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Luke Lieberman
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 10, 2003 - 02:25 AM
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Greyarmadillo - I understand what you are saying about incomplete life cycles - and no I don't think you are a bad person for this.
Please be a bit more careful and sensitive in how you phrase what you are trying to say.
Baically I agree that family is very important - I am one of 5 children - I have 9 neices and nefews. Creating family is profoundly important to me and I feel my life will be incomplete without children.
But each person has their own path and their own purpose in this world. It is not for us to choose other peoples paths for them. Worry about how to find happiness in your own life. If having children is as important to you as it is to me, then it is totally understandable that you will be heterosexual.
I think the inability to have children is an unfortunate consequence of a homosexual lifestyle - but I also recognise that Gay people are born Gay - it is not a matter of choice - it is a matter of being true to themselves.
And Yes Jedi - I did mean Catholic Preists, and I think the stated position of the Vatican is an all male preisthood.
Again - you bring up some good points. I am not talking about seperate but equal, I'm talking about seperation of church and state. Personally I don't care what we call the union of two Gay people - it is semantics and does not concern me - but when you gave the example of your jewish friends who wanted validation by the having a Jewish wedding - well the fact is that the 5 books of Moses condem homosexual behavior - so any Orthodox interpretation of Jewdiasm will reject their marriage under the precepts of their religion.
Ultimately I think they need to recognise that they have broken with the Jewish faith, if not the Jewish culture, and decide to have their own intretation of what Jewdiasm means to them. Ultimately it seems they are concerned with a societal validation of their feelings. What is really important is what they see in eachothers eyes.
And Jacob - it is not only Christianity but also Muslim (amen) and Jewdiasm which are against homosexuality - they are all derived from the old testiment.
In Jewdiasm, frankly most American Jews - like myself are for practical purposes progressive and highly educated - politically most American Jews are cool with homosexuality - but that is also because we are more Jewish in culture and heritage than "religion". Ask any American Jews you know if they beleive in Genesis.
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Martin Kuplens-Ewart
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 10, 2003 - 02:33 AM
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Just for the sake of argument....
Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
http://www.topical-bible-studies.org/24-0003.htm <- pulled from. Not sure what translation.
Jesus follows two commandments: Love God, Love all people/creatures
Wow.
Sets aside Leviticus, etc.
Wow.
Biblical basis for arguments against homosexuality? I can't find one that applies to Christendom.
Still...
...nothing to do with the legal position of gays in Egypt.
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Crystal_Abongta
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Eat this!!
December 10, 2003 - 06:08 AM
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Originally posted by luke
actually guys what you are missing is why Abognta is in this game - what he really is about (as mentioned by Trapper on another thread) is judging others - thereby making himself feel better and more powerful.
Abgonta's 'inner most motive' is simply ego. Have you noticed that he always judges others to his own benefit - he always sees himself as rightous, godly, wise, upright etc and everyone else as evil ignorant heathens.
At the end of the day Abognta is just dealing with self-esteem issues...
Luke, only a heatless dunce like you would dare misquote or misinterpret me. I am not surprise that sycophants like Jedimike, Hugh and surprisingly Angel-on-broomstick would join the celebration of their own funeral.
There is no phrase in all my postings that suggest all this bullshit you are talking about. I’ve not said that I am righteous, godly, wise, upright but I thank you so much for realizing that I have those qualities which most of you out there don’t have. You have all been lost in a pro-homosexual labyrinth to recognize simple values and that’s what takes you off balance each time you meet someone who would not succumb to your folly.
In psychology I learned that when you are chocking with an inferiority complex, the most tempting escape rout for the dull and ignorant would be plunging headlong into superiority complex.
You are those shouting unreasonably about understanding other people’s life styles, differences and priorities. To you, I am the only one to understand that you love living with homosexuals (if you are not some of them). You want me to accept that you don’t have problems with them and that they can go about their lifestyles once it doesn’t disturb you. On the other hand, you fail to accept that I don’t like them, I can’t tolerate than and that I have nothing to do with them.
Try to understand that there are people who are different from you (You have been asking me to do that all along). Realize that in as much as you accommodate gays, other don’t others find them intolerable and let it be that.
I am quitting this particular threat not because you have won but because I am too descent to spend time arguing with toothless bulldogs who would never listen to the sound made by their master.
Can’t convince bad seeds like you to change, I don’t even have such energy to waste. I rather want you to understand there are people who don’t like what you like and stop trying desperately to win them over for you would just become vain and bitter especially to childish beings like you.
Personally, I would tell you no matter what you say hereafter that homosexuality is the greatest tragedy that can happen in the life of a human person. Its unfortunate but I must say sot. Its worst than Hiroshima
What an irony, when some of the good for nothing pigs you have over go to Africa, they criticize polygamy. What’s the filthiness in polygamy compared to homosexuality?
It’s the last post I can offer this threat; I have other important and better things to do than waste time crying over spilled milk.
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Terri Willard
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 10, 2003 - 08:55 AM
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Originally posted by Abongta
Personally, I would tell you no matter what you say hereafter that homosexuality is the greatest tragedy that can happen in the life of a human person. Its unfortunate but I must say sot. Its worst than Hiroshima
Goodbye, Abongta. It saddens me to know that a mobilizer of youth believes that anything related to sexual conduct could be morally worse than killing mass numbers of people. I've never heard someone professing to be a Christian say that before. So sad.... it makes me weep for what religion has come to.
Surely life and social justice and love of one's fellow human beings is the most important thing in life.
Goodbye. May God open your heart someday.
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Vivek
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 10, 2003 - 11:00 AM
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Well... I might sound like a neanderthal to those of you who supposedly have a much more liberal outlook towards life and everything around them... 
Nonetheless... I felt its time that I must speak...
Firstly... I want to make it clear that I don't have anything against homosexuals.
Now... back to my arguement, a person being a homosexual would find it almost impossible to complete his/her life cycle as a human being, provided they lead their lives as naturally as they possibly can. Which in this case... would be to have sex only with others of the same sex. Hence... they wouldn't have any chance at pro-creation... which in my opinion is a fundamental right of any living being on this planet. (Unless ofcourse some lunatic genetic researcher comes up with a way that humans are able to reproduce asexually... and considering recent developments I wouldn't surprised if that became a reality in the near future... jokes apart... lets get back to the point I'm trying to make)
So... I pity the homosexuals for they stand no chance to complete their life cycles.
And... I guess thats the reason, why almost all forms of organized religion vehemently oppose homsexuality, even to the extent of giving it a stature of a crime in some societies. For most people religion is about God... but they forget to see that religion is also governance. And... all of these religions have evolved over the ages to systematically eradicate the very idea of homosexuality.
However like all other human traits... as long as we continue to survive none of our traits are going to be extinct.
So... to summarize the point I am trying to make... as homosexuals don't lead lives as complete as other humans... I guess its better to suppress it as much as humanly possibly rather than allow a sizable portion of the populace to lead pitiable lives... and in the process of doing so... cause severe problems to the rest of humanity.
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asdf
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 10, 2003 - 12:09 PM
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Greyarmidilo, you should correct your language, you're a young person and it's especially unfortunate if you demain yourself with ignorant thinking.
What's your place to judge homosexuals as pitiful, incomplete or worthy of suppression?
"Religion", actually, isn't 'against' homosexuality. Christianity is - and this is indeed arguable - and Christians only constitute 30% of the world. So long as any other religions tolerate or embrace human diversity I don't think it's appropriate for you to group criticism of homosexuality under some broad, universal banner. If you're merely generalizing, point taken, but I didn't get the impression you were.
You also seem to forget that as well as God, and governance, it's also about Man, and powerful men throughout the ages of the Church have remained hostile toward homosexuals. Some were even homosexuals themselves...
Plus, you make a distinction that procreation is a part of people's life-cycle. Don't limit yourself here. Procreation is obviously necessary for human continuity, but not everyone necessarily needs to procreate, and certainly not to be 'complete' or fulfill whatever you individually view as their 'life-cycle'. Some people procreate, homosexuality has existed as long as heterosexuality, side-by-side, and still the human race progresses. Your conclusions are patently wrong here.
I don't understand why people continually defer to 'religion' or close-mindedness when this topic comes up. If homosexuality is natural, and we can agree to that much (which you have), why should it not be embraced? Why should we not requestion our fundamental responses to it (thereby, perhaps growing as an individual as well as, perhaps progressing as a society). As much as some like to distort the facts and misjudge circumstance, homosexuality is no more 'destructive' than heterosexuality and no more 'inappropriate'.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 10, 2003 - 12:18 PM
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First - how about we just call him General Clark - ok
But you brought up some solid points about them wanting to be recognised by their faiths -
My question becomes - isn't it the job of the respective religious intitutions to legitimize religious aspirations of gay people? The government can't offer any more than equal protection under the law - the churches/mosques/synogoges are the ones that have to offer religious acceptance - I just wonder if it is not two seperate issues. Women still can't be preists - an Apiscopal Gay priest was just publically accepted for the first time recently.
It seems the government should offer the option of civil union - and the churches must decide whether or not to "marry" homosexuals.
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Martin Kuplens-Ewart
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 10, 2003 - 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by Jacob
"Religion", actually, isn't 'against' homosexuality. Christianity is - and this is indeed arguable - and Christians only constitute 30% of the world.
A notion very much in need of debate. It is not Christianity that sets the division, that creates the oppression. Let's not kid ourselves: it is the interpretation of scripture and human morality by other humans that cause certain ways of thinking to be considered sacrosanct.
I must confess that I am constantly amazed by the attitude that many protestant (that is, non-catholic Christians) have toward their faith and clergy. Rather than embracing the Lutheran (as in developed by Luther) approach of personal christianity, that is, developing personal relationships with God, they abrogate that responsibility to a single person - the attitude being that the minister is better educated and has a better understanding, and therefore chance at a relationship with, God.
But a fundamental part of protestantism is the pursuit of one's own understanding of scripture and its relation to one's life. This is why Luther originally translated the Bible from Latin to German, and why its texts are translated in literally hundreds of languages.
The prejudices that we see today come not from a personal understanding, based on study and diverse discussion, but rather from the lecterns of a select few persons who have set themselves up as mini-popes.
The Anglican, Lutheran, Calvinist, etc. churches do not have a spiritual figure that sets policy and belief. To give that power to a single person is to give up five centuries of religious struggle and freedom, and to return to the age of diktatur of faith.
Let the Catholics have their pope and the social catastrophes which that creates. Think for yourselves, people, and remember this: "thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself".
Faith and religion belongs in this discussion, and you'd better be willing to accept that there are some, myself included, who believe that the 'good book' embraces, versus condemns, the love that we feel.
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Martin Kuplens-Ewart
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 10, 2003 - 12:51 PM
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Oh, and what's this tosh about life cycles?
We're not fruit flies or moths!
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Vivek
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 11, 2003 - 11:58 AM
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Originally posted by Jacob
What's your place to judge homosexuals as pitiful, incomplete or worthy of suppression?
You are asking me what my place to pity homosexuals... well... as a human being who has lived in a multi-cultural, mutli-ethnic, multi-religious society all his life... I sure I think I have the right!
Originally posted by Jacob
I don't understand why people continually defer to 'religion' or close-mindedness when this topic comes up. If homosexuality is natural, and we can agree to that much (which you have), why should it not be embraced? Why should we not requestion our fundamental responses to it (thereby, perhaps growing as an individual as well as, perhaps progressing as a society). As much as some like to distort the facts and misjudge circumstance, homosexuality is no more 'destructive' than heterosexuality and no more 'inappropriate'.
Further... coming to your point on why people continually defer to religion... its simply because all religions have played a very crucial role in channelizing human endeavour towards the what was then perceived as good for humanity.
And finally...
Originally posted by Jacob
Greyarmidilo, you should correct your language, you're a young person and it's especially unfortunate if you demain yourself with ignorant thinking.
I believe that you should watch out for your language as well... before I comment on someone else's post.
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Vivek
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 11, 2003 - 11:59 AM
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Originally posted by martin83
Oh, and what's this tosh about life cycles?
We're not fruit flies or moths!
What makes you think we as humans are any different from fruit flies or moths, they are just as alive as we are!!!
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Vivek
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 11, 2003 - 12:00 PM
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Originally posted by ryann
Hey GreyArmadillo - as a female heterosexual who plans to marry next year and then proceed to NEVER pro-create (yes, that means I don't ever plan on having children), I'll have you know that my life is just as complete as yours.
Yah.
Otherwise, the entirity of this thread makes me sad. And makes me laugh. Jeebus.
Hey Ryann... firstly congratulations on your wedding!!!
With all due respect... I fear that you fail to see my point. Its true that there would be absolutely no noticeable difference to you or anyone who is of concern to you if you stick to your decision of not having any children.
But for a moment lets consider a larger perspective. Lets consider yourself as a person and the rest of humanity. If you choose to have children and bring them up you leave a permanent unerasable contribution to the human genepool. And that in my opinion is the best gift any of us can ever give our kind. It has greater influence than all our other efforts for the good of society.
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Vivek
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 11, 2003 - 12:03 PM
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Originally posted by luke
Greyarmadillo - I understand what you are saying about incomplete life cycles - and no I don't think you are a bad person for this.
Please be a bit more careful and sensitive in how you phrase what you are trying to say.
Luke... I agree I may have been slightly rude... despite my best efforts to be as polite as I possibly could.
I would like to reiterate that I don't have anything against gays as people, but the very idea of homosexuality does give me the creeps. Perhaps the reason behind it is the fact I am hetrosexual.
However... that doesn't blind me from seeing the reason why most societies in the world have made conscious efforts over the ages to marginalize homosexuals and ensure that homosexuality as such remains taboo!
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Vivek
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 13, 2003 - 01:17 AM
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Originally posted by Susheela
just looking for some clarification
Susheela.... the amazing truth about human intelligence is that it allows us to live along and put up with things that are not neccesarily ideal. This abstracts the very perception of idealism from our senses.
Unfortunately... nature isn't even half as forgiving as we with our intelligence are. As I have already said earlier in this discussion thread, Pro-creation in my opinion is a fundamental right of any living being. Thus when individuals willfully give up this right of theirs... the only feeling I have for them is that of pity.
I hope I have clarified my point of view.
Regards,
Greyarmadillo
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jesse adams
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
January 7, 2004 - 05:04 AM
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"When Lucy looked through the back of the ardrobe she saw a great forest" the Lion the Wirch and the Wardrobe chapter three
I would like to use this quotation from a book to jutsify my hatred of wardrobes. Every time I put my clothes in the wardrobe they become creased and require extensive ironing.
Abongtas blatent homophobia suggests some issues that may or may not include represed homosexual tendancies. If it wasnt for his blatent rudeness and overinflated self importance it would be laughable. The points made about his intolerance as compared to racism is well founded.
Homosexuality is not a lifestyle choice it is as much a matter of personal preferance as skin color (unless you are Michael Jackson - though he seems to be confused on both points). The difference is with homosexuality the infrastructure of friends and family do not share your sence of isolation. The comments made by Abongta and his supporters suggest a mind set comparable to members of the Ku Klux Klan.
Hugh Luke and Takoid my respects in meeting people who can truly be considered open minded. Abongta Amen my sympathies on your lack of human understanding.
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