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Ha Thi Lan Anh
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jewish custom???
February 16, 2002 - 08:18 AM
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Okie, i m a non religion but i have such a great interest in religions and bunches of questions.
I just knew something about Jewish.
When we were in a cafe yesterday, my friend who is a Jewish told me a custom : if u r a jewish male when you are a 8 days baby you will have to go a thru a custom in which people will cut a little skin of the baby's dick.
I was pretty shocked. It reminds me of a custom in Africa when they cut the women thing and it is very much cruel.
But my friend said it is not paintful at all and just a little skin and there is an explaination for it related to Jewish GOD. But it was late at night and we could not continue our chat and the question is still there for me.
So any Jewish out there can answer 2 things :
1. Where the custom comes from?/ the story of it.
2. IS it really safe to do thats religious custom?
3. Do All jewish male int he world go through that custom?
Waiting for answers/comments.. Thanks! 
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Robert Margolis
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Circumcision (explicit terms in this one)
February 16, 2002 - 03:11 AM
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Angel -
The female circumcision is different in that the removal of the clittoris (and sometimes part of the labia) results in pain during the first intercourse. Male circumcision is only the removal of the foreskin. While some sensation is lost, the remainder of male sexual function is maintained. Female circumcision appears to be solely for the control of women by men.
Jewish tradition is that circumcision is asked of Abraham by God (in the Torah God asks Abraham and the males to be circumcized).
I am not a historian, however the ancient Egyptians did practice male circumcision as did other middle eastern peoples. My guess is that the practice was picked up through association with the various peoples in the region.
One other interesting fact, rates of penile cancer in circumcized men are many times lower than uncircumcized.
As for your other questions, yes all Jewish boys are circumcized at eight days of age unless sickness of child warrants a postponement. While there is some controversy, the procedure has generally been safe (especially in the west with modern tools to prevent infection).
I am sure others will have more detail on this one.
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Martin Kuplens-Ewart
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More on that
February 16, 2002 - 04:43 AM
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Thanks for the intro, rob... i was wondering who was going to step up to the plate for that. :P
Anyway... male circumcision makes sense in the cultural setting of the pre-roman [not to suggest that romans fixed stuff... just an approx. timeframe] middle-east. Remember that the israelites at the time, as well as many of the other tribes and people that lived in those areas at the time were largely migrant, living in desertified areas , and having to ensure that any water was conserved.
Step out to slight hygene issue: circumcision largely removes many health/hygene issues found with uncircumcised men... build-up of secretions, etc... infections... and thus reduces the amount of time needed for cleaning... and also reduces the amount of water needed for that task.
So, as you can see, with water being precious, anything that would reduce the amount of water that would need to be 'wasted'...
...Interestingly enough, dietary laws are also thought to originate from similar aspects of daily life in the time, especially ones concerning pork. Cooking over what would have been a rather small camp fire, the people would not have been able to ensure that the meat was cooked consistently at a high enough temperature to be safe to eat. Presumably a relatively large number of deaths were linked to poorly cooked pork, or just pork itself, and theology was called in to help convince the populace that pork was 'unclean' - potentially life-threatening in fact!
This also explains why these two examples are phenomena found chiefly in highly desertified regions of the world - other parts had the access to cooking fuel and water to ensure that such preventative measures were not necessary.
Hth...
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Ha Thi Lan Anh
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Re: jewish custom???
February 17, 2002 - 07:05 AM
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Rob :
Circumcision! thanks for the word...was trying to find it.
Torah : is that a kind of bible of the JEwish?
rates of penile cancer in circumcized men are many times lower than uncircumcized..all Jewish boys are circumcized at eight days of age unless sickness of child warrants ... While some sensation is lost, the remainder of male sexual function is maintained..
Those are interesting info and what i really hoped to hear. i m relieved
Btw do you know anything else about the woman circumcision. Where did it start(which area of Africa?)
Martin :
While rob gave me an explaintion from religion aspect it is interesting to hear the scientific aspect as well.
So a question pop up in my head:
Do the Jewish have this circumcision thing before they move to the middle east or after?
Do the Muslin people have such circumcision custom?
As i knwo the Jewish people were not originally from Middle East. They came from somewhere called Mesapotania to the Israel palestine area today. Only in 1947 Palestine is devided into 2 independent coutnries (israel 56%area) and Arab Palestine(43%).. which means at the time there were Jewish there were Arabic people too. So if it is for
" reduces the amount of time needed for cleaning... and also reduces the amount of water needed for that task.."
then the Palestine people would have /would learnt to adopt the same custom too eh?
I think religion aspect make more sense to me here ..
but if is really for the water reason it is interesting!! ...
Btw, how many kind of Jewish are there in Judaism?
(i mean like in Muslim they have different kinds (sunni is one for example)...
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Robert Margolis
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A little more
February 17, 2002 - 09:42 AM
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Let's see... Martin83 explained most of it.
The Torah is the first five books in the bible. There are actually many difeernt subsects of Judaism just as there are in Christianity and Islam. My understanding is that Islam supports male circumcision (NOT female). Female circumcision is a custom of Northern Africa predating Islam.
As far as the doctors and circumcision, the pediatricians do not like it; the urologists are in favor. Nowadays many hospitals use a topical anaesthetic. The practice has become more controversial recently. We will see how things develop.
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Martin Kuplens-Ewart
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Bit more info and thought
February 17, 2002 - 11:03 AM
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As i knwo the Jewish people were not originally from Middle East. They came from somewhere called Mesapotania to the Israel palestine area today.
What was mesopotamia many millenia ago is today part of Iraq. It was a very advanced civilisation, with advanced concepts of disease and medical care, including surgery, among many other areas of knowledge. Mesopotamian myths, including creation stories, have been found echoed in other cultures, including the Latvian "Dainas". [Point of reference: Latvia is in the north of europe... Think sweden, and head east about 100 KM across the north sea.
Only in 1947 Palestine is devided into 2 independent coutnries (israel 56%area) and Arab Palestine(43%).. which means at the time there were Jewish there were Arabic people too.
People at the time of which i'm talking of - thousands of years ago - were, as i mentioned before, nomadic. As such, national boundaries have been quite hard to define, unless a civilisation settles down and establishes them. There has, therefore, always been a large mix of cultures represented in the israeli/palestinian ban [read the bible if you want some accounts of wars that were fought, and the variety of peoples who wanted that part of the middle east!]. "Israel" as we know it today has historically been a nation of tribes, with tribal lands grouped together into a central governing body. [12 sons of jacob] - In fact, at several points in time, "Israel" covered a much smaller area due to assorted conflicts within the tribal system.
Btw, how many kind of Jewish are there in Judaism? (i mean like in Muslim they have different kinds (sunni is one for example)
Not being completely educated in judaism, i can only point out the three major groups: Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox. Someone else will have to verify that info, and expand.
[/B][/QUOTE]
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Ha Thi Lan Anh
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Re: jewish custom???
February 18, 2002 - 11:43 AM
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Emeline :
True i too do not support circumcision. And if i were a mom i would not let my son experience it. It sounds quite scary and dangerous.
But on the other hand, it would be good to know the root of such a religious custom. And when it comes to religion there are many things that we from other or non religion can not understand fully. But as far as i know , the Jewish circumcision is not anti-human right like the African custom. I talked with my Jewish the other day and i told him that it would be dangerous for the baby to have circumcision. And he answered that it would be even worse cuz the Jewish baby would feel guilty if later he grew up and found out he did not go through the religious custom.So it would be sort of spiritual pain. and it hurts too.
I hope that there have been scientific research on effects of such circumcisions. For the African one it has been quite clear that it is dangerous and there have been women who died becuz of it. But what about Jewish one? Any information on that?
I cant say this is traumatic, barbaric for the Jewish people because as an outsider i dont know how it is like for them.There are many eastern culture,religious customs that western people might find strange,difficult etc but for us it is normal and something we cant live without..What i mean is when it comes to religion it is so sensitive and complex.
But one question that has poped up in my mind is that :
Does it mean all babies born in Jewish families/communities will have to become Jewish later ?
because they went through a Jewish religious custom when they are just 8 days ..I think they may change their religion if they want but since you are born you are brought through religious customs like that it seems to be quite sure that you will be so much influenced by that religion later on rite?
In Vietnam our main religion is Buddahism. But we can decide to be a buddist or not even we live in a buddahism community. So even my granparents and aunts are Buddists, my father and i are not buddists at all.
Martin And Rob :
thanks for the information! You guys know SO MUCH!! ..
And YEs hope to have more clarification adn expand..
plus some noise from JEwish...
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Robert Margolis
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Medical Studies Inconclusive
February 19, 2002 - 08:14 AM
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Angel -
As I indicated earlier, the pediatricians do not like it, but the urologists do. The consensus of studies I read is that risks and rewards are in balance (i.e., risks are small, benefits are small). With modern hospitals and topical anaestetics, the procedure is safer and less painful than in the past.
As far as leaving Judaism, once born Jewish, you are considered Jewish even if you change religion. The nearest analogy is Hinduism, where one's caste is determined by birth. If one's mother is Jewish, then the child is Jewish.
Also, remember that Islam does this too. Be interested to hear from Muslims on this.
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Ha Thi Lan Anh
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Re: jewish custom???
February 21, 2002 - 06:29 AM
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Also, remember that Islam does this too. Be interested to hear from Muslims on this.
---
U said Islam do support this.. my question : do they have the same or similar religous custum?
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Robert Margolis
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Re: jewish custom???
February 21, 2002 - 08:05 AM
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Islam shares some of the customs and ideas of the previous two montheistic systems. They consider Moses and Jesus to be prophets and Abraham as a Patriach. In addition, Islam has rules forbibiding the consumption of pork and special rules on the slaughtering of animals for food (Halal meat)similar to Kosher meat in Judaism.
Again, it would be interesting to get some Muslim perspective on this.
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vivek
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Re: jewish custom???
February 22, 2002 - 12:33 PM
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well i donno if this is for good or for bad
but if we start pointing fingers at other religions and their practices, we only end up in a hung argument and hot heads.
stop this thread.
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Ha Thi Lan Anh
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Re: jewish custom???
February 22, 2002 - 12:47 PM
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vivek so had to type it again ..
anyway as i said we are not pointing fingers at other religions.. we or at least i want to learn about about religions.. and you can not learn without asking,sharing thoughts and listening to different views rite?.... this is not a debate discussion.. this is more like a sharing one..and i think all tiggers are open minded enought to be receptive and respectful to different religions from their own.. so i would love to continue this interesting thread .. and love to listen to more info, thoughts from you all... i m learning and sharing.. and enjoy..
for a more beautiful world..
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vivek
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Re: jewish custom???
February 23, 2002 - 02:46 AM
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okay.... inquisitive abt other religions and customs...
well female circumsision had originated in africa. some where in somalia.
really cruel thing coz they do it at age around 5-8.
painful and many gals die of bleeding and infection.
same way, male circumcission in muslims.
personally... i feel its a bad practice.
donno why they do it.
dont suppose that increases their potency or something.
cant think of anything logical.
but... go to talk abt it to a muslim.... and the guy will pounce upon you.
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Arabhi N.
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Re: jewish custom???
February 23, 2002 - 04:22 AM
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K i don't mean to be rude but Vivek I think you should really lay off. You seem to be against it yet you just in your last reply gave info on something you were telling everyone to stop writing about. Then you end off with telling us the reaction of someone who haas had this done to them. So in a way I think that muslim man would jump all over you...
Think about what your saying...
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vivek
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Re: jewish custom???
February 24, 2002 - 02:58 AM
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sorry man,
not much of a thinker.
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