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Yara Kassem
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Very Very dangerous phenomenon
January 17, 2004 - 02:58 AM
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Today,I just need to tackle a weird but important phenomenon that has been hapenning in TIG for a while...
Those people attacking ISLAM and other religions in a very humiliating way,the first tie i saw that discussion posted by one of TIG members and its title was about Islam ruining lives now you just put yourselves in my shoes and just try to imagine yourself in my position when someone is insulting your religion,your beleifs and the sacred and holly things in your life,attacking all those stuff in such an humiliating way..
Then I started reading the discussion to see him posting fake hadith ( the prophet's statements)lies,and unfair things saying that Islam encourages slavery,women abuse ,crimes and so on...
My first reaction to all of this I cried,I cried a lot for being put in that unfair situation,I just couldn't answer such fake and untrue accusations,I couldn't take seeing myself and my religion insulted and abused in such a cheap way in that discussion..
And after that first discussion,I've seen a lot of similar discussions racial discussions and posts,and not only to Islam but to Judism which is completely unacceptable,both are respectable religions that shouldn't be a tool for such a cheap abusive discussions..And now,I just have a question to you ALL,do you think that is Fair???????
And then I started noticing those anti-islamic nicknames for some of the members such as AGAINST ISLAM and stuff like that,those nicknames themselves are consider an abuse to us,to Islam and to all members from other religions...
Statements attacking and insulting Islam,Judism...Anti-islamic and Anti-semitic statements,insults to prophet Muhammad,to Jesus and to Mosus...
What's hapenning here????
This is not the spirit of TIG where we're supposed to exchange cultures on a friendly basis,it's no room for attacking and insulting religions and holy things...
There has to be something to stop those people from insulting us in such an abusive way...
Let's just do something to get bak to freindly way of exchanging info about our cultures and get away from insulting each one's religion..
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Adnan
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Re: Very Very dangerous phenomenon
January 17, 2004 - 03:21 AM
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Hi Yarinos,
This is not the spirit of TIG where we're supposed to exchange cultures on a friendly basis,it's no room for attacking and insulting religions and holy things...
There has to be something to stop those people from insulting us in such an abusive way...
Let's just do something to get bak to freindly way of exchanging info about our cultures and get away from insulting each one's religion..
I respect Muslims, I have muslim friends and family, but I myself am an agnostic. You cried about how people talked about Islam, but you didnt find a problem with Mohammed ordering to kill Apostates like me because they left Islam?
If I ordered to kill any Muslim here, I would be banned right away - yet, you have not commented on whether it was right of Mohammed to order to kill ME.
Why should'nt we talk about religions? Is it not a life-threatening situation for me? How do I deal with it? You say the hadiths are fake, they are not. They are Sahih Bukhari hadith, the most accepted of hadiths.
Narrated Ikrima:
"Ali burnt some people [hypocrites] and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' " (Sahih Bukhari 4.260)
Tell me Yarinos: how should I react to a death threat? Perhaps I should also cry for myself that I've been wronged? I want to be friends with you too, but not unless you declare that Mohammed was wrong to order to kill people who left Islam. I know you know that anyone who believes that I should be killed, cannot be my friend.
A good free exchange of ideas is always healthy. A society in which Freedom of Expression is arrested, can never progress and progress is the main theme if this website, which is why I'm concerned if people are not allowed to speak their minds in a respectful way. Religions can be critiqued in a decent way too.
I'm impressed by your cartoonist ability and glad you're volunteering for NGO's. Is there any online link where I can see some of your cartoons?
Adnan
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Abdallah Diwan
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Re: Very Very dangerous phenomenon
January 17, 2004 - 03:53 AM
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Message Deleted by the Moderator of the Forum.
Reasons: intolerant behaviour (i.e. physical and verbal threats) will not be allowed.
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Adnan
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Re: Very Very dangerous phenomenon
January 17, 2004 - 04:03 AM
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Abdullah1. dont go to your country back
2. no one in your country could kill you as it is an islamic country.
I saw your advice in the (unfortunately) closed thread. Its good advice, yes, but I didnt hear you comment on the law that orders to kill me:
3. the only one who could kill you is your government
and after lots of procedure , i previously did say in another discussion , to amswer you young affraied boy.
Is that the right thing for the Government to do? What if you were a citizen of a country which had laws for killing anyone who converted to Islam and you were a new convert to Islam? Would you feel the Government did the right thing?
I want you and all Muslims here to say that its wrong to kill people who leave or join Islam. Can I get you all to say that or is that too much to ask for?
If you dont agree with that, can I get a statement from you if you have the courage to say whats in your heart, that yes, I should be killed?
thanks
Adnan
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Yara Kassem
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Re: Very Very dangerous phenomenon
January 17, 2004 - 04:17 AM
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None of the muslims on TIg or anywhere else will say something like that..Though i don't beleive in replying to your nonesense posts but I just wanted to say that all you're saying abd beleiving is nonesense...
STOP ABUSING ISLAM....Leave Islam alone,You and insane people who don't understand a single word about Islam are just abusing us and our respectable religion,and not only our religion but all other honourable religions as christianity and Judism...
Look,I don't beleive in wasting my time in answering you cz it's usueless and Yes You should never go back to your country...and Yes,I beleive in everysingle word Muhammad said...and stop posting fake hadith,and stop harraassing us please and abusing our holy thing...
Listen,I don't really care about you being a muslim or leaving Islam because simply it's none of my business and no you don't wanna be my friend,I know that for sure,c I don't like people who hurt me,abuse me ,and mistreat my religion...
I'm sorry to participate in such an abusive conversation,It's so frustrating...But I should tell you to stop harrassing us..OK?
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Abdallah Diwan
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Re: Very Very dangerous phenomenon
January 17, 2004 - 04:25 AM
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My personal oppinion is islam did a right thing , and great profite Mohamed dont set nothing without a perpose , cause he is a mesenger form god , and you aint any thing in coparison to him , and as god saied ( la yanteko an el hawa) which mean he never say something to his thoughts , but to god thoughts ,
SO , I totally agree that you must be killed you and the others , but after following all the procedures with you .
with my respect to you , but this is MY OPinion , and me and all the Muslims on TIG , will not respond to your request , or he will be leaveing the profites orders , and he will be a non muslim , I will try to search why is it that you must be killed , and how to avoide geting killed , but till know YOU MUST BE KILLED , by your government,
Hope you make it , and live ....
young scared man
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Very Very dangerous phenomenon
January 17, 2004 - 05:45 AM
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Abdull - please - lets stop telling people they are going to be killed or that they deserve it - its not constructive and frankly there is nothing wrong with being an agnostic - it just means you are more impressed with Science than religion and have decided you are not sure whether or not an anthropomorphic god exists.
Again it is an issue of someone being persecuted for their beliefs.
Adnark - if you have questions about Islam you have a right to ask them - but respectfully - don't assume that Islam is wrong - assume that it is rightous and that you are misunderstanding.
Try to remember that 1500 years ago when these social laws were being written the world was a very different place than it is today.
Who exactly is threatening your life? Is this a theoretical threat or is someone actually threatening to kill you?
As you are a former Muslim and you are talking to two Muslims perhaps you can devise a way for the religion to be reformed - all religions go through periods of reform.
There are parts of the old testimant that demand that homosexuals be killed - I doubt you will find many churches who still uphold that beleif.
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Abdallah Diwan
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Re: Very Very dangerous phenomenon
January 17, 2004 - 06:00 AM
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thnx Luke , I was just agreeing with what my profites rules , and i said my self i am not going to kill him , that rules was set long time a go , i never saw an agnostic who got killed , or even treated badly in Egypt .
I just was saying that i will never go againest my Profites comands , that's it .
he is really talking in a very strange way , as if this happenes .
he cant be killed i said if he dont mess with others in islam ( fasad fe al ard) , and talk to all people about leaveing isalm , and organizing , communities againest islam . i think that is why some of them should be killed . but if that is not there i think they can live in peace , any way that was long time ago , and i think in this forum we will try to answer him , i will also try to ask some scholers and tell you .
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Haythem Kamel
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THATS REALLY FUNNY
January 17, 2004 - 08:55 AM
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dear all
thanks yara for your reply
and there is an important point you need to know
all of the tig members whom are saying bad things about islam , didnt say any other thing , or promote any other thing to the site
they even didnt try to join any kind of discusions that speak about every thing
and not that only , but also , they are attacking Islam in any discussion they share in
and they all joined TIG lately , as if they are only goin the site to attack islam , thats all
and you can check that by your self
and thanks abdullah , that you told them to try to be interested in another thing
and now , i think they are trying to post any thing in any other topic
and most of them joined the TIG withen the last week , and each day there is another one who join , with another name
i think all of them are the same person , or twins , or friends , or some thing whom have related to each other
and i am sure that they are not professions at all
their way of the discussion is very silly to any 10 years old boy
and those members are
DoctorNO
Registered: 2004-01-13
Location: Canada
Posts: 21 [view list]
adnank
Registered: 2004-01-12
Location: United States
Posts: 12 [view list]
abdelmes
Registered: 2004-01-15
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 3 [view list]
truthful
Registered: 2004-01-15
Location: Canada
Posts: 1 [view list]
MMughal
Registered: 2003-11-28
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 45 [view list]
please
try to speak about any thing else , and dont make your old ways
because enough , is enough
and now every body knows your truth
what about speaking about the cinema movies , there are new movies that is more important to speak about ( comparing by your old ways of talking ahahahahahahahaha )
and thanks Luke for your reply
but to tell you an important thing
they are not telling the truth , they only tell a small part of it
and yara and abdulla forget to say it about it
there is no killing for the one who left islam
because , if a person leaved Islam , in islamic country
and he declared that , only if he declared that
the government tell him to leave the country
and thats all
but if he didnt leave the country , and stayed in the same islamic country , and also he tried to make others to follow him
in this situation only , the government havethe right to kill him
IT IS LOGIC
and this is the same as if any one make a political secret party that going to change the government by force
and even in USA if there is a person , that work againest the government , the government have the right to kill him
IT IS LOGIC
so it is to make the country without trouple
but what our KID did in this discussion
he said that , ( i cant say that i am ex muslim , i am gonna be killed )
and when any non muslim heard that , he will have a bad idea about islam
THATS WHAT HE WANTS OTHERS TO THINK
SO , ENOUGH IS ENOUGH
SO PLEASE IF YOU FOUND ANY ONE OF THE MEMBERS THAT I TOLD YOU , REPLY TO ANY DISCUSSION
CONSIDER IT TRANSPARENT , AND DONT COST YOUR TIME BY READING IT
AND FOR THOSE WHOM ATTACKING ISLAM
TRY TO SPEAK ABOUT ANY THING ELSE
WHAT ABOUT FOOTBALL , SPORTS , MOVIES
THERE IS ZILLIONS OF TOPICS
AND PLEASE
GET A LIFE
THANKS
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Yara Kassem
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Re: Very Very dangerous phenomenon
January 18, 2004 - 02:48 AM
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Thanks Luke about that post,that was quite fair..I would really appreciate if anyone wants to ask anything about Islam to ask it friendly without insulting any of the prophets.
Adnan- I don't really care or mind you being agnostic,but you don't have to harrass me in all discussions..
And I didn't see you discussing anything else than how ugly is Islam and how bad are muslims,don't you have any other issues to adress???
And I don't think that Abdallah meant to give you a death threat,but we(like most of people)beleive in every single word said by our prophet(and not fake statements like one of your friends do),and like he said he doesn't intend to kill you or anyone agnostic but that's the laws in Islamic countries
And by the way,I have agnostic friends but they don't give me conditions before having me as friend,You can't tell me I won't be your friend unless you say your prophet was wrong,well NO..I won't say that my prophet was wrong...
And you're right about that point Haythem,I didn't see those people discussing anything else than the ugliness of Islam..
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Very Very dangerous phenomenon
January 18, 2004 - 02:58 AM
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Mullahmo - I didn't reolize that you had to attend an Islamic university to understand that religion is a matter of interpretations - its called common sense.
Frankly if you have nothing constructive to add to the discussion than why are you participating in it?
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Re: Very Very dangerous phenomenon
January 18, 2004 - 03:52 AM
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Originally posted by omarafghan
That’s why we need religion. We need it to teach us morals and to teach us values!
Speaking about phenomenon, does anyone think these verses from Islamic ahadith have something to do with the phenomenon of suicide bombings?
Is this a reasonable cause for concern for those who do not follow Mohammed's Islam?
Dear Omarafghan, do you think that many Muslim folks get their "values" from these type of Islamic guidances?
Yes I know that OT Bible contains some horrific verses, but over time, most, if not all "people of the book" have evolved away from such horrific "guidances" and disregard such ways, considering these type of OT Bible verses as only a record of history, hence these type of verses are now benign.
There is a serious problem when people take such "guidance" as a wasy to behave in our world of today, don't you think?
Ahadith Quotes:
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 35: Sahih Bukhari
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr). Had I not found it difficult for my followers, then I would not remain behind any sariya going for Jihad and I would have loved to be martyred in Allah's cause and then made alive, and then martyred and then made alive, and then again martyred in His cause."
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 53:Sahih Bukhari
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
The Prophet said, "Nobody who dies and finds good from Allah (in the Hereafter) would wish to come back to this world even if he were given the whole world and whatever is in it, except the martyr who, on seeing the superiority of martyrdom, would like to come back to the world and get killed again (in Allah's Cause)."
Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol. 1:814.
Al-Miqdam b. Madikarib reported God’s messenger as saying, "The martyr receives six good things from God: he is forgiven at the first shedding of his blood, he is shown his abode in paradise, he is preserved from the punishment in the grave, he is kept safe from the greatest terror, he has placed on his head the crown of honour a ruby which is better than the world and what it contains, he is married to seventy-two wives of the maidens with large dark eyes, and is made intercessor for seventy of his relatives." Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah transmitted it.
Regards.
Porky.
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Re: Very Very dangerous phenomenon
January 18, 2004 - 04:23 AM
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"yarinos" wrote:
Today,I just need to tackle a weird but important phenomenon that has been hapenning in TIG for a while...
Those people attacking ISLAM and other religions in a very humiliating way,
.....when someone is insulting your religion,your beleifs and the sacred and holly things in your life,attacking all those stuff in such an humiliating way..
Then I started reading the discussion to see him posting fake hadith ( the prophet's statements)lies,and unfair things saying that Islam encourages slavery,women abuse ,crimes and so on...
My first reaction to all of this I cried,I cried a lot for being put in that unfair situation,I just couldn't answer such fake and untrue accusations,I couldn't take seeing myself and my religion insulted and abused in such a cheap way in that discussion..
And after that first discussion,I've seen a lot of similar discussions racial discussions and posts,and not only to Islam but to Judism which is completely unacceptable,both are respectable religions that shouldn't be a tool for such a cheap abusive discussions..And now,I just have a question to you ALL,do you think that is Fair???????
And then I started noticing those anti-islamic nicknames for some of the members such as AGAINST ISLAM and stuff like that,those nicknames themselves are consider an abuse to us,to Islam and to all members from other religions...
Statements attacking and insulting Islam,Judism...Anti-islamic and Anti-semitic statements,insults to prophet Muhammad,to Jesus and to Mosus...
What's hapenning here????
This is not the spirit of TIG where we're supposed to exchange cultures on a friendly basis,it's no room for attacking and insulting religions and holy things...
There has to be something to stop those people from insulting us in such an abusive way...
Let's just do something to get bak to freindly way of exchanging info about our cultures and get away from insulting each one's religion..
UNQUOTE
---------------------------------------------
Dear Yarinos,
Would you be so kind as to cite and provide examples of what you have said here above(in bold-type)?
How can quoting from Quran and ahadith be "insulting', "attacking", "humiliating", "abusive", racists"?
Please cite the "fake hadith" that you mentioned.
Please explain how these quotes below might be considered insulting, attacking, humiliating,etc?
Quote, Quran:
005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
003.028
YUSUFALI: Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.
PICKTHAL: Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.
SHAKIR: Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
---------------------------------------------------
P.S. I have only ONE NICK HERE, no multiple nicks.
Regards.
Porky.
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THATS REALLY FUNNY
January 18, 2004 - 04:58 AM
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Originally posted by haythem
dear all
thanks yara for your reply
and there is an important point you need to know
all of the tig members whom are saying bad things about islam , didnt say any other thing , or promote any other thing to the site
they even didnt try to join any kind of discusions that speak about every thing
and not that only , but also , they are attacking Islam in any discussion they share in
and they all joined TIG lately , as if they are only goin the site to attack islam , thats all
and you can check that by your self............
Dear haythem,
If people read and quote things that are from Islam's own literature, how can that be "saying bad things about islam"?
Originally posted by haythem and thanks Luke for your reply
but to tell you an important thing
they are not telling the truth , they only tell a small part of it.................
What exactly are the things that are not the truth?
Are you saying that people are deliberately lying, or they are telling things they think are true but are not true?
Please explain.
Originally posted by haythem there is no killing for the one who left islam
because , if a person leaved Islam , in islamic country
and he declared that , only if he declared that
the government tell him to leave the country
and thats all
but if he didnt leave the country , and stayed in the same islamic country , and also he tried to make others to follow him
in this situation only , the government havethe right to kill him
IT IS LOGIC
and this is the same as if any one make a political secret party that going to change the government by force
and even in USA if there is a person , that work againest the government , the government have the right to kill him
IT IS LOGIC
Why does the government have the right to kill him?
Do you mean for following another religion except Islam and not leaving an islamic country.
Do you think if christian-based country did this to people who were not christian, (i.e. ask them to leave or be killed) that it would be OK?
Please explain.
regards.
Porky.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Very Very dangerous phenomenon
January 18, 2004 - 05:47 AM
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Well Porky - all religion is a matter of interpretation - if you are trying to interpret in it a poor way - then Muslims who beleive it are going to be insulted.
Just take the word "Jihad" - Some Muslims have lately been taking this word to mean a violent struggle and used it to justify terrorism - but these people are the exception - not the rule.
Most Muslims if asked will explain that "Jihad" is a personal struggle to live a just and moral life.
It is actually very close to St. Augustine's confessions "lord make me a moral man - but not yet!"
So you see that things written 1500 years ago are open for interpretation - and ultimately it will be a matter of how you interpret it - and which Hadiths are considered really important.
Interpretation is the reason that there are a dozen major sects of Christianity - they are all reading the same book - but some away with different meanings - Catholics, Apiscopalians, Eastern Orthodox, Baptist, Jehovah's Witnesses, Quackers etc. etc. etc.
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