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adam
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Kyoto Protocol
December 3, 2003 - 08:04 AM
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United States of America has empowered herself as a guardian of SOME nations for the sake of humanity and freedom. We do appreciate(!) well-performed initiatives and efforts which have been carried out by the US authorites.
Well, we would also be glad to see the same sensetivity on global warming issue. USA has been insisting on not signing "Kyoto Protocol" which has vital importance to stop global warming. America! Would your excellency mind to perform the same sensetivity on this issue for the sake of freeing NATURE!?!
"The US refused to sign the treaty, arguing that its economic interests would be threatened [BBC]. The US also opposed the Bonn refinement of Kyoto because of the cost to US business of Kyoto's prescriptions on the reduction of environmentally harmful emissions which contribute to climate change." http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/pollution.html
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Ha Thi Lan Anh
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Re: Kyoto Protocol
December 3, 2003 - 10:53 AM
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in my class today, i just heard that Russia is now saying they are not gonna involved in Kyoto any more either. that will push the coaliation supporting the protocal into an even weaker postion. what do people think of that?
and also is there any better solution than the Kyoto Protocal? because obviously, the kyoto protocal is not the best solution.
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Ha Thi Lan Anh
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Re: Kyoto Protocol
December 4, 2003 - 09:09 AM
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i dont think kyoto is the best solution because apparently countries and big corps can pay some $$ to buy pollution credits so in a sense its just a transfer of pollution from one's roof to another. and in the end of the day the hole in the ozone layer still gets bigger, and icbergs keep on cracking no matter pollution's coming from which roof.
probably what we desparately need is a new generation of politicians with stronger wills toward envinronment. the question is how and when that happens? will that be too late by then? duh,sorry,im not in a very postivie mood :s =0)
ops i cant think of a better solution for kyoto yet but it still seems to be not the best solution to me.
however i agree it can help slow down the speed of kissing our clean air good bye.
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Hussein Macarambon
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Re: Kyoto Protocol
December 4, 2003 - 12:26 PM
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I believe Kyoto Protocol's the best solution right now unless countries are going to make compromises. If not, then maybe we can just kiss our 'clean air' goodbye.
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Hussein Macarambon
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Re: Kyoto Protocol
December 5, 2003 - 03:52 AM
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To Angel, please read the entirety of the protocol before concluding that it does not make a good solution to our present climate problems:
Article 2 of the Kyoto Protocol states the following:
1. Each Party included in Annex I, in achieving its quantified emission limitation and reduction commitments under Article 3, in order to promote sustainable development, shall:
(a) Implement and/or further elaborate policies and measures in accordance with its national circumstances, such as:
(i) Enhancement of energy efficiency in relevant sectors of the national economy;
(ii) Protection and enhancement of sinks and reservoirs of greenhouse gases not controlled by the Montreal Protocol, taking into account its commitments under relevant international environmental agreements; promotion of sustainable forest management practices, afforestation and reforestation;
(iii) Promotion of sustainable forms of agriculture in light of climate change considerations;
(iv) Research on, and promotion, development and increased use of, new and renewable forms of energy, of carbon dioxide sequestration technologies and of advanced and innovative environmentally sound technologies;
(v) Progressive reduction or phasing out of market imperfections, fiscal incentives, tax and duty exemptions and subsidies in all greenhouse gas emitting sectors that run counter to the objective of the Convention and application of market instruments;
(vi) Encouragement of appropriate reforms in relevant sectors aimed at promoting policies and measures which limit or reduce emissions of greenhouse gases not controlled by the Montreal Protocol;
(vii) Measures to limit and/or reduce emissions of greenhouse gases not controlled by the Montreal Protocol in the transport sector;
(viii) Limitation and/or reduction of methane emissions through recovery and use in waste management, as well as in the production, transport and distribution of energy;
(b) Cooperate with other such Parties to enhance the individual and combined effectiveness of their policies and measures adopted under this Article, pursuant to Article 4, paragraph 2(e)(i), of the Convention. To this end, these Parties shall take steps to share their experience and exchange information on such policies and measures, including developing ways of improving their comparability, transparency and effectiveness. The Conference of the Parties serving as the meeting of the Parties to this Protocol shall, at its first session or as soon as practicable thereafter, consider ways to facilitate such cooperation, taking into account all relevant information.
2. The Parties included in Annex I shall pursue limitation or reduction of emissions of greenhouse gases not controlled by the Montreal Protocol from aviation and marine bunker fuels, working through the International Civil Aviation Organization and the International Maritime Organization, respectively.
3. The Parties included in Annex I shall strive to implement policies and measures under this Article in such a way as to minimize adverse effects, including the adverse effects of climate change, effects on international trade, and social, environmental and economic impacts on other Parties, especially developing country Parties and in particular those identified in Article 4, paragraphs 8 and 9, of the Convention, taking into account Article 3 of the Convention. The Conference of the Parties serving as the meeting of the Parties to this Protocol may take further action, as appropriate, to promote the implementation of the provisions of this paragraph.
4. The Conference of the Parties serving as the meeting of the Parties to this Protocol, if it decides that it would be beneficial to coordinate any of the policies and measures in paragraph 1(a) above, taking into account different national circumstances and potential effects, shall consider ways and means to elaborate the coordination of such policies and measures.
--http://unfccc.int/resource/docs/convkp/kpeng.html
I think it"s not fair to say that the KP wont work only because youre not in a 'very positive mood.' And your proposal which reads: "probably what we desparately need is a new generation of politicians with stronger wills toward envinronment."-- is actually the problem. Too much procrastination can be very destructive sometimes especially when were talking about the survival of the planet and its inhabitants. The KP needs to be ratified soon, otherwise your talk of another arguable solution may be just another "WOLF!!"
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Ha Thi Lan Anh
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Re: Kyoto Protocol
December 5, 2003 - 11:11 AM
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duh
=P
Hey Hussein theres a misunderstanding here.
I am wondering where in my post you found me saying "Kyoto wont work" and "is not the solution".
I do support Kyoto. What im saying is that it does not appear to be the BEST solution to me. It requires a lot of political wills that apparently and sadly doesnt exist as much..yet!Of course im not generalizing, i know 119 countries including EU,Japan, Canada have ratified it but the hey the air we breathe doesnt belong to just these 119 buddies. Nobody owns the same air we breathe. Anyone can enjoy it.Anyone can pollute it.Hence,it needs everyone's strong will to protect it.
inspired by your post, the metaphor i used was that Kyoto could help slow down the process of kissing goodbye to our clean air, which means it will help but obviously not the best solution.
My question was just that : Is there any other way we can do so that we dont have to kiss out clean air goodbye?
anyway some food for thought :
by Mark Lynas Friday July 27, 2001 The Guardian newspaper
The Kyoto deal, struck in 1997, gave industrialised countries a target of reducing greenhouse gas emissions (principally carbon dioxide) by 5% below 1990 levels by 2008-12. But it didn't say how. Since 1997, participating countries have been attending annual meetings to decide on the rules for implementing Kyoto.
One group of countries, led by the US and including Japan, Australia and Canada, have worked diligently for years to weaken the targets by various underhand means. These come under the general heading "flexible mechanisms", and were pushed through on the grounds that they would help ease the pain of carbon cuts in gas-guzzling countries.
One mechanism allowed industrialised countries to trade emissions between themselves, so that those meeting the targets could sell carbon credits to those falling behind. Russia's economic collapse has reduced its industrial greenhouse gas emissions, leaving it with a vast number of "carbon credits" to sell on the world market. Then there are the notorious "sinks", which allow countries to count carbon absorbed in forests and agricultural land towards their targets in the same way as reducing the amount of carbon coming out of a factory chimney or a car exhaust.
Add together all the sinks provisions and it turns out that the original Kyoto targets for industrialised countries no longer become a cut at all, but rise to about 0.3%. And now that the US has decided to pull out of Kyoto, there will be far more carbon credits available to buy. The effect is increased because countries can then sell their sink credits on the emissions markets.
Without the US ratifying, emissions from all the industrialised countries (including the US) could rise by between 9.4% and 11.6% above 1990 levels by 2008-12. That's even higher than business as usual, predictions for which vary from 6.8% to 10.2%. The decisive factor is that, without the US, all Russia's carbon credits can be bought up by other major polluters.
It's great news for the likes of Bush and Exxon - they've managed to kill off Kyoto without even being involved. The Bush administration was right in saying "the Emperor of Kyoto has no clothes", but what they didn't mention was that it was their own efforts (and those of the Clinton administration) which stripped him naked.
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Hussein Macarambon
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Re: Kyoto Protocol
December 6, 2003 - 11:55 AM
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now you're talking. the question really is...What is the best solution? But I hate to disappoint you, but there's no such thing. When you say "i dont think kyoto is the best solution...", I inferred that you meant there is a better one, but please elaborate if you dont want me taking your statements for something else.
And please, I would rather if you stop using "DUH" because it is very insulting. You might as well be honest and call me stupid than pretend to be distantly friendly. This is, of course, in the context of an intellectual debate.
I agree with you that this is an issue that concerns every single human being on earth, but dont you think that 119 signatories to the treaty is already an achievement which needs to be pushed even further to achieve its initial objectives? It certainly is not right to leave it hanging in mid-air like that and pursue another agreement, which would cost us more time and clean air.
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Ha Thi Lan Anh
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Re: Kyoto Protocol
December 7, 2003 - 01:58 AM
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Originally posted by whossane
And please, I would rather if you stop using "DUH" because it is very insulting. You might as well be honest and call me stupid than pretend to be distantly friendly. This is, of course, in the context of an intellectual debate.
hey you are either too sensitive or intense.
plus i think you were misunderstanding so i was just trying to clarify things.also i found it funny that i was just asking a question that i dont have an answer hoping to be enlightened. And instead of answering my question, you keep on emphasizing on things that i did not say based on your own assumption. I know my english can be confusing(duh its not my 1st language) so if you are not sure what my point was, ask! Instead of start attacking based on ur personal assumption/intepretation...
and well i did not think or mean you are stupid or whatever.Your assumption once again have gone too far. I find this accusation kinda hurtful cuz i did not mean it.i know its an intellectual debate but i m so stressed these days that i just wanna keep things a bit informal.and i think informal doesnt make a debate any less intellectual. im not a big fan of guys with ties and suits.but duh maybe its not a good thing.so will be more careful with my wording.id better not post on tig for a while. dont u know stress can make ppl fire
pheww
anyway since you found it insulting then my sincere apology.
and chill out
life is too short to be so... intense
-tired me-
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Kyoto Protocol
December 7, 2003 - 04:20 AM
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Jeez guys - not to sound ignorant but what is the Kyoto protocol?
In terms of new environmental politicians- my fear is that it will not become a hot political issue until the damage is already done - part of what makes it difficult politicalls is that the efects of pollution are so gradual - when a bomb goes of the effects are instantanious - but glaciers cracking is not going to be considered a pressing issue.
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Robert Margolis
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Re: Kyoto Protocol
December 7, 2003 - 09:32 AM
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From what I hear, the Russians are waiting to see if Bush will get re-elected or what kind of deal they can get from the EU. Looks like the Russians are keeping their cards "close to the vest."
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asdf
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Re: Kyoto Protocol
December 7, 2003 - 11:02 AM
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Fortunately, though all of today's bullshit, climate change and environmental degredation are making their way to the top of politicians' priority list. Britan recently released a "White Paper" outlining priorities for the next ten years - along side Terrorism was climate change. Germany, as well (I belive it's Germany anyway) has a plan in the works to completely ween itself off of fossil fuel energy during the coming years...
Virtually everyone recognizes the impact of climate change and the consequences failing to change our destructive ways brings. Yet powerfull people remain swayed that short-term economics outweighs long-term sustainability, and habitability.
I hope Russia ratifies Kyoto.
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asdf
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Re: Kyoto Protocol
December 7, 2003 - 11:04 AM
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That's really interesting, if that's the case.
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Robert Margolis
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Plan B?
December 11, 2003 - 08:20 AM
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New Scientist magazine had this article on a potential alternative to Kyoto. I am attacking the link as an FYI.
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994467
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Ha Thi Lan Anh
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Re: Kyoto Protocol
December 11, 2003 - 09:55 AM
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attacking?
wow cyberpunk!
hehe
im just kidding
happy holidays to you and your family,Robert
whats your menu for Xmas night?
:P
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Vibek Raj Maurya
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Re: Kyoto Protocol
January 18, 2004 - 05:08 AM
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Thanks "rsmarg" for the referral. As suggested in the article perhaps "Contraction and Conversion (C&C)" might work better than existing Kyoto against bureaucratic squabbling and political postering. We have to wait and see until the countries reach to the consensus to implement it.
II
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