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Terri Willard
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Dialogue, Democracy, and Islam
January 12, 2004 - 04:07 AM
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I'n just curious if anyone else has read Irshad Manji's "The Trouble with Islam" yet? I read it over the last few days while I was home sick with the flu and found it incredibly compelling (as did my Muslim father-in-law who was the person who insisted I read it immediately so he could have more people to talk to about it).
For those of you not familiar with the book, you can get an interesting overview on Irshad's Website http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/
Born in a South Asian Muslim family in Uganda, her family moved to Canada when she was very young. As a Canadian Muslim, she has struggled to understand why and how Islam seems to stifle diversity of belief within its members and with others. The book explores how we might be able to re-discover Islam's lost tradition of independent thinking -- a tradition known as "ijtihad" (a word I had never run across until reading this book).
I underlined about half the book because I found it interesting... Does anyone know if it's available in Egypt or other parts of the world? I'd love to hear what others think of the ideas in it...
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Abdallah Diwan
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i will try to fined out
January 12, 2004 - 04:35 AM
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Hi Terri , hope you are fine now , i didn't know you felt sick. get well soon please. I will fined out hear in Egypt and tell you if i did , tell me if it available on Amazon ? is the book in English only , or it had been translated into Arabic ? please tell me more detailes about it . thanks a lot Terri
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Ansari, Omar Mansoor
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Re: Dialogue, Democracy, and Islam
January 12, 2004 - 04:46 AM
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am interested in such books, wil try to find it, if i could will discus it.
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M.F.Mughal
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Re: Dialogue, Democracy, and Islam
January 12, 2004 - 05:52 AM
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Dear takoid,
greetings and thank you very much for sharing the information.
Regards and all the best.
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Laouini Amel
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Re: Dialogue, Democracy, and Islam
January 13, 2004 - 02:29 AM
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Hi Terri,
Thank for the link. I'll try to get the book.
I Think it's will be available soon in French ;-p
I'll be back soon to discuss some issues of "the trouble with Islam".
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leticia zero
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Re: Dialogue, Democracy, and Islam
January 13, 2004 - 02:44 AM
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hey terri, thanks for the recommendation. sounds like a terriffic read. will look for it after I finish my current book which is so good so I will probably finish it quickly (one of the joys of not being able to understand the tv over here)
hope I'll soon be able to discuss it with you and you father-in-law!
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Dr.M.Mukhtar Alam
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No trouble with Islam, there is trouble with all atheistic philosphers
January 17, 2004 - 07:01 AM
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Dear Terri,
I understand that there to too much propganda about Islam,that is the path communcated by all the messengers.It is correct to have "ijtihad" (renewals) in the matters where parameters have changed.We are linving through an age that has been dominated culturlly an politically by atheistic Marxists and neo-liberals who banished communincation on the commands of God from the public life as everything else other than "peity" becomes the major determinant of leadership .
Ecologically, we need to restrain,decelerate the consumption of utilities and services based on the consumption of fossil fuel consideration theri contribution to the greenhouse emissions.In various forums , I ahve been arguing for the global adoption of prayer five times a day.
I undertand , some natural scientists has problems with the priests..We had a slew of writings against church..Now I wish to seek global unity in monotheisitc framework.
Please see first post at updates as I have organized my concepts to argue for the adoption of monotheisitic framework for global goverance ,personal identity formation and several others..I beleive AIDS,ecological crisis and all can be addressed better by practicing prayer 5 times a day and this is something , that can be easily adopted with magnificent ecological and psychological results..
http://updates.takingitglobal.org/read/Muhammad_Mukhtar_Alam
With greetings for peace and call for adoption of prayer 5 times a day by all
mukhtar
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Terri Willard
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Re: Dialogue, Democracy, and Islam
March 3, 2004 - 11:34 AM
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Well, I just got home from hearing Irshad Manji speak here in Winnipeg on the subject of "Islam, Israel and Diversity." About 400 people showed up.
While I was hoping that she would cover more of her book, she mostly focused on the chapter regarding Israel. Her main point was basically that diversity and asking questions are good things. Why are so many officials in Muslim countries seemingly afraid of both?
For me, the most interesting comments she made were around HOW to have discussions about difficult issues. It's something that xyz2002 has been pushing me on in another thread (http://www.takingitglobal.org/discuss/showthread.html?s=&threadid=6178&perpage=15&pagenumber=2)
Irshad indicated that she's found that :
a) You can defend human rights without being defensive. In dealing with direct attacks and threats, she relies on humour and/or inviting others into the conversation.
b) Sometimes tension is a good and necessary thing. She quoted from Martin luther King Jr.'s "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" about the need for tension to push people to ask questions and to grow.
During the question period, I had the chance to ask her when the book would be coming out in Arabic or other languages more common in Muslim countries so more people could discuss the ideas she is raising. She replied that her publisher in Canada (Random House) has indicated that if she cannot find an Arabic publisher for her book within 18 months, they will give her the copyright so she can get the book translated and put online for free. I followed up with her later and had a quick chat about the pros and cons of online publishing vs. print.
I'll keep you posted if I hear more....
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setar
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Re: Dialogue, Democracy, and Islam
March 8, 2004 - 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by taikod
[B]
For me, the most interesting comments she made were around HOW to have discussions about difficult issues. It's something that xyz2002 has been pushing me on in another thread (http://www.takingitglobal.org/discuss/showthread.html?s=&threadid=6178&perpage=15&pagenumber=2)
Irshad indicated that she's found that :
a) You can defend human rights without being defensive. In dealing with direct attacks and threats, she relies on humour and/or inviting others into the conversation.
b) Sometimes tension is a good and necessary thing. She quoted from Martin luther King Jr.'s "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" about the need for tension to push people to ask questions and to grow.
/B]
She was a guest in a talk show with several Muslims and all of them said they were insulted by her book. They claimed it is full of lies and is full of hate toward Muslims. (The same thing that you are avoiding!). So in anyway I believe she was not successful to have a constructive dialogue at least with other guests. May be if she was more neutral...
If you ask your questions in any way, there will be a lot of people who will complain of your questions. At least they will say your questions are pushy and have a lot more than needed tension!! You know what I mean?
But who cares?
Look how successful her book is!!
In our library there is a stock of over 200!! copies of her book "Troubles with Islam" but there is a waiting list of over 800 people!!! asking for her book.
That's all is needed. At first we should recognize there are problems and then a need for change will arise.
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Terri Willard
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Re: Dialogue, Democracy, and Islam
March 9, 2004 - 01:50 AM
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No doubt... Irshad has a very different style than I do :-)
But, I like her. Coming from inside the Muslim tradition she can ask far more pointed questions than I can. And I appreciate the fact that she doesn't back down when challenged. She tries to get people to clarify that they have different interpretations of the same texts.
For example, at the Winnipeg meeting, one of the leaders from the downtown mosque a) challenged her to accept a televised debate with him in Toronto at her convenience (hat he would pay for) and b) stated that she had little understanding of Islam since her book had so many errors in it.
Irshad replied by agreeing that she would debate him later, but that she wanted to have him state one of his objections to her book right now so that she could reply to it in front of this crowd. He tried to avoid making a reply. But, eventually, with the encouragement of the crowd, he stated that she had confused sharia with fiqh. She clearly defined each and pointedly asked him whether he though sharia was god-given and to be applied directly according to the specific words or human-created and in need of inerpretation. He insisted on he former. She clearly believes the latter.
I don't think she's alone in that.... And I appreciate her willingness to stand up and say it WITHOUT feeling the need to "throw the baby out with the bath water" and denounce Islam categorically. Her statements point out difficult areas in interpretation of Islam and challenge believers to think through the implications of their beliefs.
Ultimately, I don't believe that any religion is all good or all evil. Each one has evolved over time and had a lot of different beliefs added to and subtracted from it. The institutions, like all institutions, have also been frequently abused by those in power. The process continues today... But, a lot of religions are losing their liberal believers who are leaving in frustration. What Irshad is doing for Islam is the same thing that John Spong (http://www.mpr.org/www/books/titles/spong_newchristianity.shtml) has been doing in Christianity - pushing for a loyal internal opposition... for those who feel alienated by the conservative powers in their religious tradition to reclaim it.
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setar
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Re: Dialogue, Democracy, and Islam
March 9, 2004 - 02:26 AM
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I also like her. In addition to her style, she is really brave, especially when you see how other authors such as Professor Ali Dashti (Author of 23 years) and Dr.Kasravi have been killed by "merciful" Islamists. If you read 23 years I am sure you will also like Dashti's style.
I also liked how she managed the debate. Asking him to tell everybody on the spot. What happened to the debate? Do you know if there is any future debate on TV as he invited Irshad?
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Dialogue, Democracy, and Islam
March 10, 2004 - 02:31 AM
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Hey guys - another good read is "What Went Wrong?" - it particularly examined what happened from 1300-1800 when Islam went from the worlds most sophistocated cuture, a world leader in philosophy, arts and sciences - to falling behind Europe in these issues.
Some of it is quite simple - when Gutenberg invented the Printing Press - Islamic religious leaders, suspicious of European inventions and jealously guarding their power - was fearful of the divice and made it illegal in Arab lands for over a hundered years - Literacy exploded in the West - but in Islam it was the privledge of the elite.
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setar
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Re: Dialogue, Democracy, and Islam
March 10, 2004 - 03:43 AM
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Originally posted by luke
Hey guys - another good read is "What Went Wrong?" - it particularly examined what happened from 1300-1800 when Islam went from the worlds most sophistocated cuture, a world leader in philosophy, arts and sciences - to falling behind Europe in these issues.
Some of it is quite simple - when Gutenberg invented the Printing Press - Islamic religious leaders, suspicious of European inventions and jealously guarding their power - was fearful of the divice and made it illegal in Arab lands for over a hundered years - Literacy exploded in the West - but in Islam it was the privledge of the elite.
Luke, I really enjoyed your post! Perfect.
Who is the author? I do not want to be confused with other books with the same title.
You are absolutely right about the printing press. In our school they always told us that third world countries are being held back by Westerns. I still belive it is true, the US and UK interference in our countries and how they installed brutal regimes was and is a shame but no one told us that a major portion was our fault.
Look at the difference:
I. Europe
Printing Press built by Gutenberg in 1436, Thus, intellectual life soon was no longer the exclusive domain of church and court, and literacy became a necessity of urban existence. The printing press stoked intellectual fires at the end of the Middle Ages, helping usher in an era of enlightenment. This great cultural rebirth was inspired by widespread access to and appreciation for classical art and literature, and these translated into a renewed passion for artistic expression. Without the development of the printing press, the Renaissance may never have happened. Without inexpensive printing to make books available to a large portion of society, the son of John Shakespeare, a minor government official in rural England in the mid-1500s, may never have been inspired to write what are now recognized as some of history's greatest plays. What civilization gained from Gutenberg's invention is incalculable.
Source - http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/story039.htm
II. Islam
The classic case was the printing press, which Islam vigorously resisted. In 1485, a decree by the Ottoman sultan, Beyazid II, banned this new invention, on the grounds that it would be sacrilegious to use the Arabic language in mechanical equipment.
The Koran and Arabic were so closely entwined that the language itself demanded pious treatment, which it wasn't likely to get from printers. Furthermore, printing threatened Islamic calligraphers, who became its powerful enemies. Jewish publishers could operate in Turkey only so long as they did not use Arabic. Printing in Arabic was illegal until the first half of the 18th century, and even then it grew slowly. When Napoleon arrived in Egypt in 1798, Cairo had no presses. By then, European thinkers had been educating one another through books for more than two centuries.
Source -
http://www.robertfulford.com/Islam.html
More than 200 years Islamic countries were held back becasue of some so-called scholars (Muftis and Mullahs), and some of us still believe we should ask our questions from them!!
It really makes me sick!
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Terri Willard
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Arabic version online for FREE
October 28, 2004 - 10:25 AM
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Hi all,
I just wanted to update you... Irshad has now posted the Arabic version of her book online for free. She sent me the following email yesterday with more info (I also posted the Arabic version of the email on my updates page at http://updates.takingitglobal.org/read-comments.html?UpdateID=20240)
------------------------
This is a message for Arab youth. My name is Irshad Manji and I am a young Muslim woman. I am also the author of a book about the problems within Islam today, and how our generation can begin to solve those problems. The book has created lots of debate in Europe and North America, where it has been already been published. (I live in Toronto, Canada.)
Since the book was published, I have received many emails from young Arabs. They have asked me when the Arabic translation of the book will come out. I asked them if any Arab publisher would do this. Everybody said there is no Arab publisher with the guts to do it. But many young Arabs told me not to wait for a publisher. They said I should hire a translator and post the Arabic translation on my website, free of charge. That way, you can read the book in privacy and safety.
I have taken this advice. The first few chapters of the Arabic book are now posted on my website: www.muslim-refusenik.com. The next few chapters will be posted soon, and the final chapters will appear before the end of this year. I invite you to read the book, share it with your friends and debate it. I am not asking you to agree with me. (In fact, I am sure many of you will disagree with what I say.) But I do know that there is a deep hunger to discuss these issues with honesty. Here is our chance. Salaam to you all.
Irshad
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Ashraf
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Re: Dialogue, Democracy, and Islam
October 28, 2004 - 10:33 AM
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The Trouble with Irshad Manji
"Speaking of credibility, let’s see what Manji has to say about the Quran.
“Most Muslims treat the Koran as a document to imitate rather than interpret, suffocating our capacity to think for ourselves… as the final manifesto, it’s the ‘perfect’ scripture – not to be questioned, analyzed, or even interpreted, but simply believed.” Casting aside the thousands of books, texts, and articles written that question, analyze, and interpret the Quran, written over fourteen hundred years by Muslim scholars from around the world, Manji attempts her own amateur interpretations of what she reads in the Quran. She accuses others of literalism when reading the Quran, but attempts nothing more than the same level of literalism."
"Manji believes that she’s appealing to young Muslims everywhere with her straight-talking, candid language and style. But she is more likely to alienate Muslims with her caustic attitude and tone. By calling a chador a “condom” over her head, comparing Islam to a plane called “Air Koranistan”, making fun of suicide bombers because the seventy-two virgins they think they’re promised in heaven are actually white raisins, and writing two pages comparing Osama bin Laden to the Prophet Muhammed, Manji wants to show her readers her take-no-prisoners attitude. All she succeeds in showing them is her deep disdain and disrespect for the psychology and sensibilities of Muslims. Manji thinks that her chutzpah will win her fans amongst Muslims raised in the West, but she forgets that Muslims the world over much prefer someone who shows respect, if not deference, for the tenets of their faith and for their customs. "
Although Operation Ijtihad starts out strong, look closely and you’ll see a desire to discredit Islam, demonize Arabs, and question the authenticity of the Quran. This is nothing new – and many of Manji’s arguments are ideas are nothing but a repetition of what’s been thrown at Muslims by Zionists, atheists, fundamentalist Christians, and now Washington neoconservatives, for years and years. But for all her posturing about honesty, Manji attempts this in a dishonest way: by supporting her opinions and ideas with a series of inaccuracies, errors, and fallacies, a very poor quality of research, unbalanced writing, and sweeping generalizations about everything from the motivations of fifteenth century Mongol conquerors to the status of minorities in Pakistan in the twenty-first century.
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00004158&channel=gulberg&start=160&end=169&page=17&chapter=2&order=0
=======================
9:32 Fain would they extinguish Allah's light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
...
and an honest question to the original poster of this thread:
What is your true aim in praising a writer who slanders Islam, and who is a close friend to a writer who cursed the wives of the prophet by all the filthy names?
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