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sean jayasekara
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
January 15, 2004 - 06:49 AM
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Quite an amusing discussion, and yes I believe merely by his choice of words, Abongta has some superiority/inferiority issues, though he is right in saying that he shouldnt be forced to think how others think - he is fully entitled to his own opinion.
I for one, however do not agree with homosexuality, I think it is a wrong, as is other sexual promiscuity, drug dependance etc. However, no-one is free from wrong, and persecuting such people is definately a step too far.
I guess the one big problem with homosexuality is:
I can totally see where greyarmadillo is coming from with regards to the life cycle - unlike, other wrong acts, if the whole world was homosexual the human race would be (under natural circumstances) wiped out.
I would also like to further this by mentioning families (that is Mother (female), Father (male), Child(ren)) cannot exist in homosexual communities
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jesse adams
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
January 19, 2004 - 10:12 AM
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There are several biological "natural" incidnences of homosexual behaviour in the animal kingdom. These generally relate to the increased maintanace of genetic transfer via siblings and close family. The need for procreation is driven by the Selfish Gene system whereby we are biologically driven to procreate in roder to pass on genetic material. With this in mind how does homosexuality become more abherent than the choice of fertile women to not have children? The average fertile woman is bioogically capable of producing upto 10 children, with modern medical help it is likely that these would all reach maturation and become healthy individulas. Surely then the behaviour of women is unnatural. To relegate all relationships to a biological imperative is not valid, do yolu really think your marital choices should come down to a singular exchange of biological material? If so from this perspectives the urge to raise children should be encouraged in homosexuals as this is a 'normal' feeling, also by this dictate the women who choose to remain childless ar in fact abherent. The term 'homosexual communities' is ridiculous, it brings to mind little enclaves of pathetic individuals unable to exist in the outside world. Much as some people who post here would like it there are no gay ghetto's. Homosexuals are generally high achievers who have advanced degrees and good jobs.
that doesn't blind me from seeing the reason why most societies in the world have made conscious efforts over the ages to marginalize homosexuals and ensure that homosexuality as such remains taboo!
Roman, Gree, Hindu, French, and several others all historical cultures with no problems in homosexuality. The term for lesbianism "Saphic" comes from greek literature about an island of women. Homosexuality has only been persucuted over the last couple of hunderd years. Hitler had a special place in his camps for homosexuals.
The religous basis for persecution of homosexuals is based on Leviticus. Amazing how people can always find a fragment of the bible to persucte people they don't agree with.
Greyarmadillo I think your problems with homosexuality are due to your heterosexuality - perhaps you are not very secure with your own sexuality and thereofre over compensate.
Unless ofcourse some lunatic genetic researcher comes up with a way that humans are able to reproduce asexually
There is work in this area - your idiot genetic researchers are attempting to enable women who are infertile to produce children. Would this not fullfill your 'natural life cycle'?
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Vivek
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
January 27, 2004 - 11:04 AM
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Originally posted by jda
Roman, Gree, Hindu, French, and several others all historical cultures with no problems in homosexuality. The term for lesbianism "Saphic" comes from greek literature about an island of women. Homosexuality has only been persucuted over the last couple of hunderd years.
Religion in my opinion, like education is a great leveller. It strives to bring equality in society. This is one of the many truths that are common to religions worldwide. Homosexuality is a natural phenomenon, and I agree with you on this. And the reason why most religions persecute and suppress homosexuality is because it desires that all humans lead equal lives (which in this case would mean to have a chance at procreation).
The reason why the persecution of homosexuality has become more apparent in the last two hundred years, is primaily because liberals such as yourself have come to the fore, who simply cannot stomach a system of values that people have been following for ages.
Further, I have no clue about the Roman, Greek or French, but it is totally inaccurate of you to say the Hindus have no problem with Homosexuality. It is almost ERADICATED from the Hindu society. But then again, Hindus are very tolerant people, hence it might appear so to you in the United States that they don't have any problems.
Originally posted by jda
Greyarmadillo I think your problems with homosexuality are due to your heterosexuality - perhaps you are not very secure with your own sexuality and thereofre over compensate.
And JDA the fact that I refuse to agree that homosexuality has a place in society shouldn't mean I am insecure with my sexuality.
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jesse adams
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
January 30, 2004 - 06:22 AM
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If religion is a great leveller striving for equality wbhy will it not allow people to live as they wish (within the bounds of civilised behaviour). Why should somebodies sexual orientation mark them as unfit to live in society? My liberal point of view is remarkable only in that I wish everyone to have the freedom to live with equal rights and freedoms. It seems that people who wish to prove that homosexuality is unnatural point out the inabiloty to procreate as a gathering point. Does this mean that people who do not wish to have childredn should be bareed from marriage? How about contraception? Surely both of these ponts are equally unnatural. I again refer to my comments on 'life cycles' - incidentally I have some scientific references on 'natural' homosexuality if you are interested.
Your point that liberals (like me) have lead to the increased persucution of homosexuality is contradictory. I do not see how my wishing everybody freedom to religous, sexual and political proclivities increases the persscution. Perhaps what I am doing is bringing to light these persecutions. Your point regarding Hindu eradication of homosexuality is interesting and I appolgoise if I was misguided - I may follow this post with other questions. My point was regarding historical acceptance of homosexuality. It is believed that Alexander the great was homosexual (bisexual) and several other prominant figures in history. My original point was that at this time despite religous fervour there was more acceptance, it is perhaps the onset of conservatism that has lead to this lack of acceptance - no doubt the fault of liberals (like me).
One thing I find amazing is how the term 'liberal' comes across as being insulting. It seems that unless one is hard line in ones beliefes (ie supporting some religous tome or other and generally taking the moral high ground at every oppertunity) then liberal referes to a lack of morality. My liberalism is actually quite conservative, however I would refer you to a recent statement by Clint Eastwood (often shouted down as conservative) that homosexuals are people why should they be porevented from expressing themselves or their emotinal attachments?
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jesse adams
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
February 2, 2004 - 09:15 AM
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The quotes I mentioed earlier - I wanted to make sure they were accurate
notable quotes from the news:
"You have to believe in total equality. People should be able to be what they want to be and do what they want as long as they're not harming people."
-- CLINT EASTWOOD, on same-sex marriages, in US Weekly.
"I like the libertarian view, which is to leave everyone alone. Even as a kid, I was annoyed by people who wanted to tell everyone how to live."
-- EASTWOOD, on his political leanings, in US Weekly.
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Cicero
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
February 6, 2004 - 02:17 AM
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When you ppl mentioned religion and homosexuals marriage i have ot mention Futurist stance on this topic:
In Futurism we allow gay & lesbian couples marriage, as we find that a basic human right and freedom, since we stand as sole defendant of freedom on this planet.
I myself had a pleasure to marry two such couples and it all went ok.
All what they needed to do is to sign marriage papers, confirming they are marrying under free will as two fully independent subjects.
We are never going to put down anybody. Anyone anywhere can find his freedom and quality of living under banner of Futurist flag.
If when u say about spreading, yes acting like this makes us spread. And that is what is natural.
And another perspective:
After genetical science makes new steps we'll be ready to clone and even create uterus .. to give birth in laboratories, that how to get kids wont be a problem anymore.
Ave Futuria
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jesse adams
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
February 6, 2004 - 12:10 PM
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It has been decided in the state of Massachusettes that marriage between same sex couples is within legal deffinitions and to prevent this is against the constitution of the US.
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Terri Willard
beigetreten: Jul 27, 2001
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
March 5, 2004 - 01:07 AM
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Hi greyarmadillo. I would agree that we do live in different cultural realities... but since we share a planet, we have to find ways to all live together and to deal with our diversity.
Two quick points...
1) I'm perplexed by your argument that individualism as a supreme value underlies acceptance of same-sex marriage in North America and Europe. I would argue that it is the exact opposite. My desire to be married to my partner is derived from the fact that I hold the ideal of family and marriage very highly. My partner and I grew up in very close-knit families and strive to live up to what we learned from our parents about being a family. Legal marriage would provide us with the same framework of rights and responsibilities which help other families to work through difficulties and to contribute to society.
2) Your timeline is correct about linking the rise of acceptance of homosexuality to the rise of the media. I would argue, however, that this is the same timeline for the rise of acceptance of diversity and human rights (e.g. rights of women, rights of ethnic minorities) overall in Notrh America. As media tools have become available to minority and marginalized portions of the population, we have used them to tell our stories. As more stories are told, social acceptance has risen... society has learned more about issues and perspectives it didn't have access to before. The speed of this has risen with the introduction of the Internet and cheap video production facilities. These technologies enable us to tell personal stories and to connect on a deeper level than the evening news.
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Cicero
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
March 5, 2004 - 01:11 AM
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"flourishing" is a wide term. Countries with family values are all in third world. And it is a related term. People are born free and have a freedom of choice. Thats why "west" is so developed. Coz we take those rights serious. As long as you keep concidering ppl that act differently as "majority" as unwanted there will not be any real progress. And you have only you to lbame and not others.
Ave Futuria
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Vivek
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
March 5, 2004 - 07:55 AM
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For JDA and other sympathisers of homosexuals....
In my opinion homosexuality is unacceptable to most cultures in the world primarily because the fundamental unit of most societies is the family which includes a man, woman and child... and not the individual! This is something you wouldn't understand as you dwell in a society where the individual reigns supreme and there is little or no concern for family ties and values.
If you look around... you would see enough evidence to suggest that this fancy for social acceptance of homsexuals is media induced and matured mainly after the second World War. If you compare this with the family life of average Americans (read citizens of the United States) you would see gradual change in the social structure... with the weakening of family values, increase in divorce rates, acceptance of new ideas, and the eventual rise of the individual as the fundamental unit of society.
I am not saying any of this is wrong... but what I am trying to imply is that the world that you live in drastically different from mine. And hence your wish of the universal acceptance of homosexuals is simply not going to happen, as long as societies like the one I live in flourish.
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ashok malhotra
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Dont Discriminate
March 7, 2004 - 09:35 AM
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I think its very wrong to discriminate basing one's discriminations on sex, sexual preference race or color.
A psychological study i read about pointed out the fact that
divisions of humans into hetrosexual and homosexual categories is an arbitrary and false one. Most humans are infact mixed in varying proportions. Those who are predominently hetrosexual do not care to discuss the topic( they are least concerned about it). Others tend to reason and understand their sexuality. Some come to hate their own homosexual part and propogate against it substantiating their arguments on their interpretations of religious texts.
I think the civilisation of Athens was one which understood the phenomenon better than most other civilisations.
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Daniel A. Townsend
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
March 15, 2004 - 07:48 AM
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I guess it is no time to add my opinion on the matter since it has taken a twist to understanding different cultures. I live in a predominantly homophobic society so homophobic that one can be killed and there have been instances where homosexuals have been beaten and some killed.Having seen that it is my opinion that we should be respectful of the basic human rights,for the homosexual whatever s/he do in their bedroom is fine with them. I won't be concerned with whether it is wrong or right because I am not in a position to judge.
I think what we should be discussing is how can we peacefully coexsist especially since homosexuals will always be apart of our society.
It is clear that religon has failed to answer many of our question as for Homosexuality it has clear provided a view that is incompatible with moder society.(So please don't use bibical references when trying to address this issues)
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Gray
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
March 23, 2004 - 09:56 AM
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The application of the extended family as a 'cure all' for society is touching. Unrealistic but a sweet idea. Having visited and having family who live there I would say that India is a beautiful country with a much mailgned international reputation. However, to cite India as a world Utopia of family life is risable. the extended family system still exists within the US and Europe, consider Italy. Homosexuality is still a real part of society. The US consideres the rights and obligations of the individual only in terms of their impact on society. Why should a person be help accountable and punished for a naturally occuring phenomena as their sexuality. The world would be a better place if we all were vegetarians, didn't over eat and recycled. should we say that people who wish to overeat are to be penalised.
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Daniel A. Townsend
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
March 26, 2004 - 03:51 AM
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I do agree that one sexuality is not a choice if so then I guess very few people would choose to be gay. Understanding sexuality is very complexed and ofcourse views are going to be very far and different apart.What we should embrace is that Homosexuality is always going to be apart of our society and will be a feature of the human race. Homosexuals are no different from any other people(that is those who consider themself to be straight)...we are all humans beings of such we shouldn't be judged for who we are its just like ostracising some the color of their hair or their skin.
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ashok malhotra
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SEX
March 26, 2004 - 08:55 AM
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GB, if you want to learn about what's beautiful about India and what is not. what they think of love and lust then read a new ebbok that is fun to read. It is set in a backward village in India, The name of the book is Mystic and the Blossoms. its available at
http://eloka.com
I am living in India at the moment, and the attitude here is that they are not concerned about homosexuality or gays, some of it gos on but they just consider it a part of life
in general about sex though the belief is that humans waste too much thought, time and energy on it and they will be far far better of if they dint
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