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Nick Moraitis
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when anti-americanism becomes anti-american
February 6, 2002 - 01:23 AM
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Writer Salmon Rushdie had an an article in the newspaper today about how there is increasing anti-Americanism. Rushdie argues that this is not just in the middle east... he writes:
"Western anti-Americanism is an altogether more petulant phenomenon than its Islamic counterpart and far more personalised. Muslim countries don't like America's power, its "arrogance", its success; but in the non-American West, the main objection seems to be to American people. Night after night, I have found myself listening to Londoners' diatribes against the sheer weirdness of the American citizenry. The attacks on America are routinely discounted. ("Americans only care about their own dead." American patriotism, obesity, emotionality, self-centredness: these are the crucial issues."
Personally, I think this picture of Americans is fair for at least a significant portion of the population. Stereotypes are terrible, but the sad fact is that they guide most people's beliefs (including it seems George Bushs'). For me, in America ignorance and over-the-top patriotism leads to a climate where even the political leaders seem to be blind to the effect of their actions -- I mean while Iran might have trouble keeping some terrorists beyond their mountainous borders, in general every person I've ever met from Iran was extremely nice. The best and most emotional speech I've ever heard about terrorism was actually from the very capable Iranian diplomat who was elected President of UNESCO in October. It seems a bit harsh to call them an "Axis of Evil"! Certainly I'm sure the Iranian Prime Minister would never say something similar about America!!!! (and if he did, Bush would probably take that as justification to nuke Tehran).
Do other people have a negative stereotype/perception of Americans? Is Rushdie right that those of us [or some of us] in developing and/or Islamic countries tend to be "anti-American", whereas for those of us in western countries its more personal -- we [or some of us] are anti-"American people"?
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Mike
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ohhh man. im getting high off this thread.
February 6, 2002 - 04:56 AM
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I exist for threads like these.
Yes. I dont like American patriotism, arrogance, and all things remotely Texan - including Republicans, though i dont like Democrats either. Hell, American politics sucks. I think its more a fear factor, when people like George Bush get in charge; well, there doesnt seem to be much hope left.
Interesting how Rushdie said it was more personal, i think it is when someone is asked on the spot about it.
The first thing French people respond when asked about Americans (true story - there was a study into this) is something along the lines of "They screw up our culture"
Coke machines in restaurants. Advertising everywhere. Sexual connotations left right and centre.
Australians on the other hand are more along the lines of Americans being so arrogant (again, this is true - its all from the same study) - "Those arrogant B*stards."
I happen to think Australians are just as arrogant, if not, then arrogant in a different way. But just as repulsive.
I think however, as ive said before, the real 'hatred' of America is that we, on the outside of the U.S.A border get the idea that Pluralism and Democracy are really really good, and are things to be proud of.
Problem is, when America goes around spreading the good word by enforcing its values on other cultures, both Islamic and Western, they manage to do it so violently (both physically and culturally) that it loses its appeal, and makes nearly everyone in the world feel like they are something inferior to America.
So, will i ever be caught holding a placard saying 'Death to America' - probably not.
But 'America go home' - well, thats maybe something id do.
Ask yourself a question - when has the rest of the world ever impacted on America, no matter what facet of American life it may be, as much as America has impacted on the rest of the world?
Perhaps the inability to change something which can change yourself inspires a cross between hatred and fear.
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Pred.
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vivek
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Re: when anti-americanism becomes anti-american
February 10, 2002 - 01:00 AM
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responding to preddy,
----- you wrote...
You cant blame the CIA of today for activating people like Osama Bin Laden into political/religious causes.
-----
yep, tell me.
everything is manipulated with an american point of view man.
in those days, russia argued that they could get peace in afghanistan by stopping all the tribes from killing each other and putting an end to all the extremism that was breeding there.
at that time, it was in american intrest to stop communism from spreading. so... they get justified in helping taleiban.
as for creating people like OBL. well, america created folks like taleiban for political causes, and then when they got into religious causes and when america got bitten in the back, all of a sudden they became terrorists. so... u tell, whome to blame.
----- you wrote...
Sure, there are some terrorists from that region. but most come from everywhere. Suburban Britain. Outback Australia. Slums of Bogota. Jungles of the Phillipines. Rich mansions of The Arab Emirates and the poor towns of Saudi Arabia.
-----
Agreed. but they are trained in PoK. and thats the place from where they enter into india.
so, you see, infact you made a very good point here. its ilke kashmiris dont want to leave india. But pakistan wants kashmir and for that they will support fundamentalism in every possible way and try to get as many people from where ever possible to fight the indian army, coz they know their own army is too weak. cant win in a direct war, so go for a proxy war.
but.... i think lets just tick to america as for this thread. wanna argue more on this, make a new thread.
as for hate.... thanx for telling me.
----- you wrote...
Your country has trigger happy nuclear-armed generals and pakistan has a lot of people.
-----
naaaah your wrong there. no trigger happy generals out here. indian army is too disciplined. no one can threaten the Prime Minister to hang him in public and become the president and declare himself the messiah of peace. (sadly)
----- you wrote...
No stringently patrolled protocol enforces the arming and launching of nuclear weapons in your country OR Pakistan
-----
i wish it was that way.
----- you wrote...
George Bush has already committed his nation to aiming Americas military at all nations who harbor terrorists according to the definition America has of what a terrorist is.
-----
definitions of americans---
terrorists - Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein.
pakistan - peace loving, friendly nation. (peep hole into russia)
india - stupid country. you can take them for granted. they wont do anything.
----- you wrote...
Not everything. They dont seem to be any good at international chess competitions.
-----
you just loooove to cross me dont you.
dont be surprised if tomorrow Bush comes up with a bill saying chess is an evil terrorist minded voilent game and to end terrorism, chess should be banned.
and if at all he comes up with it, dont be surprised if britan suppors america and UN makes it mandatory that all its member nations should ban chess.
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vivek
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Re: when anti-americanism becomes anti-american
February 10, 2002 - 02:00 AM
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actually, i do have some anti american sentiment (although not too strong).
BTW, i belong to india and india is not an islamic nation.
its like americans are under the impression that they are ruling the world or something. and thats where all the arrogance comes from.
if you go to look at american foreign poilicies, these taleiban guys were infact harboured by CIA once upon a time, to end the russian infuence in the region.
and today what is america doing? establishing its own influence there.
infact, when the taleiban were fighting america, they were using american made weapons.
looking at indo-pak relations, every body knows where the terrorists are comming from. they come from across the line of control between india and pakistan-occupied-kashmir.
and when america has the right in this world to cross half the world and start attacking afghanistan just coz they refused to hand over one man (osama) india doesnt even have the right to self defence.
i mean, why are they against india crossing the LOC and finishing militants once and for all.
and what about the war against terror.
once they are finished with OBL, the war is finished for them. what ever happened to the promises they made to us for our support.
they tell one thing to india and other thing to pakistan (colin powells visits)
thousands of loop holes in american foreign policies.
everything that isint going americas way is bad.
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Nick Moraitis
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interesting
February 10, 2002 - 04:01 AM
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Interesting....
Vivek demonstrated (although I know he is only one person) Rushdie's point - that those from non-western countries (generally) criticised America (while those from western countries, including the United States, (generally) criticised the american people with personal attacks on their crass culture, simple-mindedness or weight).
More perspectives are required, but here are some provocative questions (which I do not necessarily agree with):
1) Is this 'difference' because people in developing countries have a greater political culture (and or certain experiences through history) that allow them to 'see' problems with the American policy/government that those in the West are blind towards?
Is it also that like Vikek they can see them because they are at the 'receiving end' of American policy hypocracy?
2) Do people in developing countries take a similar 'hard line' when criticising their own governments that might (in a few minority cases) be brutal regimes? Is the criticism of America the only criticism happening? Is that justified?
I thought this might lead the conversation in interesting places and bring up new debate. Please don't assume my position on any of the many value judgements inherent in the above questions-- they are meant to be provocative...
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Mike
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response to Vivek.
February 10, 2002 - 04:32 AM
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This is a response to Viveks previous post.
- - -
if you go to look at american foreign poilicies, these taleiban guys were infact harboured by CIA once upon a time, to end the russian infuence in the region.
and today what is america doing? establishing its own influence there.
Ahh yes, the CIA. One thing that must be noted is that the CIA operated with the intention to service America's interests at that point in time, they are not in the business of securing the safety of American interests abroad or at home.
You cant blame the CIA of today for activating people like Osama Bin Laden into political/religious causes.
From their view - if it meant funding islamic fundamentalist's to get rid of communist russia - then so be it.
Its just that once the American people couldnt see the reds creeping across the central/eastern asian continent it didnt seem to matter. So the CIA moved on, and so did Americas policy.
looking at indo-pak relations, every body knows where the terrorists are comming from. they come from across the line of control between india and pakistan-occupied-kashmir.
Not entirely true. Sure, there are some terrorists from that region. but most come from everywhere. Suburban Britain. Outback Australia. Slums of Bogota. Jungles of the Phillipines. Rich mansions of The Arab Emirates and the poor towns of Saudi Arabia.
Hate exists everywhere - but dont think it cant exist in you either.
i mean, why are they against india crossing the LOC and finishing militants once and for all.
Your country has trigger happy nuclear-armed generals and pakistan has a lot of people. No stringently patrolled protocol enforces the arming and launching of nuclear weapons in your country OR Pakistan. And Pakistan is in the same situation- so basically, 2 countries with huge populations facing off in a nuclear war isnt what the west wants to be dealing with right now. If ever.
once they are finished with OBL, the war is finished for them. what ever happened to the promises they made to us for our support.
Not true. George Bush has already committed his nation to aiming Americas military at all nations who harbor terrorists according to the definition America has of what a terrorist is. So basically, watch out Iraq, Iran, and North Korea (read 'State of the Union address' @ www.whitehouse.gov)
- - -
you mentioned that America says one thing to one country and another thing to a different country - dont sound so surprised - it does that to its own people.
everything that isint going americas way is bad.
Not everything. They dont seem to be any good at international chess competitions.
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Mike
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i think.
February 12, 2002 - 08:20 AM
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I think i'll leave the credibility of your last post hanging on your final comment.
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Pred.
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vivek
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Re: when anti-americanism becomes anti-american
February 14, 2002 - 01:43 AM
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so you just loooove to cross me.
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Ha Thi Lan Anh
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Re: when anti-americanism becomes anti-american
February 14, 2002 - 11:25 AM
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- you wrote -.. -you wrote-... -you wrote-
that reminds me of the post i wrote for u at peace-war discussion hehe ..btw whaz up in india?
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Joanna Frizzell
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I find this discussion very interesting!
February 15, 2002 - 02:33 AM
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Even though everybody seems to be farely repulsed by anything American, especially by the American goverment, it represents to me the underlying attraction or at least interest in everything American. Even though you don't like our foreign policies or political involvement overseas, our exstravagant and exploited media or our excessive nature which causes so many of our problems, I get the feeling of fascination and frustration over America. Its like a love-hate relationship, you're attracted but yet so repulsed at the same time.
This discussion paints the picture of a domineering (perhaps cruel), insensitive, arrogant, selfish, and very imposing America with her hand raised in a big fist ready to crush some poor, innocent, helpless and cowering victim. I agree that we are arrogant and insensitive at times, and that we stick our nose in other countries business too often. But would I say that the whole world is victim to America and we are the unmerciful dictator? No, I think it is a lot more complicated than that. I think we are trying to simplify the relationship between America and the rest of the world into a two-side only view, and there are so many more angles than that.
For one thing, if the whole world really hated us all that much we wouldn't be as powerful as we are. We wouldn't have the economy we do without foreign buyers and foreign investors. There is no place for a business or an industry if it does not sell. So obviously the presence of American clothes, food, entertainment, etc. in other parts of the world means that somebody is buying it, and it means more than a few sombodies.
Also, Americans are the largest group of consumers in the world by far. This equates to meaning that a lot of other countries rely on us to buy their product and to help them grow or maintain their economic status. Now, I think that this causes a lot of resentment towards America, but they afforded us the opportunity. If the countries of the world had decided not to sell their product to us, they would not be in the dependent economic position they are in. The world contributes to the "bad" America image, it is not entirely our own doing.
As far as U.S. foreign relations goes I don't think we're always right, I don't think we're always wrong, and sometimes we're neither. We are nosy in part and the other part is pressure from others to do something. Sometimes we're asked, sometimes we're not. Sometimes we're welcome, sometimes we're not. My thoughts on our involvement in the Mideast before Sept. 11th was that we should've been out of there a long time ago. It's hurt us a lot more than it has helped us. We had the best of intentions, as we usually do, but we were trying to force peoples and governments to get along and that has to come on their own terms. I will not go into details, because political details are fuzzy and you never know exactly what was going on. Motives become blended and ulterior, it would be useless for me to try and make sense out of something that never did in reality. Politics are messy. That's why we need to remember that real change takes place in the masses and moves up from there.
Osama Bin Laden and anti-americanism
What is anti-americanism? What is the aim of anti-americanism? And by that I mean what is it exactly that they want to do to Americans? Concerning OBL and the organisation to which he belongs, what is there cause and purpose? Do they want to wipe out all Americans just to exstinguish us? Do they just see us as a roadblock to their future world power? Do they want to rule the world? Or is their main purpose just to kill us because they don't like us? I have to admit that I don't know what they aim at doing, but I definitely think they have ulterior motives and it is not just about anti-americanism.
That is all for now. Smiles and hugs to everyone.
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Gerald Derome
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Bigger picture.
February 18, 2002 - 11:56 AM
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Goverments and religions have let us all down.
What the worlds peoples want and what they get from those is charge is not hormonious. Goverments thrive on conflict to strenghten their econonmies. The "modernised industrialized" with automation and much of the rest of the world with bare hands. Turn off the machines to create real work and wealth re-distribution.
The world does not want any more guns yet their development does not end it is actually being pushed. Bush is nothing more than the biggest strongest and most out of control warlord there is. Does he really represent the people or just the filthy rich?
How do the orders come from the masses? Sorry requests?
Until we all see ourselves as one people WW there will always be friction.
We are all to blame if we do not stop dwelling on the past, and present, and, proceed to plan for the future.
We all have to be anti-countryarian! Or become Earthling first and foremost if we are to resolve our differences.
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Juan
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post-egalitarian predjudice
February 19, 2002 - 08:01 AM
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Yes, American culture is most certainly a strange phenomenon to us outsiders. Many of us are literally quite confused by it. Most likely during the Roman Emprire the same could be said about Roman culture
The question this begs is quite significant however; is our predjudice against Americans a function of our own nationalist leanings, or is there legitimacy to the critisms we may have? I stongly believe them to be legitimate, however I am not an American.
This bias however is not sufficient to explain the definite strangeness of American culture, and self-centred worldview.
Living in a major Canadian urban centre has givin me quite a lot of first hand experience dealing with American citizens, as well as my limited experience within America. I have observed this cultural vaccum firsthand, and unfortunately, this same cultural vaccum has created a satellite culture of tabloid automatons here in Canada.
I will make a point in saying that by no means do I assume that my prejudicial assumptions about American culture are at all acurate about the majority of the populace. I simply have experienced a great deal of ignorance, and jingoistic patriotism, quite unlike any other cultural group I have had similar amount of exposure to. It's quite remarkable, such extreme nationalism would most likely not exist in a totalitarian society, if you account for such factors as duress etc...
But, like I said, I'm a biased observer. I loathe American culture, yet I myself am a product of it. I would love to hear of other's experiences which my conform to, or contradict my own...
-D
PS: for a firsthand view of the weirdness of the religious fundametalism in the US, check out:
www.godhatesamerica.com or www.godhatesfags.com
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vivek
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Re: when anti-americanism becomes anti-american
February 21, 2002 - 01:21 AM
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hey angel,
weathers cool in india.
actually, i personally dont find america to be so much of a culprit. i am not anti american or something.
but what i hate about it is that they always try to play the big boss.
as if they are the one ruling the world overestimating themselves (clearly from the way delia talks, you can make out.)
its as if there is no international body.
whatever happened to UN.
but again.... as i said before, UN is a big joke ever since it was created after the 2nd WW. not americas fault again.
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Ha Thi Lan Anh
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Re: when anti-americanism becomes anti-american
February 21, 2002 - 09:54 AM
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Vivek good about India  ..enjoy the nice weather!..heres cold but cool for em at least..
Now we all see UN sometimes helpless and under pressure of US.. but hey guy UN is not at all a joke.. it have made a lot of great missions for the world..And without it i believe World war 3 is easy to happen... Stop blaming UN ..
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vivek
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Re: when anti-americanism becomes anti-american
February 22, 2002 - 09:49 AM
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good to know about the nice weather in vietnam.
and really glad to know that you are fine.
but... UN...
i never said UN is totally useless. but the very purpose it was created for (to avoid a polirised world) is beated already.
personally, i look upon UN as just a humanitarion organization, like so many other NGO's nothing more than that.
as far as international affairs is concerned, no one bothers about UN.
u dont like anyone saying bad abiout UN coz u have been close to un and worked for it.
otherwise... UN is a powerless organization.
but ... lets not drift away. this thread is ment for america. so... no more UN here.
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