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melissy
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Capital Punishment - dead wrong
December 11, 2003 - 06:48 AM
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I am currently working on a lovely 12 page essay for my Law class about Capital Punishment. Personally I totally disagree with the whole idea of the death penalty. How does killing another person prove anything, or that killing is even wrong? Since I have to research both sides of the issue I felt the boards would be a great place to ask youth for their opinions and insight and possibly retrieve some helpful websites too!
any help would be fantastic!
cheerio
xo missa
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Capital Punishment - dead wrong
December 11, 2003 - 07:20 AM
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It is not about proving anything, I have already had this arguement countless times here so perhapes you would be best served simply looking back at other threads.
Try to imagine for a moment that your child has been kidnapped, rapped and stabbed left to bleed to death in the cold - as happened recently to a girl in North Dakota - what would you consider justice? Would you be concerned with proving anything? would all the cerebral, academic arguements in the world mean anything to you?
If someone did that to my kid sister they had better pray the cops find them before I do.
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Matt Wolpert
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Re: Capital Punishment - dead wrong
December 11, 2003 - 07:48 AM
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I am a supporter of the death penalty in theory. Couldn't agree with Luke more...if someone killed or raped a member of my family, I would flip the switch myself, and so I can completely sympathize with a family who wants the murderer of their loved one killed.
It's not about two wrongs don't make a right, because killing an evil person is not wrong. If a rabid dog goes after someone, they put it down. It's the same thing.
Having said that, the legal system in America is seriously screwed to hell. Look at Illinois, where the governor had to call a moratorium on the death penalty because so many inmates were being proved innocent! Which is worse, to let ten guilty men go free, or to kill one innocent man?
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melissy
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Re: Capital Punishment - dead wrong
December 11, 2003 - 08:28 AM
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I repsect both of your views, and understand how you can put yourself in the victims shoes. Think about this for a second, how would you feel if you where a family member of someone who was wrongfully accused and then sentenced to death and then died because of a poor justice system? How can you justify killing another person? Is it fair?
"It's not about two wrongs don't make a right, because killing an evil person is not wrong. If a rabid dog goes after someone, they put it down. It's the same thing."
Animals aren't human. They don't know right from wrong and they don't live in a society that teaches them any morals. But then again maybe we are turning to be like animals, our jails are zoos now aren't they? Capital punishment seems like bedlam to me.
[I'm not trying to offend anyone it's I just don't see how Capital Punishment works, what does it solve?]
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Capital Punishment - dead wrong
December 11, 2003 - 08:59 AM
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It solves the problem of that persons existence.
Obviously this is why Trapper said he agrees with it in theory - because the practical application is a mess. The problem is that court appointed attorneys are usually unqualified to defend in capital cases.
But - Lets just take the Dru Shadeen (can't spell it) case an an example - this sexual preditor Alfonso is flat guilty - they found her blood in the back seat of his car, they found her blood on the floor of his garage, they found her blood on the blade of a knife in his trunk. The found the sheath to that knife next to her car. The guy is obviously guilty. This is the third time he has tried to do this and the first time he has succeded in actually murdering someone.
I think he should be put to death. I think he deserves a taste of the fate to which he condemned his victims. It is not about proving or solving any philosophical what have you. Alfonso is an animal. I think if you met him in that parking lot - if it was you being raped in the back of his car - you would agree that the guys an animal.
My question is - what do you consider justice in this case? What should be done with Alfonso? Life in prison? What's the point? You can call prisons zoos - but some people need to be locked up. I'm sure you agree that releasing him back out into society is not an option at this point.
Jails are an unfortunate consequence of the dangerous reality we live in.
but with him the question becomes life in prison or death. I think he has earned execution.
Again - what it will solve is the problem of his existence.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Capital Punishment - dead wrong
December 11, 2003 - 09:04 AM
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Another quick point - you ask how I can justify killing another - well if it was 1944 and I found a gun in my hand and Hitler in my sights I would pull the trigger without hesitation.
Would you have killed Hitler if you had the chance in 44' or what if it was earlier - what if it was 39' and you could have prevented all that suffering? Would you feel justified in taking out Hitler - I would.
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Tan
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The Complex Question of State Sanctioned Executions
December 13, 2003 - 08:45 AM
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This is obviously a complex issue - much more so than it usually portrayed. It cuts across all sorts of boundaries - for instance, there are victims/victims families that oppose capital punishment and conservatives who oppose it simply because it believes such a power is danger in the hands of the State.
My personal opinion is that the savage situation in many of our prisons and the institution and application of capital punishment in general is much more a symptom of our violent culture than anything else. I am opposed primarily on the grounds that I do not trust its' application in the hands of just about anyone, much less governments - there is something profoundly disturbing about the pre-meditated application of death in the "hands" of any number of government officials and prison authorities, each with their own compartmentalized jobs so that no one person ever has to understand the process.
Obviously it is hard to predit ones' behavior in a traumatic situation, but I have spent a lot of time thinking about it (and have had some experiences confirm) that I would not choose to put another link in the chain of death, even in the face of the great suffering or death of a loved one. I absolutely do not support the current state of most prisons, though I do realize that we will need places to put those who do violence to others into the foreseeable future. I support the idea of life imprisonment and reject the idea that a death sentence is more of a "punishment" than life imprisonment (and it's not even cheaper). When you're dead you're dead. You don't have to think about what you've done anymore. Probably some people are "insane" (I realize the definition of this word can be problematic) enough that they would feel no remorse or anguish no matter how much time they had - but I would guess that most people do not fit into that category.
I'll leave it to others to provide resources for arguments and organizations for and against, but I would like to offer a link to an area I know more about - the economic/political forces woven into the system of crime and punishment in the U.S. - http://www.americanradioworks.org/features/corrections/index.html
There are some other links on the site that discuss aspects of criminal justice, none of which I've read yet -
http://www.americanradioworks.org/features/deadlydecisions/index.html
http://www.americanradioworks.org/features/mentally_ill/
The fact is, most criminals are not Charles Manson - even most criminals sentenced to death. Thus it would behoove us to make the discussion much broader than "If it were my sister.." And while I find theoretical discussions interesting (Hiter, et. all), I prefer to base my moral compass on the present...the real-life opportunities I have now to change and interact with the world. This paragraph from http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/angel/procon/greenbergarticle.html
sums up my views about this debate:
"Death penalty proponents have assumed a system of capital punishment that simply does not exist: a system in which the penalty is inflicted on the most reprehensible criminals and meted out frequently enough both to deter and to perform the moral and utilitarian function ascribed to retribution. Explicitly or implicitly, they assume a system in which certainly the worst criminals, Charles Manson or a putative killer of one's parent or child, for example, are executed in an even-handed manner. But this idealized system is not the American system of capital punishment...Indeed, the reality of American capital punishment is quite to the contrary. Since at least 1967, the death penalty has been inflicted only rarely, erratically, and often upon the least odious killers, while many of the most heinous criminals have escaped execution. Moreover, it has been employed almost exclusively in a few formerly slave-holding states, and there it has been used almost exclusively against killers of whites, not blacks, and never against white killers of blacks. This is the American system of capital punishment. It is this system, not some idealized one, that must be defended in any national debate on the death penalty."
Respectfully,
PL
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melissy
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Re: Capital Punishment - dead wrong
December 13, 2003 - 11:19 AM
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I guess I've never thought about execution in that sense. It's hard to understand it fully when it doesn't happen in my backyard. No doubt there are animals out there, and I can't disagree about Hitler. I'm just concerned with the fact that everyday innocent people are being killed. There is no doubt in my mind that the application of it, is a total mess.
thanks for the information,
Missa
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Abby
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Re: Capital Punishment - dead wrong
December 14, 2003 - 07:45 AM
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Do you know how much it costs to house an inmate in a federal prison? $24,000 a year. Many people are in jail for bogus reasons anyways. I fully believe in the Death Penalty. It's been around for years and years. It's just known that people pay for what they do. As for the people wrongfully accused, All I've got to say is "sorry". Would you rather let killers go free and live then to MAKE them realize what they did was wrong. Usually, when a person commits a crime, they do it again. I don't think their life should be sparred, because obviously they didn't spare their victims life. The government in the United States defiently needs some revision. It's been a verrrry long time since it was created. Times have changed. It's not so simple to just kill someone anymore.
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asdf
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Re: Capital Punishment - dead wrong
December 14, 2003 - 09:35 AM
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I think the heart of this debate goes back to the question of what state would we like to live in? Indeed by extention, what kind of world?
So far as to the question of violence, I think there is an important distinction between state-sponsored violence and individual violence, similarily as there is a distiction between people's actions and those actions ideal in consideration of the situation.
To illustrate, anyone might typically punch someone who's trying to steal, say, your bicycle. However, such is not permitted in our legally-grounded society and an expectation is placed upon the parties involved to act in ideal fashion - don't steal and don't react with force. People remain free to act as they choose, but there are always consequences which aren't to be avoided. In this instance the thief and physical agressor would both face charges, albeit different ones.
Our society, evolved through intellectual tradition and (arguably) idealism, exists as it does in this regard because we recognize that individual whimsical actions cannot be tolerated in all instances and a central distinction between individual violence and state violence allows that only state-sponsored violence is legally justified.
In fewer words, as a society we must continue to aspire toward greater practices and toward idealism in our practices, despite our individual shortcomings. This is why the rational legal justice system reigns supreme. A continued death penalty I believe is counter-intuitive to this. It fails to make sense, to me anyway after much thought, that a penalty of death fits this higher practice of justice. Why not simply publicly execute people as is the norm in Saudi Arabia? What greater deterrent, greater justice than this?
Back to state violence - a necessary distinction between individual violence and state violence pervades our culture.
Whereas any one individual might take it upon him/herself to execute someone, even Hitler to follow a recurring example, this person should still be held accountable to laws affecting every citizen, however fantastic the outcome (maybe a little reconciliation between the circumstance and standard justice, but the principle and integrity of justice should still stand).
It would furthermore be entirely inappropriate for the state to sanction or legitimize such violence in in any instance. Such is the case with the death penalty, but if a functional goal of society is to maintain humanity's idealism in face of individual threat, then any penalty of death certainly contravenes this logic.
I'm sorry this is crude logic but I had a point throughout this before I was interrupted in my thought. I hope you got the gist of it.
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Alena
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again my 2 cents
December 21, 2003 - 05:18 AM
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I believe that before abolishing the death penalty the society itself should become more conscious. Most countries are just not ready for that. When people don’t understand that they are doing a crime or when they’re just bastards who like that style of life, there should be sth that could stop them. And that something is their own fear. Fear of death.
In Russia death penalty was abolished. The most repeated arguments for that were:
1. nobody has a right to take someone’s else life away;
2. it’s important that the criminals know they won’t escape from the punishment and spending the whole life in jail is not less awful than death.
After some time has passed there’s an opinion that some exceptions should be made. It mostly concerns to those who arrange terror in Russia.
What I want to say is that Russia was not ready to such a change. And it’s not the only one.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Capital Punishment - dead wrong
December 22, 2003 - 01:40 AM
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Yes - but Justice is an ideal - not simply a practice - it is an ideal against which all of our practices in law are judged.
You cannot abandon the ideal of justice in the courts simply because the practice is faulty - rather you work on the process.
We are not talking about running a company where practicality is the only consideration - we are talking about Justice with a capital J.
As to the socialogy point - there is nothing abritrary about the death penalty - this is not a government arbitrarily dealing death - this is the execution of those convicted by a jury of their peers to a capital offense.
I would not weaken the Courts by taking an option away from them.
Think of this - when the police have captured a guilty criminal, and he is tied to an even larger criminal they have yet to catch. We can say to this terrorist, or killer - that we will not seek the maximem penelty in his case - so long as he provides information which will lead to the bigger criminal.
I am not advocating the death penalty be liberally applied - I simply think it should be an option for law enforcement, as a barganing chip, or for the victims families - I think if the victims of the crime want to see lethal justice it is their right as the injured party.
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Ann Waller
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Re: Capital Punishment - dead wrong
December 22, 2003 - 11:28 AM
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Hi Messy,
Some argue that capital punishment protects the innocent, promotes justice, and deters serious crime. Others insist that it is immoral—a way of responding to violence with more violence and far inferior to the nobler task of rehabilitating criminals, helping them to become useful members of society.
In the political arena in the United States, this debate is especially intense, and religious leaders have not hesitated to get involved. You may wonder, though, ‘Does the Bible have anything to say on the subject of capital punishment?’ In fact, it does.
Shortly after the Flood of Noah’s day, Jehovah God affirmed the preciousness of human life and then stated: “Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed.”Genesis 9:6 Of course, this was not an open license for revenge. Rather, it meant that duly constituted human authorities would thenceforth be allowed to execute those who took the lives of others.
In ancient Israel the Law that God transmitted through Moses stipulated the death penalty for certain serious offenses. Leviticus 18:29 However, the Law also provided for impartial judging, eyewitness testimony, and curbs against corruption. Leviticus 19:15; Deuteronomy 16:18-20; 19:15 The judges were to be devout men and were held accountable to God himself! Deuteronomy 1:16, 17; 2 Chronicles 19:6-10 Thus there were safeguards against abuses of the death penalty.
Today no government on this earth truly represents divine justice as ancient Israel did. But governments do in many ways act as God’s ‘ministers,’ or agents, in that they preserve a measure of order and stability and provide needed public services. The apostle Paul reminded Christians to be obedient to these “superior authorities” and then added: “If you are doing what is bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it [the government] bears the sword; for it is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad.”—Romans 13:1-4.
“The sword” Paul mentioned symbolizes the government’s right to punish criminals—even with death. Christians respect that right, but should they seek to have a say in how it is exercised?
Human governments have certainly wielded “the sword” for the sake of justice many times. But it must be admitted that they have also been guilty of misusing it. Ecclesiastes 8:9 The government of ancient Rome was guilty of wielding “the sword” of judicial execution against innocent servants of God. John the Baptizer, James, and even Jesus Christ were among its victims.—Matthew 14:8-11; Mark 15:15; Acts 12:1, 2.
In modern times something similar has happened. Innocent servants of Jehovah have been executed in various countries—by firing squad, by guillotine, by hanging, by gas chamber—all of it “legally” carried out by governments trying to suppress Christianity. All powers that abuse their authority will render an account to God. What terrible bloodguilt they bear!—Revelation 6:9, 10.
True Christians shudder at the thought of bearing bloodguilt before Jehovah God. Thus, while they respect a government’s right to wield “the sword,” they are keenly aware of how it has been misused. It has served as a tool for persecution and has also at times been wielded with prejudicial harshness against some and inappropriate leniency toward others. So how do Christians react to the debate over capital punishment? Do they get involved and push for change?
Unlike those clergymen mentioned at the outset, true Christians try to keep in mind an important principle: Jesus Christ told his followers to be “no part of the world.”—John 15:19; 17:16.
Can a Christian obey that injunction and still join the debate over the death penalty? Evidently not. This is, after all, a social and political issue. In the United States, candidates for political office commonly use their stand on the death penalty—whether for or against—as an important plank in their campaign platform. They debate the subject ardently and use the emotional intensity that this subject usually provokes as a lever to sway voters to their cause.
Perhaps the question for a Christian to ponder is this: Would Jesus have involved himself in the controversy over how this world’s governments wield “the sword”? Remember, when his countrymen tried to get him involved in politics, Jesus “withdrew again into the mountain all alone.” John 6:15 It seems far more likely, then, that he would have left this matter where God put it—in the hands of the governments.
Likewise today, one would expect Christians to be careful not to jump into arguments on this subject. They would recognize the right of governments to do as they wish. But as Christian ministers who are no part of the world, they would neither avow support for capital punishment nor promote its abolition.
Rather, they keep in mind the words of Ecclesiastes 8:4: “The word of the king is the power of control; and who may say to him: ‘What are you doing?’” Yes, the world’s ‘kings,’ or political rulers, have been granted the power to carry out their own will. No Christian has the authority to call them to task. But Jehovah can. And he will. The Bible allows us to look forward to the day when God will bring about final justice for every crime.
Thank You,
DirectLady
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Choo Zheng Xi
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Re: Capital Punishment - dead wrong
December 22, 2003 - 12:13 PM
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My opposition to the death penalty is based on ideology, practice and religion. Religiously, i'm not going to proselytise, so the main issue i'll be dealing with are those of the principle of the death penalty and its practice.
The fact that, as many members of this forum point out, the death penalty is a mess in practice undermines the nature of its justness: we cannot ever discuss principles in a vacuum, all of these have to be tied down to a practical operational reality. Otherwise, we might as well be debating whether or not to send men to the moon in bathtubs. In principle, sounds like a great adventure, but practically, its unworkable.
Similarly, with the death penalty, my view is that as long as men continue to err (i.e. ad infinitum), then we cannot risk the lives of possible innocents. A famous judge (I forget whom) said that better a dozen guilty men be set free, than one innocent should die.
The argument that it costs money to keep them in prison is, frankly, disgusting. Utilising this line of logic, we should find the most cost effective ways of killing the most number of prisoners. Possibly throwing them off cliffs. How can we say that $24000 is too much to pay to keep a possibly innocent man alive? How can we put a dollars and cents value on humanity?
Now even if we discuss the death penalty in purely philosophical terms, to remove the life of a person shows a disregard for the sanctity of life. It is precisely this sanctity that causes us to abhor murderers, but killing them would cheapen the value of life.
Furthermore, I know social psychologists who have pointed to the death penalty as a factor for social violence. This is because a society that takes away the lives of people arbitratily will look hypocritical in telling its citizens to value life: the message the state is sending is that the only rule of thumb is "an eye for an eye".
The evidence seems to bear this out: violent crime rates in Texas are ridiculously higher than the random selection of ANY 12 countries in Europe: thats ONE state versus 12 COUNTRIES. Of course correalation does not equate causation, but i'm not doing my thesis on this chatroom =)
I'll be back with more awful examples of the death penalty gone awfully wrong later.
Zheng
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Oloka Obbo Odongo
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Re: Capital Punishment - dead wrong
January 4, 2004 - 08:18 AM
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LUKE'
Let us not just take death as an answer to capital offence, we should be more objective and deeply analys the extent to which death can achieve justice in society. Human resource is more needed to society than death and if we continue killing then development retards, it will creat confusion and hatred but we should learn to apply true forgiveness, i think if jesus didnot for give those who killed him then we wouldn't be in exsistence.Man has no right ot take away life but people do it in ignorance!
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