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r g
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The many definitions of Peace?
January 15, 2004 - 01:19 AM
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From another thread we read this...
Originally posted by abdallahdiwan
yes please Mmugahel , i know you offcource got all that hate to islam because of something , so please dont let this hate make you look only for how to destroy the relegion of peace , so please stop misguideing Tigers and be some one who really creat a better life , you are now living in peace i think ,
Peace. A word we both use but do we mean the same thing?
What is peace for you and how is this achieved?
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Abdallah Diwan
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Re: The many definitions of Peace?
January 15, 2004 - 01:39 AM
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hii Dr No ,
i would like to know your pointes firest 
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Ansari, Omar Mansoor
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Re: The many definitions of Peace?
January 15, 2004 - 01:40 AM
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mmmmmmmmm
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majeedullah qarar
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Why does Islam become under heavy security?
January 15, 2004 - 01:45 AM
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Why does Islam become under heavy security?
Because Islam is the only religion that wants to return the honor to the morality, and to make the politics obedient to the values, something that threats the benefits of the politics.
Because Islam rejects the inequality in the society and the politics of today are based on it.
Because the Islam want the criminals to be punished seriously, and the politicians of today support the criminals.
Because Islam is the great supporter of the weak people of the society and that is what politicians are afraid of.
Because Islam want every thing to be referred to a rule and regulation that can guarantee the goodness of the human, but the politicians doesn’t like to be asked about what they do, they want to be absolutes and ……………………….
Thats why islam is under heavy security today.
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r g
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Re: The many definitions of Peace?
January 15, 2004 - 01:50 AM
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For many people "Peace" means all of the following:
a* a state of tranquillity or quiet such as freedom from civil disturbance
b* a state of security or order within a community provided for by law or custom
c* freedom from disquieting or oppressive thoughts or emotions
d* harmony in personal relations
e* a state or period of mutual concord between governments
f* a pact or agreement to end hostilities between those who have been at war or in a state of enmity
---------------
Now muslims are stressing "peace" also. But from our understanding of peace there is difficulty reconciling the points above with what we see & hear in current events and from other sources.
Now how do you define peace. Which ones above do you agree with? Do you have other views about "peace"?
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r g
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Why does Islam become under heavy security?
January 15, 2004 - 01:53 AM
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Originally posted by qararander
Why does Islam become under heavy security?
Perhaps some of the answers are found here...
http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/thebook.html
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Adnan
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Re: The many definitions of Peace?
January 15, 2004 - 03:12 AM
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brother qararander from Afghanistan (my neighbour)
Originally posted by qararander
Why does Islam become under heavy security?
I had made a new http://www.takingitglobal.org/discuss/showthread.html?s=&threadid=5327 telling about myself that I'm a former Muslim and that I face danger in my own country and even in my country of current residence (USA), because Mohammed ordered to kill those who left Islam (its in Sahih Bukhari 4.260). So, my life is in danger (even though I've been careful about who I told about my apostacy and my opinions of Islam). It was interesting that no Muslim here answered in that thread and told me what to do now and how to keep myself safe.
Hopefully, you now understand atleast partially why Islam comes under more critique than other religions.
Adnan
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r g
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Re: The many definitions of Peace?
January 15, 2004 - 03:39 AM
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Originally posted by adnank
I'm a former Muslim and that I face danger in my own country and even in my country of current residence (USA), because Mohammed ordered to kill those who left Islam (its in Sahih Bukhari 4.260). So, my life is in danger (even though I've been careful about who I told about my apostacy and my opinions of Islam).
Such is an example of why we question the muslims’ concept of “peace”. In Islam minorities (like people of the book) are humiliated and subjugated. And dissidents like adnan are permanently silenced. So is “peace” the sole right of muslims? Do you & me mean the same thing only when muslims are in the minority?
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abdel messaoudi
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Re: The many definitions of Peace?
January 15, 2004 - 06:37 AM
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Here's an islamic definition of 'waging war'... implicitly we can distill an islamic definition for peace from this.
This is from the tafsir (commentary on the Quran) of Ibn Kathir, considered to be one of the best tafsirs available. It is his comment on verse 5:33 of the Quran:
Quran 5:33:
(YUSUFALI: )
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
Ibn Kathir's tafsir on Quran 5:33
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=13751
The Punishment of those Who Cause Mischief in the Land
Allah said next,
(The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land
'Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways. Mischief in the land refers to various types of evil.
So according to one of the most respected Quran-interpreters: if anyone opposes, contradicts or doesn't believe in Allah's/Mohammed's message that person is considered to be 'waging war' and thus is liable to be punished by torture or death-penalty by hands of the muslims? Does this mean that 'peace' in Islam is: accept Islam and you'll live in peace, but if you oppose, contradict or disbelieve Islam's message you ask for retaliation?
And what about the 'mischief'? Let's see what 'mischief' is in arabic:
Arabic transliteration of Quran 5:33
http://www.universalunity.net/quran4/005.qmt.html
005.033
Innama jazao allatheena yuhariboona Allaha warasoolahu wayasAAawna fee al-ardi fasadan an yuqattaloo aw yusallaboo aw tuqattaAAa aydeehim waarjuluhum min khilafin aw yunfaw mina al-ardi thalika lahum khizyun fee alddunya walahum fee al-akhirati AAathabun AAatheemun
YUSUFALI:
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
Mischief is 'fasad' in arabic. What does 'fasad' exactly comprises, according to islam?
GLOSSARY OF ISLAMIC TERMS
http://www.islam101.com/selections/glossaryEF.html
Fasad
Fasad, literally 'corruption', in Qur'anic terminology, means creating disorder and corruption on earth by following a path other than God's.
Islam maintains that true peace and happiness emanate only through the observance of God's commands and through making a conscious effort to see that His laws alone are implemented in every sphere of life. Fasad occurs when man violates God's laws and disobeys Him.
Fasad may therefore be partial as well as total; partial when one disregards God's law in one aspect of life while acknowledging His sovereignty in other spheres. If a society is based on the denial of God, that society is bound to be a corrupt and exploitative society - hence full of fasad.
So, 'fasad' means basically not following Allah's laws, disobeying Him, denying Him. And the (islamic) glossary says there can only be peace when one follows the laws of Allah.
Well, there we have it... islamic peace means total submission to islamic laws. Anyone who denies Allah/Mohammed, doesn't follow His/his rules, questions His/his rules, contradicts His/his rules is causing 'mischief'/'corruption' and is 'waging war' against the muslims. Anyone who does these things is thus liable to be tortured and/or put to death, according to these sources.
That is indeed a somewhat different idea of peace than most non-muslims have....
This view about islamic peace/war seems to be also present on various (state sponsored) websites of Muslim Student Organisations at U.S. Universities where they are admitting and propagating the agressive Islamic view that organizing jihad and using force against non-muslim countries that oppose islamic teachings is legitimate and even obligatory:
Here's one example:
Website of The Muslim Students Association at the University of Southern California (MSA-USC):
The duties and responsibilities of the Khalifa
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/politics/khalifa.html#duties
The Khilafa is a fard kifaya {obligatory} on the ummah.
The duties and responsibilities of the Khalifa
The Khalifa of the Muslim ummah must strive to:
...
5. Defend the rights of Muslims abroad, and to see to it that Islam can spread freely in non-Muslim lands (including the use of force).
6. Organize jihad against any non-Muslim government which prevents Muslim da'wah from entering its land.
...
So it seems there can only be (islamic) peace when non-muslims accept (in one way or another) Islam?
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abdel messaoudi
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Re: The many definitions of Peace?
January 15, 2004 - 06:53 AM
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It seems the above is also consistent with the view of www.islam-qa.com, one of the most popular islamic question & answer sites:
Question #5441: Was Islam spread by the sword?
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=5441&dgn=3
Question:
Some enemies of the religion claim that Islam was spread by the sword. What is your response to that?
Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.
Islam was spread by proof and evidence, in the case of those who listened to the message and responded to it. And it was spread by strength and the sword in the case of those who stubbornly resisted, until they had no choice and had to submit to the new reality.
And Allaah is the source of strength. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad and his family and companions, and grant them peace.
Fataawaa al-Lajnah al-Daa'imah, 12/14
(www.islam-qa.com)
recent (long) update on the same question:
Question #43087: Was Islam spread by the sword?
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=43087&dgn=3
.....
We have already stated in question no. 34830 that jihad is of two types: taking the initiative in fighting and jihad in self-defence. .....
Undoubtedly taking the initiative in fighting has a great effect in spreading Islam and bringing people into the religion of Allaah in crowds. Hence the hearts of the enemies of Islam are filled with fear of jihad.
.....
3 – When the Messenger called people to Islam, his call was accompanied by the sword, and he commanded his leaders to do likewise, so that when the people saw the serious of the Muslims in calling people to their religion, that dispelled any confusion.
.....
Islam spread by means of proof and evidence to those who listened to the message and responded to it, and it spread by means of force and the sword to those who were stubborn and arrogant, until they were overwhelmed and became no longer stubborn, and submitted to that reality.
and so on...
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abdel messaoudi
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Re: The many definitions of Peace?
January 15, 2004 - 07:01 AM
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And again quoting a respected islamic site:
(www.understanding-islam.com)
from:
An Incident related to the Life of the Prophet (pbuh)
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=1768
......
"The Qur'an tells us that Muhammad (sws) was not only a Prophet (nabi) but also a messenger (Rasu'l) of Allah.
The Qur'an tells us that when Allah sends His messenger in a people, these people are not allowed to live on Allah's earth if they reject the messenger.
It tells us that these people are given time in which to make up their minds and to present all their objections against the messenger (Rasu'l). It tells us that when the Al-knowing Allah decides that these people have been given adequate time and that they are now absolutely clear of the truthfulness of the messenger and thus are not left with any excuse for their rejection but still are persistent in their rejection then Allah directs his prophet to migrate from the area and then he destroys all those who have rejected his messenger.
The Qur'an refers to the peoples (nations of the messengers of old - Noah, Hood, Lot, Shoaib, Saaleh and Moses (pbuh)- and narrates the result of their rejection. It declares to the direct addressees of Muhammad (sws) that if they don't accept the message of Allah's messenger (Muhammad) their fate shall be no different from those nations that have gone before them. (Surah al-Qamar the whole Surah especially verse no 43-45)
In short the Qur'an says it is the unalterable law of Allah that when he sends his messenger in a people, these particular people are left with no option but to accept his message or to face the punishment of death and sometimes complete annihilation. "
"The Qur'an goes further to tell us how this punishment was implemented on the polytheists from among the direct addressees of the Prophet (sws).
It tells us that although the previous nations of the messengers of Allah were annihilated because of their rejection through (apparently) natural calamities the companions of Muhammad (sws) because Allah has given them rule in a land (Medina) shall fight the rejecters and through these believers shall Allah implement his punishment (al_Tauba 9:14-16).
It directs them that the Mushrikeen should be killed without any exception. They should only be allowed to live if they accept Islam (al-Taubah 9:5). On the other hand, it also directs them that the Jews and the Christians (because they weren't polytheists I.e. Mushrikeen) even if they don't enter the folds of Islam, they may be allowed to live if they accept to live under the Muslim rule and agree to pay the Jizyah (Al-Taubah 9:29).
Thus the Prophet (sws) sent his messenger who declared at the time of Hajj that no one from among the rejecting polytheists shall be allowed to live after the prohibited months, if he does not accept Islam.
As a result of this declaration, most of the people who previously were polytheists, accepted Islam and thus the punishment of Allah was avoided."
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Abdallah Diwan
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January 15, 2004 - 07:05 AM
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MR , no neo
Islam , comes from salam
and the firest word we learn , about islam is salamo Alikoum , which is , you pray for some one that peace come to him . this is the firest thing we learn ( i think you forgot) any way i wanted to add some thing i think the respect of cultures , so i think this is something important , cuase if you dont respect my culture i wont respect your culture , so there will never be peace between us , so i think not for me cause i dont have time to argue about proveing to you that we live in peace , but you are invited to Egypt to check up ypur self , and trust me i will not tell any one that you are an exmuslim if you are afraied to come , . any way i think every one will respect your belive . if you belive it inside you . and not act the way you do , by saiying i am an exmuslim and bla bla bla , and talking bad about islam . then i am sure you will be killed and no one will ever fined your body . as long as you dont say that and respect the muslims believes . but saing you are muslims and that is bad because off bla bla bla . then i think you dont need peace to come ( respect) . any way i have another note : i think you forgot that TIG rejiester the Dates you joined TIG ( thnx god) and i think that the three Names or 4 names ( cant remeber how many people ) any way Mmugahel, you , and adnak . Joined TIG in same dates , or maybe day and the day after . and i will fined out if you are useing same IP adress and then i will report to the TIG . I think also Hoda and Omar got you  . every one know that you are all the same guy . So good luck and if you need peace ( respect our culture) .
and I swear we will do respect you and you are welcome to our countries and working with us in our projects for youth . thats why we are hear on TIG . not to use TIG the wrong way . we are heer to builed with each others great . youth bond , not to cut it .I hope you got me .
Peac ,
I am not going to kill you my self
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Adnan
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Re: The many definitions of Peace?
January 15, 2004 - 07:22 AM
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'peace' Abdallahdiwan bhai
I dont have any other nicks on the forum and I dont think others also have any duplicate nicks.
Islam , comes from salam
well brother, its surprising that I an ex-muslim am going to educate you about Islam, but here is the defination:
The Arabic term 'islam means "submission" and itself comes from the term 'aslama, which means "to surrender, resign oneself." In Islam, the fundamental duty of each member is to submit to Allah (Arabic for "the God" and whatever Allah wants of them. A person who follows Islam is called a Muslim, and this means "one who surrenders to God."
You can confirm from your own Arabic speakers (you also speak Arabic so maybe you know already) or you can confirm from this site: http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/islam/blfaq_islam_islam.htm (thats where I pasted defination from).
As you hopefully know now, salem and aslem are 2 different Arabic words. Islam is derived from aslem, which means Submission, while salam is salem (peace). These are 2 different words, with widely different meanings. It was also enlightening for me, thanks! The next sentence in that page is incorrect and is only an opinion, but the above are facts. I'm sure Egypt is an interesting country, if I had money I would visit it.
any way i think every one will respect your belief
Mohammed did not specify that I should be killed if I talked bad about Islam. He just said "if anyone leaves Islam, kill him" (I have highlighted the Bukhari hadith). In your opinion, do you think Mohammed respected my beliefs when he said ex-Muslims should be killed?
I'm sure, you will agree with me fully that if I said that if anyone accepts Islam, kill him. If this is not good, then ordering to kill those who leave Islam, is also not good.
I am not going to kill you my self
Thank you! I'm grateful for the kindness. I wish Prophet Mohammed would have said the same, but instead he ordered to kill me:
Narrated Ikrima:
"Ali burnt some people [hypocrites] and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' " (Sahih Bukhari 4.260)
we are here to build with each others great . youth bond , not to cut it .
I fully agree with you, but there are some issues that have to be resolved first, for example, the safety of ex-Muslims like me. I would like recognized Islamic authorities to declare that the idea of killing a person who left Islam, is wrong. This way, I and other people like me can be assured of their safety and can work together with other Muslims to make the world a better place for everyone.
thanks
Adnan
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Abdallah Diwan
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Re: The many definitions of Peace?
January 15, 2004 - 08:17 AM
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thnx adnan , for the notes , so i think . this discussion was only ment to be at the difinetion of peace only . and you did mix now the diffinetion to atack islam once again . and i will keep telling you please guyes quite this way . If you are really peace making.
you should then talk about. only you dont want to get killed , not the other issues. ( to be profisional )
every thing in Islam have a reaon . actually I wana tell you something to surrender , is not the right word it is really a translation to arabic but , did you check other translations ?? islam is to put your desteny and your target in life to obay god. and I am really proude to be a Muslim . my name is Abdallah . which means . Abd : slave
Allah : is one of the god's names. any way I am too prode to be a slave of god . In name . so who ever call me he tellme : hey abdallah . it means Hey God's slave . do you think i get angree ?????
and if some one told me that i am a muslim : it means i gave all my life to the control of the one god . and we belive Abraham , Jesuse , Musas weare Muslims too . as they were humble to god . so being humble to god is not a bad thig as you think . cause he is the one who got you to life to test you . life is a big exam . if you were good . you will be awareded in the end . same with Muslims and christians. you live in the west now . and they do respect your culture. cause the countries are not based on releigious bases . but in our countries people are mostly muslims and the people them selves wants there countries to go acording to the Islamic shariaa, maybe some people or leaders changed it, for there more interests, but as terri mentioned before you dont have to be an Arab if you want to be a muslims , and true Muslims mostly live out of Arab Countries.
another thing for your reply about killing the ones who left Islam ( which i think is very wise) .
you didn't know how long does it take to kill him and the procedures and why .
in the begining Killing him , is because you go to Islam veryyyyy easy ( only a promise to god ) ( ashado ala elah ela allah wa ana mohamadan rasoul allah)
which means that you admit that there is only one god and that mohamed is his profite)
and the Islam Came in an Arab culture that do respect there promise , and it was a shame to deny your promise.
and this time you dont promise a man , you promise god.
thats why the brech of shch promise was irrespected in the Arab Culture. when you say i promise you dont even have to swear that time ( cause you will do it) .
about the proceidures : the guy who left islam , after he is arrested by the governent , he is left alone for some time , and for a long time he stay with the Islamic shcolers , to convince him of the conseicunses , and ( they must be very freinedly to him to know what is makeing him angry from Islam , there may be something he missunderstoud) and after long time tring with him if he insiste , he got kiled . Cause Islam came to Unite people and it came to all people as you may know , as any one is welcome to Islam . if you are a non muslim from the begining then you must be protected, but leaveing Islam is a sine in Islam , and people know it from the begining. any way this was also the Islam Policy , that if you are ex Muslim , and you left islam ( you will kepp advisineg people to do soo , and also not respect the Islam , and you will be geting lots of trouble , and then you will make what you said (fasad) , so if you do so, so any one could change his mined every day. today i am a muslim tommorow i am christian and tommoro i will be without religion. SO i think the policy say you must be killed , any way noo one in the street could kill you . no one , this is non islamic , and he will be acused and treated as a murderer and will be killed too . Only Islamic Government could do theis acts, any way i never saw some one completely ex islamic in my country. and all of this are based on some of my knoledge i dont know if there is other exeplanation , but i will fined out for you . any way i think if you have any foreign nationality that is not of an islamic country, i think you can go there as a US. Citezen or a UK citizen etc.. then you will be protected cause that mean you dont belonge to the Islamic country , this an advise cause i think you asked for help and what to do , i think you could also get the nationality of an European country as a refugee. or maybe thats it , so no one in the street could kill you ( as this is forbriden in islam ) even if they know you are ex Muslim, ( but pray to god if you do believe in one , or wish) that they do understand islam well , and then if some one called the police and the police came to get you ( just show him your foreign pasport) and go to your embassy and request help ?? i think this advise is the one you are looking for .
Any way wish you the best all of you , and i hope you fined what you are looking for
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M.F.Mughal
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January 15, 2004 - 08:23 AM
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Originally posted by abdallahdiwan
MR , no neo
Islam , comes from salam
and the firest word we learn , about islam is salamo Alikoum , which is , you pray for some one that peace come to him . this is the firest thing we learn ( i think you forgot) any way i wanted to add some thing i think the respect of cultures , so i think this is something important , cuase if you dont respect my culture i wont respect your culture , so there will never be peace between us , so i think not for me cause i dont have time to argue about proveing to you that we live in peace , but you are invited to Egypt to check up ypur self , and trust me i will not tell any one that you are an exmuslim if you are afraied to come , . any way i think every one will respect your belive . if you belive it inside you . and not act the way you do , by saiying i am an exmuslim and bla bla bla , and talking bad about islam . then i am sure you will be killed and no one will ever fined your body . as long as you dont say that and respect the muslims believes . but saing you are muslims and that is bad because off bla bla bla . then i think you dont need peace to come ( respect) . any way i have another note : i think you forgot that TIG rejiester the Dates you joined TIG ( thnx god) and i think that the three Names or 4 names ( cant remeber how many people ) any way Mmugahel, you , and adnak . Joined TIG in same dates , or maybe day and the day after . and i will fined out if you are useing same IP adress and then i will report to the TIG . I think also Hoda and Omar got you . every one know that you are all the same guy . So good luck and if you need peace ( respect our culture) .
and I swear we will do respect you and you are welcome to our countries and working with us in our projects for youth . thats why we are hear on TIG . not to use TIG the wrong way . we are heer to builed with each others great . youth bond , not to cut it .I hope you got me .
Peac ,
I am not going to kill you my self
Brother abdallah,
salaam
In what you stated in your post there are problems. For example, killing people for changing their religion is against universal declaration of human rights. The universal human rights declaration is wisdom of world wide humanity. Anyone believing in stuff against it cannot be good for humanity according to judgement of so many people.
Moreover, if you have the right to talk about what you believe without any fear of being murdered in cold blood why do I need to hide my beliefs to be safe? If islam did not teach such stuff, I would not have to fear for my life in muslim states or amongst muslims even in nonmuslim states. Rather than fighting this evil, you are advising me to remain quiet, is this the kind of world you want to create and live in?
Why are you worried about how many IDs a person may have, the point is, is the person making sensible contributions to the discussion in the forum or not? Let the admin worry about peoples' ids.
As for mutual respect, you are contradciting yourself ie how can I respect your beliefs if you do not respect my beliefs? By believing in killing of apostates of islam, you are clearly showing that you do not respect other peoples' belief even though you are saying that you do.
As for me, I do not respect any belief of anyone that poses any danger to me. I respect all such beliefs of everyone that benefit them themselves and at least mean no harm to me. Since islam means harm to me I therefore cannot respect islam as per your own logic. I reject such peace which is not based upon mutual respect and goodwill towards each other.
If you personally are not going to harm me, why would I personally harm you or even think about it?
Please do think about what has been said. I hope we all come together through such discussions rather than avoiding them.
Regards and all the best.
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