Democracy - Imposition or Self-generation? - Discussion Boards

Michael Newton-McLaughlin

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Re: Democracy - Imposition or Self-generation?
January 19, 2004 - 01:06 AM

Well... perhaps a few more people will respond to you than just I, since you probably know what I will say.

First off, I do not really think democracy, or at least the values that seem to develop the concept during the enlightenment, have really been fully experienced any where. I do, however, think that greater amounts of participation by the general population has transpired, if even they are subdued and steered by those who want to control them. I think that some level of 'freedom' has been experienced that could have never occured under autocracy... and that generally this seems pretty damn good.

So then, my conclusion, is that a system of government imposed- to place demands on- by another power is essentially the move that an autocrat would take. I think when a country is ready to, it will probably move towards democracy by itself. Generally there are two accepted ways- elite revolutions (from above) and populist revolutions (from bellow). A third is a sort of 'elite' revolution that is fought with the support of a majority of the masses. Unfortunately, elite revolutions are the most common (or in my humble studies thus far), and are generally meant to just change one corrosive power into the hands of another. Thankfully, however, if that 'other' is at least democratic in nature, there is hope for some sort of a... propuslion away from elitism. Some good examples??? The US was definately an elite revolution, though I would certainly say that Russia and Cuba were good examples of elite revolutions with a majority of the population in support. Does anyone know of any actual 'populist' revolutions? (An example would be one where there was an autonomous leadership that handed power over when they acheived their goals of overthrowing the current government, with the majority of the population in support)

Ashley

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Re: Democracy - Imposition or Self-generation?
January 19, 2004 - 01:18 AM

Originally posted by Jedimike

- I am so glad to hear that the white man's burden is still an accepted part of American ethos... indeed, we must help all the helpless brown people... right?

I didnt mean it that way. No we don't help the poor helpless brown people. I never think of people in that way. people are people no matter what they look like. I meant we help the people that are repressed and being ruled with an iron fist under tyranny.

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Re: Democracy - Imposition or Self-generation?
January 19, 2004 - 02:01 AM

Re: Democracy - Imposition or Self-generation?
January 19, 2004 - 03:43 AM

imposition can work I think. Esspecially with Iraq because they were sorta helpless because of Saddam. After we took him out they were obviously happy someone helped them out. And now they are slowly on their way to a democracy.>>

- I am so glad to hear that the white man's burden is still an accepted part of American ethos... indeed, we must help all the helpless brown people... right?

- Who was obviously happy? Why is it that there is a rather large resistance group forming? (50,000 by the CIA account)

- What is democracy??? Elections?

gerhard leinenga

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Democracy?
January 19, 2004 - 05:20 AM

In this post I wish to question the value of Demcracy...
What is democracy and what would its value be in Iraq...
IS Democracy an American style election system where the current president- George W Bush was able to come to power in an unfair election process... (Remember the faulty voting cards?)
I feel that Iraq is still a quite politically primitive country. There are many different religious, political and race groups in Iraq who exist in a state of conflict. Iraq in my opinion would not fai well under a weak democratic government made up largely of what is termed the governing council. Those officials are American supported Iraqis some of which have not been in Iraq for more than a decade...
Iraq needs a strong impartial government to bring the ethnic, political and religious groups together... This will not be found in an American imposed Democracy.

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M.F.Mughal

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Re: Democracy - Imposition or Self-generation?
January 19, 2004 - 10:06 AM

Dear friends,

demoracy has many aspects in contrast to authoritarianism.

For example, in one respect it means freedom from religious interfernce in state affairs, for it is about government for the people by the people themselves, which means people making laws for themselves as they see them fit rather than religious dictates from the scriptures.

Democracy does not come about peacefully, it never did. The reason is, it is a power struggle against the authoritarianism which fights any opposition at any cost. This is why there are always civil wars between different groups in a state who each fight for their own interests, so the outcome of any civil war is either complete defeat of opposing forces or a compromise between them. This is what brought about democracy in the usa itself. However when usa became a democracy, it became a threat for other authoritarian regimes elsehwere. They could either support usa or oppose it. As things improved in usa due to democracy that forced people elsewhere to follow american lead and it was in the interest of america to encourage and support such actions so that it could get more allies or more people on its side to secure its own existence and future. There has been a constant struggle between demoratic regimes and authoritarian regimes and it continues.

The more regimes in the world turn democratic the more secure america becomes due to having more and more allies. However, the strategies and tactics need to be worked out carefully for each situation, for america cannot fight the whole world on its own in one go. It must choose its targets serially if it wishes to succeed. America is democratic in ideology only and needs yet more time to evolve into a practical good democracy but it never had its hands free to do so. There were japan, germany, ussr that did not let usa take a peaceful breath. In order to get what it wanted america at times had to put many others through terrible consequences.

Our world originates from tribal based absolute monarchy that ultimately gave way to theocratic imperialism which was fought back through communism which is slowly giving way to democracy. It will take yet some time for democracy to become stable and reliable, for many people's needs are still not met to a degree they ought to be met, for that is what we are trying to achieve through democracy, which is true test of democracy ie freedom from poverty, ignorance and disease etc etc.

To get rid of greater danger america had to use another bad lesser dangerous thing and that is how came about saudi monarchy, other dictatorships in muslim states and talebanism. America still needs muslims if it wants to turn china into a democracy or that it needs china on its side to turn muslim states democratic.

The main threatening scenerio in my view is the one where muslim theocrats or fundamentalists and china's communist regime come together. That would create a very serious situation for the usa. China too is trying to stay away from muslim fundamentlaists because they too would spell the end of chinas communist regime. So the game of cat and mouse continues.

Afghanistan and Iraq are used as a testing ground for deciding the future trend of american policy towards muslims and communists. Russia is still in its infancy and is far from being a stable democracy. So usa does not have the support its needs to finish off both communist regimes and the islamic fundamentalism, that is behind muslim terrorists.

If usa succeeds in setting up afghanistan and iraq as demoractic progressive muslim states, the rest of muslim states would no longer see usa as a threat to their nonpolitcal islam and that could easily translate into decmocracies in the rest of muslim world. Also islam would become more acceptable to americans and europeans and other democratic states just like hinduism or christianity is.

This is why all hopes rest on how afghanistan and iraq experiment turns out and usa cannot afford to fail.

regards and all the best.

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Ashley

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Re: Democracy - Imposition or Self-generation?
January 20, 2004 - 09:33 AM

MMughal: You put a very good point up. And thank you for showing your support to America in this test we are going through.

Konstantin: You brought up a good point as well. I do sometimes feel that America is going away from democracy.
The major thing that is most noticable to me is freedom of religion. Some people here take seperation of church and state way to far. Some people are being "offended" by Christmas decoartions in public places. And people are "offended" by saying "under God" in the pledge of alligence. They dont HAVE to say the pledge.

Konstantin

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Re: Democracy - Imposition or Self-generation?
January 20, 2004 - 12:09 PM

May anybody explain me why do I have strong feelign that usa political regime now is very similar to the ussr' one? (In ussr they also cried that it had the most democratic regime in the world)

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Ashley

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Re: Democracy - Imposition or Self-generation?
January 21, 2004 - 08:40 AM

Awesome words there jedimike!:P
ONe question are you a democrat or republican?

Re: Democracy - Imposition or Self-generation?
January 21, 2004 - 12:35 PM

Um... I do not know what to say. What I do question, however, is how 'America' is making the world into a safer more democratic place. Ashley - what test are you talking about??? The only test I see us facing is whether to use the GBU 28 on our targets or to create 'tactical nuclear weapons' that are used to destroy our targets.

I cannot help but feel like either a lunatic who some how got lost on my way to making the world a better place, or if all of you just swallow the fucking news you hear without doing any serious research. Seeing that MMugal is almost old enough to be my grandfather, it really surprises me how someone can get to that age without really doing any hard core research... your values seem to be liberal enough. I've read most of the things you posted regarding the Koran - obviously you're intelligent. The more people keep telling me I am cynical, the more I realize how much more research I still have to do, and to learn how to convey it effectively.

Are any of you familar with dissident literature? Anyone check out something called Democracy Now? Is there any hope that people will stop being conformist, and even still, have I just become one to the far left? All valid questions that should be answered.

Returning back to the issue though... can we actually expedite, fully paackaged, some sort of democracy to another country. First off, is it not a bit.. oh... cultural imperialist of us to do so? Or at least presuming that we know what's right for others, and WHEN they should adopt those principles. Not that I am making some claim that Iraq is not ready to pursue democracy- I have a very keen notion that the majority of every people, of populations of the world, crave democracy. However, there are not just one style, and certainly, I think we should very much question the motives of the U.S. - who opperate for their own interests. Over the past 20 years, the US foreign policy advisors to Washington have prefered a dictatorship... as they have in many countries. Other times, they prefer a democracy. What is the middle ground between the two? Whichever regime will bow to the demands of American interests. Obviously Ahmed Chalibi and his jackals are very business/free market oriented... and will undoubtedly go along with the true governor of Iraq- Bremer.

What do many of you consider to be democracy? Can anyone seriously call elections democracy, or even the establishment of a 'free press' - even if that free pressed is used to repeat state messages and owned by people whose end mission it is to sell you to other companies?

Re: Democracy - Imposition or Self-generation?
January 21, 2004 - 12:43 PM

<<I didnt mean it that way. No we don't help the poor helpless brown people. I never think of people in that way. people are people no matter what they look like. I meant we help the people that are repressed and being ruled with an iron fist under tyranny.>>

I agree with you. People are people, no matter what they look like. The unfortunate reality, however, is that this administration has created a de facto sense of fear, angst or skepticism towards Arabs, or people who appeaer to be Arabs. They have made clear who the enemy is. It is terrorists. Recently, The Washington Post released a study asking 1,800 people from accross the US what ethnicity mosts 'terrorists' are - and without any sort of questioning or thought, 83% of the respondents said Arab. Now, we have no real way of knowing what people are planning to intentional hurt or kill innocent people. Yet, this study more than any thing, reveals that Americans without question really do sort of see the 'Us Vs them' as being 'Us Vs. Arabs' - or something akin to that. The reality, however, is that when we use the definition of a 'terrorist' by the US Army and the US Congress - something pretty shocking gets revealed. The U.S. has also employed terrorism as a tool to acheive it's goals. Just read about the US adventures in Nicaragua, or how we backed up apartheid leaders in South Africa... even still, how we sent weapons and gave diplomatic credence to Suharto even while Indonesia was killing half a million East Timorese...

All I ask is that you take what is undoubtedly a good heart, and do as I did 3 years ago almost, and read and study and research. If you want a bibliography or some sources... feel free to ask.

So I again urge you to not see things through the eyes of Fox News, or CNN for that matter. Instead, pick up many a book, read the newspapers and then see what sorts of things the newspapers have said about the same topic 10 or 20 years ago. Do an internet search on US backed coups, and find one that is interesting - and do a research paper on it. Government documents provide the cleanest, most accurate portrayal as something as grizzly as what we have done. I can garuntee you, it will shake your world as never before.

BTW, let me add, that I feel a sense of pride in America for many things... and gratitude... that many people have worked to make sure we do have those paper trails. It boggles me just what one can find on loc.gov, what one can find going through our foreign policy annual reports, easily found in good public libraries... Yet with this awesome ability, also comes obligation. We can either let others tell us in an hour what they want us to know, or perhaps spend 5 hours more and get a greater sense of the UNEDITED truth.

Re: Democracy - Imposition or Self-generation?
January 22, 2004 - 10:09 AM

<<Awesome>>

I am neither a democrat or a republican. They are essentially the same thing- a business party. I usually use the term 'republocrats' when I refer to our options- or lack of options when it comes to political groups. Frankly, I think we should have taken George Washington's advice, even if it was tardy. In his speech when he left power, he advised the congress not to form official parties. Really, what political parties tend to do, it seems, is allow a set of ideals to be put forth and then people to rally under that banner. It allows political pundits and politicians to come out as a 'this' or 'that' and therefore there are some sort of perceived truths that are automatic about them. The truth, or at least what I have observed, is that generally people are quite different and political parties do little to actually allow honest investigation into a person. 'Partisan politics' is often a cliche used- but what really is it? It is essentially a large group of people hudling together, and give the real or perceived issues at hand this umbrella name that promotes a few themes. It allows people to say the same things with a different name behind them.

No, the business party is not something I will be involved in. No, I am not green either- I belong to no party.

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Re: Democracy - Imposition or Self-generation?
January 23, 2004 - 07:08 AM

Thats true jedimike. You have pretty good views. I ususlly lean towards the republican side though.