hardship for people, and that they can make use of such things according to their own benefit. For example, if a woman is so beautiful to the extent that she attracts men's attention and her beauty tempts them, she would cover her face, as an aspect of preventing harm, even if it is agreed that niqab is not obligatory. On the other hand, some women may have some breathing or skin problems that they do not tolerate wearing face cover. Here, we realize that the difference of opinion in relation to niqab is really an aspect of Allah's mercy.
Finally, I'd like to stress that differences among scholars are only in minor and secondary things, and never in the fundamentals of faith. This is in fact an aspect of God’s mercy, as the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him said:
“Allah has prescribed certain obligations for you, so do not neglect them; He has defined certain limits, so do not transgress them; He has prohibited certain things, so do not do them; and He has kept silent concerning other things, out of mercy for you and not because of forgetfulness, so do not ask questions concerning them.” (Reported by ad-Darqutni.)
Dear brother, if you have further inquiries, do not hesitate to write back. May Allah guide you and us all to that which pleases him. Ameen!
Thank you and please keep in touch.
Salam.
Useful Links:
Is Hijab a Qur’anic Commandment?
The Hijab… Why??
Must Muslim Women Wear the Hijab?
Hijab, Why?
Hijab: Always A Woman’s Business?
Does Hijab Infringe upon Women’s Liberty?
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January 26, 2004 - 12:07 PM
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The Logic of Allah's Existence
I've debated many Muslims on the net (in chats, via email, on usenet), and I've also debated with a few Muslims in person (at my local university, at the work place). One thing that the real time Muslims ask that the cyber-Muslims rarely do is why I'm an Atheist, which is often followed by "why not Islam?" They can understand how an educated Westerner would reject Christianity, but why reject Islam? Especially when you're already familiar with its tenets. Here I will give a quick run through the reasons I don't believe in the existence of Allah. Surely, if Allah does not exist, then all other claims of Islam fall with Him. I will explore some of His alleged attributes, the attempted arguments for His alleged existence, and what life without Allah means (if anything). These are the reasons why I chose Ilhad (Atheism) rather than Islam.
ALLAH AND OMNISCIENCE
One of the definitions that Muslims, I assume, would agree to for Allah, is that of a being who is, among other things, infinite in knowledge. Allah knows all things, even what your heart conceals. This makes sense for a being that is unlimited; such a being should know all things at all times. With this I would like to explore this idea, and begin with an attempt to apply the popular "free will" argument to this concept.
Suppose it is the time just prior to the creation of the earth. For the sake of a rough estimate to just throw out there, we'll say this is six billion years ago. At this point, does Allah know what sins Bob Smith of Chicago Illinois is going to commit in July of 2001? If the scope of what Allah can see, and what Allah knows is unlimited, then surely He knows what Bob is going to do, and knew such things six billion years before old Bob was even born! That being established, suppose that before the first human is even created, the following HYPOTHETICAL discussion takes place between God and one of his angels:
ANGEL: Oh Allah, the most benevolent, ever-merciful, will your servant Bob Smith ever commit a sin?
ALLAH: Yes he will.
ANGEL: Ya Allah, could you please name one sin he will commit?
ALLAH: Bob will consume eight ounces of khamr on July 4th, 2001.
Now, if Allah knew what Bob was going to do before he was even born, how could Bob do anything else? If Bob decided to instead heed the Islamic prohibition on liquor, then that would make Allah a liar six billion years prior, which is impossible. However, if Allah knows everything Bob is going to do, then it it is as if he is pre-programmed, and the events of Bob's life are obviously predetermined. If Bob's life if predetermined, he cannot be considered guilty of any "sin" he "commits."
This sort of concept begins to hi-light the illogical notion of Allah's omniscience with regards to His creation. Rather than focusing on one being, let us consider his entire creation. At what point is an action the will of Allah, and at what point is an action the result of an independent decision on the part of one of His creations? Do these two things overlap? At the very creation of the universe, Allah must have instantly known everything that was going to happen, from this moment, all the way to judgment day, and every day in paradise, with his servants and their seventy virgins relaxing by a river of khamr. That means that Allah already knew who was going to believe, and who was not, how many would go to hell, how many would go to heaven, which prophets would be killed, et cetera. The entire history of life, past, present, and future, was predetermined. All these events have already happened in the mind of Allah, thus every being is simply going through the motions. There is no way you can truly change your life, as everything you will ever do, was already "written." You have no real choices, as there is only one possibility for you considering that it was already known what you were going to do before you or your ancestors were even created. Thus, it would seem that free will and an eternally omniscient Allah are wholly incompatible and incoherent.
On a similar track, the very idea of prayer comes off as totally absurd in light of Allah's alleged omniscience. What are you praying for? If a farmer in Afghanistan prays for rain, he is wasting his time. Billions of years before that man was even born Allah already decided whether or not it would rain that day. Allah knew exactly when every single event would and would not happen, thus to pray for something seems a bit pointless. A prayer for change is worthless, as all things are predetermined if Allah is omniscient. Thus, one would have to conclude that prayers are not for asking for change, but rather meant only to praise Allah. It seems unbecoming of an infinite being, watching over an infinite universe, to order that men praise him five times a day (bargained down from fifty after Muhammad and Moses questioned Allah's original orders according to certain ahadith). Furthermore, due to Allah's omniscience, Allah already knew from the very start who would praise Him, when, and how many times. He knew the exact amount of prayers He would receive over the course of history, thus the idea of prayer being only a method of praising Allah is a bit unspectacular. The idea of prayer being a source of psychological benefit is also absurd, as it was already predetermined who would go crazy and who would benefit psychologically.
Another problem with Allah's alleged omniscience is that it cancels out His attribute of being omnipotent. It is totally illogical to claim that a being is both all-knowing and all-powerful. If Allah, six billion years ago, knew everything that would happen after that point, for the rest of eternity, then He would be limiting Himself. Does Allah know every decision and action He will make after that point? If so, he cannot do otherwise. As George Smith put it, "If God knows the future with infallible certainty, he cannot change it-in which case he cannot be omnipotent. If God can change the future, however, he cannot have infallible knowledge of it prior to its actual happening-in which case he cannot be omniscient." [Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God, (1989, Prometheus) p. 74]
To make it more clear, consider the following sequence of statements:
(1) Allah is omniscient, i.e. He knows all things.
(2) Allah is omnipotent, i.e. He can do all things.
(3) Allah knows everything that He will ever do after this point [from (1)].
(4) Allah can do anything He pleases, at anytime He pleases [from (2)].
(5) Allah can change His mind about what he planned to do [from (2) & (4)].
(6) If Allah can change His mind, and do something different from what he originally planned to do, then He did not originally know what He was going to do.
If Allah knows everything that will happen, then He cannot change it. If it is open to change, then He does not know everything that will happen. For example, if Allah, six billion years ago, told His angels that "on December 31, 2001 I will make it snow in Montreal, Canada," He, from that point, is locked to that event, and is no longer free. If on December 31 2001 it does not snow in Montreal, then Allah either lied (which surely Allah does not do), or He did not really know what was going to happen. However, if Allah knows that He will make it snow on 12/31/2001 six billion years before He does so, but decides on December 23rd not to make it snow, then He really didn't know what was going to happen, as He made an incorrect prediction six billion years prior.
With the concept of omnipotence and omniscience, Allah is continually contradicting Himself, and continually locking Himself to an event. Either he knows what He is going to do, and cannot change it, or He is not so sure what will happen, and is free to make any decision. The only way to escape this contradiction is to admit that Allah is either not omnipotent, or not omniscient. If the Muslim wants to present a logical deity, then he must admit that this deity, Allah, is a limited being due to the fact that one of the aforementioned unlimited attributes must be discarded.
ALLAH AND OMNIPOTENCE
If Allah is omnipotent, then He can do anything, and He can create anything. As was just shown, the concept of omnipotence contradicts the concept of omniscience, thus for Allah to be truly omnipotent, He would have to be limited in knowledge (as odd as that may sound). If this is in fact the case, then that would in itself negate Allah's omnipotence, as there would already be one thing Allah could not do: make Himself omniscient!
The contradiction of omnipotence and omniscience aside, there are other seemingly irreconcilable problems with the concept of an all-powerful deity. What can Allah create? If He is omnipotent, then He can create everything and anything. This is where questions that theists hate comes in. Can Allah create a four-sided triangle? Some theists, including Muslims, have argued that this is an unfair question, as we are asking Allah to create something in a way that is totally opposite to its definition. Regardless, this shows how human beings can limit what Allah can do by way of our own definitions. It is my opinion that "Allah," or "God" is an ambiguous sound that was created by human language, and because of this He/She/It can be limited through human language.
Regardless, Christian and Muslim theologians/philosophers (from Saint Aquinas to Ibn Sina) have tried to escape such questions by arguing that God can only do what is possible, and not do what is impossible. This has been an attempt to salvage the concept of God/Allah's omnipotence, but it instead admits that He is limited in power. There are things that are even impossible for Allah, hence Allah's powers are limited, thus Allah is a limited being. Then, to take a page from theist arguments, one might ask "who put those limitations on Allah?" I think from here one could understand that limitations are simply given and defined by the eternal laws of the mathematics, the universe, nature, et cetera, and there is no reason to assume limitations and rules must have a source. Thus cosmological and design arguments become worthless, but that's an entirely different conversation.
In July of 2000, physicists, ended a conference on superstring theory at the University of Michigan with a session called "Millennium Madness," choosing 10 of the most perplexing problems in their field. On August 15th, the New York Times ran an article titled "10 Questions to Ponder for a Millennium or Two," which covered this conference, and one of the questions was as follows:
"Are all the (measurable) dimensionless parameters that characterize the physical universe calculable in principle or are some merely determined by historical or quantum mechanical accident and uncalculable?"
Einstein put it more crisply: did God have a choice in creating the universe? Imagine Allah sitting at His control console, preparing to set off the Big Bang. "How fast should I set the speed of light?" "How much charge should I give this little speck called an electron?" "What value should I give to Planck's constant, the parameter that determines the size of the tiny packets -- the quanta -- in which energy shall be parceled?" Was He randomly dashing off numbers to meet a deadline? Or do the values have to be what they are because of a deep, hidden logic? These kinds of questions come to a point with a conundrum involving a mysterious number called alpha. If you square the charge of the electron and then divide it by the speed of light times Planck's constant, all the dimensions (mass, time and distance) cancel out, yielding a so-called "pure number" -- alpha, which is just slightly over 1/137. But why is it not precisely 1/137 or some other value entirely? Physicists and even mystics have tried in vain to explain why.
This relates to Allah's alleged omnipotence because one wonders if the laws of the universe are created, or simply given. Can the allegedly omnipotent Allah control and manipulate the laws of physics, mathematics, et cetera? My favorite example has always been that of the two stones. If a person has one stone, and then adds a second stone to his collection, he will have two stones. No more, no less. This is because in the physical world, 1+1=2. Could Allah escape this fact? Or is even He subject to the laws of mathematics? If Allah had one stone, and added another stone, is there any way He could end up with more or less than two stones? Could He do so without cheating (i.e. creating new stones, breaking the stones, making stones disappear, et cetera)?
In short, Allah, or any being that we assume exists, would have to be subject to the laws of the universe. Allah cannot create four-sided triangles; He cannot alter the rules of mathematics. These laws cannot be changed because they are not created. They are simply given facts. The laws of the universe do not require some sort of law giver, and the very nature of these laws help to totally discredit the concept of omnipotence.
ALLAH AND INFINITY
Is Allah an infinite being? What does this mean in light of the claims of other religions with regards to anthropomorphism? The great Pantheist/Buddhist thinker Brett Neichin was once asked by a Christian if he believed Jesus was God. Neichin, who was not, and to this day is not a Christian, replied that he indeed felt Jesus was God, but he also felt that the Christian asking the question was God, that he himself was God, that the chairs and table were God (not Gods), et cetera. Muslims might consider the opinion of some Mushrik Pantheist/Buddhist named Brett Neichin to be pointless, but it does relate. As Neichin himself once put it, "when you point to something that isn't God, you've just limited God."
If Allah and His creation are totally separate, one would wonder where Allah ends and His creation begins. A truly unlimited being would have to be all encompassing, and everywhere. If Isa ibn Maryam was not Allah, then Allah was/is limited. If the current Agha Khan is not Allah incarnate, then Allah is limited. We have found a spot where divinity is not present: it is in the flesh of the current Agha Khan (the great spiritual leader of the anthropomorphist Isma'ili sect of Islam). If Allah is at point X, and the body of the Agha Khan is at point Y, then Allah is limited. It is that simple.
The few Muslims who I have pushed this point to would then argue that, if this is true, it also means that Fard Muhammad was Allah (which means the NOI was right after all!), that drugs are part of Allah, that excrement is part of Allah, that pigs are part of Allah, that poisonous plants are part of Allah, et cetera. To them this seems wholly absurd and unthinkable. One Muslim might ask "so you really think Fard Muhammad was God?" The answer is no. I don't believe Allah exists. However, if we are going to claim the existence of an unlimited being, we must be consistent. If the being is at one point, and not another, he/she/it is limited. To be truly unlimited, the being must be in all things, and be all things.
The concept of Allah being unlimited is also weakened by certain aspects of the Islamic literature (particularly certain ahadith). In sura al-A'raf, we have Moses speaking with Allah up on a mountain (Sinai?). Why is it that Moses would have to go to a certain spot to meet Allah? Is Allah limited, and at a given spot? That is a moot point, but a stronger point is the idea that the believers will be able to see Allah after judgment day. If Allah can be seen, then that means he has a shape, volume, color, and is thus limited. There is also the concept of Allah's throne, which seems very physical according to what we find in the Qur'an and ahadith, thus if Allah is sitting at a given point, at a given time, He has very physical characteristics, and is limited. It would seem that at a later time Muslims have tried to reconcile and reinterpret these curious passages.
Now, some might feel there is a contradiction in this article, as it is claimed that if Allah is unlimited, then Jesus (assuming he existed) must've been Allah. Then in the next paragraph, above, it is argued that if a being has a shape, volume, color, he/she/it is limited. The argument is not that only Jesus and Fard Muhammad were divine, but ALL things. Every inch of our entire universe must be a part of Allah if He is truly infinite. However, the problem with that is things within our universe change, and it would seem that change, as was pointed out by Aristotle long ago, negates perfection. The point of all this is to show the absurd nature of the concept of an unlimited being.
PROOF OF ALLAH'S EXISTENCE
Whenever I'm in discussions with Muslims, I ask that they prove the existence of Allah rather than just claiming such. The reality is they cannot offer any proof, because, in my humble opinion, there is no proof. The most popular argument used by Muslims seems to be the design argument (which is odd considering that the kalam cosmological argument was perfected by Muslims, but I'll touch on that a bit later). The basic (and wholly circular) design argument from Muslims goes something to the effect of "if something as complex as life wasn't created by Allah, then how was it made? Did it just pop out of thin air?"
My favorite response to such questions is to proclaim that the world, and all things within it were created by three green elves from dimension X. If the three green elves didn't create the world, do you assume it just appeared out of no where? The problem is the same: you are simply asserting that the world is designed and that Allah (or the 3 elves in my case) is the designer. This is not a proof. Furthermore, as I've already shown, we must conclude that Allah is limited, or at least that the laws of the universe do not need a creator. Based on that, we know that not all things need a creator. Regardless, don't assert that Allah is the creator; prove it! The design argument does nothing of the sort.
Some of the more intellectual Muslims I've encountered have tried to run the cosmological argument. It is actually the same argument, only instead of saying that life's complexities point to Allah, it is argued that everything points to Allah. The argument is that every thing has a cause, and it is impossible to have an infinite regress of causes (this assertion has yet to be proven), and thus Allah is the first cause (another baseless assertion). Once again, it runs along the lines of "if Allah didn't create the universe, who did?" The problem with this is that it is never proven that Allah is this alleged first cause. We could just the same state that all things need a cause, and thus wonder "what caused Allah?" The supporters of this argument want us to just accept the premise that Allah is the first cause, and does not Himself need a cause, which is a case of special pleading, i.e. a fallacy.
Quickly, I'd like to explain why Allah's existence can never really be proven, short of Him actually revealing himself. To set an example, I'd first like to offer what I call "the argument from presents" for Santa's existence:
(1) If there are presents under my tree, Santa Claus exists.
(2) There are presents under my tree.
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(3) Santa Claus exists.
This argument is perfectly valid. Now suppose I used this argument, and pointed to actual presents under my tree. Would this be proof that Santa Claus exists? Despite the fact that it is a valid argument, this is not a proof for Santa Claus' existence. To understand why, one would need a basic knowledge of sentential logic. I'll try to quickly explain it here. Let P stand for "there are presents under my tree," and let S stand for "Santa Claus exists." I will now construct a logical truth table for all the possibilities:
- P - S
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- T - T
- T - F
- F - T
- F - F
These are all the possible "truths" for these two statements. Now note the second line. It is possible for presents to be under my tree, and it is also possible for Santa to not exist. Thus, according to sentential logic, P does not imply S. That is the reason that the perfectly valid "argument from presents" does not prove Santa's existence. Anytime that you claim that a totally ambiguous and unobservable entity ("Santa Claus," "God," "the Pink Unicorn," "the 3 Green Elves from Dimension X," et cetera) exists, and try to prove it pointing to something common, it can be argued that the existence of the common thing does not automatically imply the existence of the baseless and/or undefined thing you are trying to prove. Complex life forms do not imply Allah's existence any more than they imply the existence of the aforementioned Three Green Elves from Dimension X. The existence of the universe does not imply Allah's existence. The following argument is the outline of all proofs for Allah's existence:
(1) If X, then Allah exists.
(2) X.
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(3) Allah exists.
While this argument is logically valid, it does not prove that Allah exists because X does not necessarily imply Allah's existence, thus the first premise is erroneous. This is why every argument for Allah's existence can be shot down so easily. It is not that the wicked Mulhid (atheist) is being unfair or irrational. Rather it is because the Muslim pushing these arguments does not understand why the logic behind them is not totally sound.
To this point I have, in my opinion, discredited the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient, unlimited Allah, and I have also shown why all arguments for His existence are somewhat fallacious. At this point, emotion comes in, and some Muslims might say that they feel Allah deep in their heart. A sincere gut feeling is not proof of anything, as many people sincerely believe many things, and many of these sincere beliefs contradict one another. Many people living in Christian dominated countries (including yours truly) have had experiences such as Jesus coming to them in a dream, telling them that he died for their sins, and is God, the son of God, et cetera, thus if sincere gut feelings or amazing transcendent experiences are some sort of proof, these sorts of things discredit Islam, and prove Christianity. With that being said, some Muslims might say that they can't imagine a world without Allah. What is the point of life if Allah does not exist? I wonder what is the point of life either way.
ALLAH'S SIGNIFICANCE
The more I ponder the existence of a god, be it the deity of Islam or any other respective faith, the less sense any of it makes. Purandara Dasa said that the only thing that makes life worth living is God. Blaise Pascal's famous "wager" basically argued that we should believe in God, just in case. The question is why? What is the significance of Allah, and how does this make any difference in one's life? Buddha was once, according Hinayana and Mahayana tradition, asked by his disciples if God existed, to which the Buddha replied something along the lines of "who cares?"
It seems that Islam, much like Christianity, keeps its believers in line via threats of eternal torment. With all due respect, the descriptions of Jahannam seem crude, and are only slightly more logical than the concept of hell in Christianity. Is this the point of your life? To avoid punishment at the hands of a being more powerful than you? Is that not coercion? To threaten someone, and say "do as I say, or I will punish you severely" is cruel, and very unbecoming of an allegedly merciful being. Furthermore, within the scope of eternity, no punishment seems all that bad. Even the Islamic hell, where skins are roasted off and then replaced, is nothing to be feared. Eternity means forever, and one would think that after a few billion years they could get used to such treatment. Imagine if I punched you in the chest, leaving a bruise. Then I waited for the bruise to heal, and punched you again, and continued the cycle for the rest of our lives. After this cycle had repeated a few times, I imagine you would be used to the punches. Just the same, after about thirty trillion years, a man might actually be looking forward to his new skin suit. In short, eternal punishment is not any sort of punishment at all.
Is life meant only for appeasing the whims of a cosmic bully? I would assume no Muslim would see it that way. Instead, I think many believers of any particular strain of Christo-Islamic faith would argue that it is not so much an attempt to escape punishment as it is to make it to heaven/paradise. How many times have we seen images on television of a young Muslims getting ready to fight some Western imperialist force (be it the Israelis or the Soviets) saying that he is not afraid to die, as then he will be a shaheed (martyr) and go to paradise. Is life solely meant for gaining some sort of physical reward? Virgins? Gardens? Rivers of khamr? It would seem that Islam still pushes for some sort of materialistic desire to be acheived in a very earthly paradise. Don't lead a materialistic life here, because you'll have plenty of time to do so in the next. Do not have sexual relations with numerous women in this life, because you'll have time to do that in the next. Do not drink khamr in this life, but in the next it will flow in rivers (Sura Muhammad 47:15). This is not only mildly hypocritical, but it is also seemingly pointless to live one's life solely for the sake of some sort of personal gain.
The third and final reason to serve Allah, assuming He exists, is simply for the sake of doing it. Christians "serve" God as part of a "relationship" they have with God; out of love for God. Just the same, it would seem some Muslims, though not claiming to have a relationship with Allah, express deep love for their respective deity. That is perfectly all right, but what does that have to do with anyone else? I think this hi-lights a simple fact that human beings form relationships with or interact with other beings for only three reasons: (1) To gain something. (2) To avoid pain, suffering, or punishment. (3) Out of simple respect for that being. This is the case with all beings, from our pets, to other humans, to our respective deity (assuming we have one). Therefore, Allah is no more different from any other being in the grand scheme of things. You love Allah, and I love my cat and my girlfriend; and if Bill Clinton threatened to have me killed for disputing the legitimacy of his claim to the presidency, I would not think of him as an honorable or merciful being.
CONCLUSION
Allah's alleged attributes are both illogical and incoherent. The reasons for believing that He exists have been shown to be either fallacious or pointless. No proof for His alleged existence has ever been provided. The very idea of His existence is of a fantastic nature, and thus questionable. It is for all these reasons that I submit to you that Allah does not exist. This is why I am an Atheist, and not a Muslim.
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 26, 2004 - 12:08 PM
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Thank you Sean for your reply and sorry for delay.
YOU SAID:
Firstly, I did not realize that you are from Iran and were an ex Muslim and therefore have first hand PERSONAL experiences of these things; therefore your view on these things will differ from mine or other Westerners, as it is hard to picture (could you send me those links to my messenger?).
MY ANSWER:
No, Sean, My 12 questions are not “personal” experiences as you know. They are logical, historical and scientific questions. When I ask and some members of this forum telling me they are insulted, then I also have the right to tell them I am also much more than insulted from Islamic laws and sure they were personal, but not the questions which until now is not answered.
Which links dear Sean?
YOU SIAD:
- You tell me not to divert the questions towards my own personal experiences, but you didnt realise that you have reshaped this whole discussion based on your personal experiences in Iran!
MY ANSWER:
My 12 questions are not based personal experiences. What is happening in Iran is not personal.
Which problem that I presented was specifically my very own problem and I received to a conclusion based on my own personal experiences like what a Mullah told me or what a Mullah did? Which one does not affect others?
At the start of this thread did I say this discussion was to discuss Islam? It is about TOLERANCE. So if you can criticise Islam I can criticise other religions and cultures. There is a difference between criticism and outright intolerance.
So I think you should stop speaking in such a condescending manner!
MY ANSWER:
Please be honest Sean, didn’t you start this thread of tolerance after we presented some questions and facts about Islam? So why divert it to Christianism? Are we Christian to talk about how bad it is?!!
BTW which part of my questions was outright intolerance, please be specific.
YOU SIAD:
Anyway,
I have read some of your other posts (but I cant access your links):
WHICH ONE?
YOU SIAD:
The post about Khomeni was disgusting, I saw a documentary on him and it (strangely) did not mention this and attempted to glorify him in some way.
Also, as I am ignorant on this, is Sharia Law different for Shi'ites than Sunnis?
MY ANSWER:
Not very much, but yes a little bit and interesting to know Sunnis believe Shiates are infidels and vice versa!!!
YOU SAID:
In answer to your 12 questions - NO, these things should not be tolerated. In my previous email I was merely supplying an argument for these things other than verses in the Quran, to show that there are non Muslims also who find some of these actions tolerable, just as there are Muslims who do not tolerate these things!
Is it Islam that you think should not be tolerated or just some of the verses in the Quran?
MY ANSWER:
That’s the problem with Muslims. You will not find any Muslim who can reject even one verse of Quran. Even one verse equals the whole book.
YOU SIAD:
With regards to Muhammed marrying a seven-year old, as appalling as it sounds, do you not think in the 8th century, people were physically worked at younger ages, having much lower life expectancies and therefore marriage at such an age was 'normal'?
We know that now this behaviour is unacceptable and cannot be condoned in any way and it must be stopped wherever present, so you are right.
MY ANSWER:
Please be honest and answer this question: Are we talking about people or messenger of God? Role model of all times and locations who we should imitate what he did? Please answer this and let finish this discussion.
Quote:
"Look what's happening in my country. It is governed by Islamic rules and we believe it is harsh and inhuman"
Yes, but is it because of Islam or because of corrupt leaders?
MY ANSWER:
BOTH
If it is Islam why do not all Muslim countries have the same problems?
MY ANSWER:
Because they are being ruled by secular governments not by Islamic ones. Now you answer this question: why all Muslim Countries that are ruled by Islamic Government have the same problems?!!!
If it solely Islam, why do not all Muslims think this way?
Like which one?
Also, quote:
"If it is mentioned in Bible, by all means!!"
Look here
http://www.str.org/free/studies/capipuni.htm
Thanks for the link, I am not Christian.
Quote:
"Nobody showed up to let me know what is the correct translation and why I am wrong. Unfortunately you are not a Muslim to help me"
Yes, Im not Muslim and I havent read the Quran, maybe someone more educated on this could step forward.
I hope so!
YOU SAiD:
But, as I said before, language is ambiguous, one persons interpretation of something they have read, even if they understand the language perfectly, can be different from that of another person!
MY ANSWER:
Not true!! Read question:
6- Why all of those who studied Islam for all of their lives reached to the same point? Why they claim that’s because it was said in Quran that life value of salves, men and women are not equal.
I hope to find enlightening responses...
Same here
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Re: What's been going on??? (Continuing Islamic discussions)
January 28, 2004 - 03:34 AM
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Porky:
I enjoyed reading your logical argument on the existence of Allah. Your points are well laid out and argued at an intellectual level, and I applaud that.
However, I did find some errors in your reasoning. Your arguemtn about logical statements is interesting but their is another side. I agree with the Santa argument. If I have presents under the tree, that does not necessarily prove the existence of santa. It does not, however, explicitly disprove the existence of Santa. Santa putting the presents under the tree is just one of many possibilities and could possibly be the right one.
The other issue I have is with your arguments concering Omnipotence and Omniscience. You start by saying that a the God is limitless, which is the definition of Onimpotent. And that Omniscience limits Omnipotence. However if Omnipotence is Ultimate Power (dictionary.com) then omniscience comes with omnipotence.
The last argument notwithstanding. Your arguments against the Omnipotence and Omniscience of Allah are flawed. You have necessarily put human restricitons on the deity. If Allah is Omnipotent and Omniscience then Allah is necessarily at all points in history simultaneously. There is no knowledge in the human form, because all our lives depend on that fourth Dimension knowns as TIme. This does not exist for omnipotent or omniscient beings.
Just some things to think about.
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