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Luke Lieberman
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 9, 2003 - 01:08 AM
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actually guys what you are missing is why Abognta is in this game - what he really is about (as mentioned by Trapper on another thread) is judging others - thereby making himself feel better and more powerful.
Abgonta's 'inner most motive' is simply ego. Have you noticed that he always judges others to his own benefit - he always sees himself as rightous, godly, wise, upright etc and everyone else as evil ignorant heathens.
At the end of the day Abognta is just dealing with self-esteem issues. People who are well adjusted don't feel compelled to constantly put others down.
I'm done refuting his arguements - he is not making any - he thinks he is right just because he says so. He would rather ramble on with sayings so obscure and pointless...
"A fish can never climb a tree" - what the hell is that supposed to mean? It's just stupid - period.
Yesterday he told me that I couldn't understand his meaningless rants because I was at the wrong "frequancy" - and yes Abgonta, I agree - we are at different 'frequencies' I think I met a vagrant on the subway last week who was on your 'frequancy' - except that is an insult to vagrancy.
Anyway Abgonta - your a joke. Your not smarter than people here, your not better than people here, your just a joke - period.
And Mike, if you let this little kid really get under your skin you are giving him way too much credit - for me he is just a clown.
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Ha Thi Lan Anh
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@ abongta
December 9, 2003 - 02:06 AM
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Originally posted by Susheela
this is why people, myself included, get so frustrated with these posts, and are just too fed up to reply and stand up for their points of view. i'm not going to waste my time defending my beliefs to someone who doesn't really care and whose only goal seems to be to 'convert' me. not to mention the fact that these discussions should not be about 'winning' or 'losing'.
she said it all.
plus i find ur wording style not only in this thread but other threads very disturbing.
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Crystal_Abongta
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 9, 2003 - 02:54 AM
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Originally posted by Trapper
You can't force people to agree with you - you can't put them in a box and make them be a certain way.
being different is not a crime.
You can take a horse to the stream but would never force it to drink water. Nobody forces you to change your life style; they are simply saying that being tolerant is not accepting any redundant character from the people around you.
What some of you are trying to do is to prove to the world that evolving in the retrogressive manner should be tolerated. - I just doubt that. Evolution is progression not regression.
I could tolerate smokers around me but not when their smoke chocks me in the throat and makes life unbearable. Its only when I got to the United States before I knew how a society could be suffering from a total moral break down. I don’t blame you guys; I rather understand your plight.
Putting a gold ring on the nostril of a pig would never stop it from going back to mud. It is his nature to be a pig.
“You shall know the truth and only the truth shall set you free”
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 9, 2003 - 03:05 AM
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and that's all the news thats fit to print! I'm over Abgonta, as it is evident that he is not convincing anyone of anything except his own ignorance - lets just ignore him and move on.
We are being distracted from actually discussing the issue by our anger at one obnoxious kid - lets get back to issues.
Yesterday I saw General Clark (democratic contender for president) respond to a question about gay marriage. He thought that gays should be afforded the rights under law, ie survivorship, tax relief, joint insurance etc. in a civil union contract recognised by the government - but not actually be considered marriage because marriage is a religious institution defined as between a man and a woman.
does this work - is this an effective compromise with those who find homosexual 'marriage' an affront to their religious ideals?
or is there no room for compromise in this issue? I'm not sure how I feel about it yet so I'll just throw the question out there.
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Michael Newton-McLaughlin
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 9, 2003 - 04:21 AM
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I warn you all I'm in a pissed off mood, and taking a break from studying.
"Polygamy" is on the list as being sexually immoral, according to Amen. Am I mistaken when I say that polygamy is a part of muslim practice? I have several arab and muslim friends. One of them has brothers that were conceived from 2 different mothers, and it is considered legal and natural. Why the contradiction??
"We tolerate what is plausible, what could be justified to an extend. I am a non-smoker so I can tolerate smokers around me. Tolerance is different from mental slavery, prisoner of conscience."
Damn. If you think that homosexuality is mental slavery and smoking is just a choice, you've never seen a chain smoking woman from arkansas. I've seen someone go through 18 packs a day. That's not slavish? That is quite a bit different from a way someone just is... My dad was born not liking meat, he's a vegetarian. Eating meat makes him gag, he cannot stand it. Does that make him somehow wrong or just different? I guess ya'll cannot get it through your dense ass skulls that some people are different. If you don't like homosexuality, that is your perogative, end of discission. To condone oppression/repression, as has been done for hundreds of years is frankly pretty belicose of you all. It pisses me off. It, really pretty sadly, makes me want to just curse you off as a (explict line of obscenities). Maybe I have just seen to many people get hurt by snake ass fools who decide they should take anothers consenting choice into their own hands. This is not a matter of 'perversion' - if someone rapes a child, sure, they should be locked up. That was without consent.
"There might be Homosexual and Lesbian right movements all over the world trying to justify their course but I can say all of that are just the frantic moves of the dying snake. It’s just a matter of time and they would be extinct. Where are the dinosaurs today? Their time was over and they got extinct. Those would sale above this destructions are the heterosexuals if you ask why, it’s because the world was made for them, and it was inscribed in the living books of the Bible, Koran etc." - Aboganta
You're the dinosaur. Keep digging your ideological grave, but until then, you may want to consider being a part of TIG or not. You joined TIG and at the same time you must have also agreed with the mission and values it has set out to acheive. One of the goals is outlined in our area regarding social justice/human rights. http://understanding.takingitglobal.org/socialjustice
This is not be trying to stiffle discussion, or to reject other people from putting out their opinions. This is me recognizing that Aboganta's values obviously conflict with the goals and motives of this organization. Maybe he should start his own, I would fully support that. It is not that I want to stop discussion on homosexuality, its just that after so many vicious cycles, it is obvious that Aboganta is (1) not going to at least approach the topic with respect, (2) will continue to post things that make me want to vommit up three days of food and suffocate myself with it.
I am fully on the goal of, as Terri said, empowering youth to be able to sound their opinions, even if I disagree with them. There is a difference between working for social justice, working on ideas for empowerment, and being pretty regressive by arguing against such rubbish. Though I do respect and urge Aboganta to speak your mind... you're oobviously not going to get any where here. Maybe I am completely wrong and you should all castigate me now... yay.
::very bad head ache from coffee and sleepless ness::
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Crystal_Abongta
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Get this!
December 9, 2003 - 06:34 AM
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Originally posted by Jedimike
Damn. If you think that homosexuality is mental slavery and smoking is just a choice, you've never seen a chain smoking woman from arkansas.
I didn't go into details did I? I hate smokers ok but I wanted drones like you to see what the society thinks of gays to smokers. I would tolerate a smoker than gay. I don't know who talked of Chain-smokers; i guess a smoker is not the same as a chain-smoker.
Originally posted by Jedimike
You're the dinosaur. Keep digging your ideological grave, but until then, you may want to consider being a part of TIG or not.
Both of us might be the dinosaurs but the differences are that your species would be extinct before you know it. Mine is eternal. I might be digging my ideological grave just as much as you dig your personality grave who wins?
Originally posted by Jedimike
There is a difference between working for social justice, working on ideas for empowerment, and being pretty regressive by arguing against such rubbish. Though I do respect and urge Aboganta to speak your mind... you're oobviously not going to get any where here. Maybe I am completely wrong and you should all castigate me now... yay.
Thank you Jedimike, that was a good try in proving how obsolete that skull of yours seems to be with respect to changing times. I see how much you try to tolerate differences by repressing the very souls you want to tolerate. If the word hypocrisy exists in the dictionary, it’s because the author well thought of people like of you.
A man must not swallow his cough because he is afraid to disturb others. If a nincompoop like yourself finds Abongta unaccommodating, go get into a bottle and I would help cock it for you. You might shout your lungs out if you wish, you may even sound the trumpet out like Joel did in the bible, I bet you such noise would be only at your would calamity. Unlike Joel, you would be inviting your own cataclysm.
Throw a stone into a heap of containers, and that which is empty would certainly make the loudest noise, that’s just exemplary of you. Fritting about and composing such junk just tells me you don’t master the art neither do you know what you are writing about. You are just behaving like a man caught pants-down in a treacherous act. When a man is drowning, he can hang even on a serpent.
Just some lessons for you ok; we read the recipe then we bake the cake, I hardly know of the reverse except you would be revealing a new discovery.
What you want me to accept in this forum is that homosexuality is just another normal life style, and that as human, I aught to accept and tolerate their life style. You expect me to sit and watch your folk wallow in a kind of moral epilepsy with indifference not so? Then the problem is certainly with your cerebellum.
What you don’t know is that when the HIV would have been at a manageable state, the next global crisis would be homosexuality; it’s been on for so long now. The medics and psychiatrists etc the world over would certainly go back to the laboratory to find out what they are made of and a way of reinserting them into the circular and normal life styles.
What you seem to forget is that there is always and excuse for everything. The problem is whether the excuse is plausible. Even the fox would tell you why it’s good to be cunning; the pig would tell you why it’s important to stay in mud.
On the animal classification table, we learn that there is a hierarchical classification of animals and that those above are better than those below for several reasons. I wonder where homosexuals fit on this table, ever thought of that? I’ve hardly met birds or dogs of same sex copulating neither have I met grass hoppers of same sex getting attracted to each other. So do we say homosexuals are far below these animals? Certainly true. May be we keep them with the arachnida. Certainly even the law of natural selection would hardly favor them. Too bad!
Its sad that human beings could be this obsolete like computers, it makes me shed tears to realize that a category of beasts have invaded the human flesh just like the semi-reptiles that shape-shift.
Yet somebody stands courageously to tell me I am wrong, I am mad and so on… what a shame. I understand your position you know, a baby hardly knows much than the few words his mother utter daily. It would be news if homosexuals and pro-homosexuals see beyond their noses into the intricate fabrics of living a sane life.
The societal turmoil’s plaguing the world today are fired to an extend by them; they are fragmenting the church, governments etc. how can a group of people’s life style be that of spreading emotional, social, and mental discord and chaos?
I don’t care what you believe but the truth is that I am the winner because before God and man I am right in what I am saying and happily enough you know it.
God save us
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Michael Newton-McLaughlin
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 9, 2003 - 07:12 AM
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Pre-script: Luke, yeah, I should not have let Aboganta get under my skin... I read my post after I got some decent sleep and his response. My initial reaction was to write a scathing response. Then my sixth grade teacher's voice rang in my ears. "If you are on the road next to a ditch and come accross a whino, offer your hand, but don not get down there with him. You just get trapped in a ditch with a whino." So yeah... its obvious you all have outstretched your hands to n oavail. I put my foot in the ditch. I decided to just put it in my mouth and ignore him, heh.
<<Yesterday>>
Well... War-criminal Clark puts forth the idea I used to hold.... because I sort of felt the same way... marriage was over rated any how. Who needs a title, so long as you have the same legal rights involved?
Well... I cam accross a couple that were Jewish and gay. To them, marriage was very important - because it was there to fulfill certain things about their religious ideals. Marriage, to them, was a union before God. The argument that just because it offends others, even if they have legal rights, is the same compormise argued by southern dixiecrats when inter-racial marriage was challenged.
Indeed, inter-racial marriage was an afront to many peoples religious/cultural ideals. Does that mean that we should have just accomodated one point of view at the expense of anothers... when granting marriage to inter-racial couples did not infringe on anyones rights? Could we not make the same argument for homosexuality.
I came to the realization that to say "You can have the legal rights but not the societal ones" can often be just as painful and sordid. Making the 'compromise' that War-criminal Clark presents jut essentially is cop-out I think. It is giving ground on the issue of if it is ok to harmfully discriminate on the basis of of sexual or partner preference. That is not ok with me. How do others feel?
or is there no room for compromise in this issue? I'm not sure how I feel about it yet so I'll just throw the question out there.
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Hugh Switzer
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 9, 2003 - 10:35 AM
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The below post is meant in the nicest possible way and is used to illustrate points. I am not racist in any way, shape or form, but *someone* made me pull out the card...
Abongta, I hardly know where to start.
I'm not sure if I should begin with the random quotes from a book that can not be proven or maybe your analogy of homosexuals to animals.
Quite frankly, if I was not a moderator, I would bring out Mr. Race card and mash you into a fine powder, but I couldn't do that. I would be showing that I did not TOLERATE people of other race. I mean, Hitler said he was doing what the Lord wanted (see my other post).
Throw a stone into a heap of containers, and that which is empty would certainly make the loudest noise...
wow... that is so profound... I'm not sure what to do. Here.. I'll quote you some random rhetoric to make my argument sound like yours.
Enjoy:
Pardon my driving, I am reloading.
A girl phoned me the other day and said .... Come on over, there’s nobody home. I went over. Nobody was home.
I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met.
Ah.. that makes me feel better. Ohh... I've got a good one for you!
"Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house."
See? That's you.. you're the person in the house (you being a minority), and you're throwing the stones of "intolerance" all around you. I hope you have a good glazier.
I’ve hardly met birds or dogs of same sex copulating neither have I met grass hoppers of same sex getting attracted to each other.
There actually used to be a site that existed that had pictures of supposedly homosexual dogs. I also can't imagine that you would ever notice a homosexual grasshopper, unless, of course you enjoy sitting in a field watching grasshoppers copulate...
Its sad that human beings could be this obsolete like computers, it makes me shed tears to realize that a category of beasts have invaded the human flesh just like the semi-reptiles that shape-shift.
Really? I've never seen one of those.. Have you? No? Oh... that disappoints me. I hear, though, that there are people who turn into werewolves at night... you better be wary of them... since they OBVIOUSLY exist.
I don’t care what you believe but the truth is that I am the winner because before God and man I am right in what I am saying and happily enough you know it.
The true words of someone who is losing. People constantly question your reasoning, and all you can come up with is that in a book, they said some things and therefore you are right. I read this book once about the KKK, apparently afrian-americans are a burden on society and should all be shot because of the evil they create in the world... wow... with your reasoning, I'm just going to have to believe that total bullsh*t.
**Edited Dec. 9th**
I would like to clarify that I have no desire to physically grind Abongta into a fine powder, but it is his arguments that I proceeded to grind into a fine powder.
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Crystal_Abongta
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Good work!
December 9, 2003 - 11:07 AM
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Originally posted by hugh
Quite frankly, if I was not a moderator, I would bring out Mr. Race card and mash you into a fine powder....
A good post for the dustbin, no mater how hard we try, a fish would never climb a tree but I guess a monkey can swim isn’t it?
Just tell me who made you a moderator here and I would save your head from the guillotine if at all it’s worth saving.
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Hugh Switzer
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 9, 2003 - 11:23 AM
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a) Do you now see how it feels when someone takes something out of context? I posted my post to illustrate a point and to show you what your posts look like in the eyes of other people. A new feeling, isn't it?
b) Fish can't climb trees because they require water to live. Now if you put the monkey under the water, it wouldn't last very long.
And for the grand finale!
Drum roll please!
c) Who made me a moderator? Well.. after volunteering with TIG and then being HIRED by TIG that led to it mostly. I also now do this on my own while I go to school and volunteer my time in other places all at the same time. Specifically who made me a moderator this time? I think it was Susheela, or maybe it was Rob, or maybe Mike.. hmm.. I can't quite remember now.
I implore you to contact any of those people. They would be more than happy to listen to your concerns. If you need their email addresses, I would be happy to send them to you. You can contact me here, via TIG IM or via email: hugh@takingitglobal.org
Oh, and a quick note: If you think my post is offensive to you, please try to imagine how many emails we get (as a moderators, staff, etc.) about your postings. I think you'd be surprised, really.
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Shaye
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 9, 2003 - 11:42 AM
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First of all i am really happy to have found this site, and to have found a place were people are as passionate about the same issues as I am! Look forward to getting to know as many of you as i can! 
Back to this debate on homosexuality, I didn't have time to read every message, but i did get pretty mad and amused with what i did read.
I personally do not believe in homosexuality... however i have friends, good friends that are lesbian, they understand that my beliefs differ from theirs and its ok. I would never stop being friends with somoene just because we didnt agree! It's ridiculous to say that gays and lesbians should be stopped from having the freedom to do as they wish, it is nobody's, absolutly nobody's business what someone else is doing in their own bedroom.
For them to get married however is ridiculous. I say this simply because you can't change the meaning of a word because you happen to dislike the meaning.
Shaye
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Crystal_Abongta
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 9, 2003 - 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by hugh
Oh, and a quick note: If you think my post is offensive to you, please try to imagine how many emails we get (as a moderators, staff, etc.) about your postings. I think you'd be surprised, really.
Ah so you think! On the contrary I don’t think so. I am one of those who would not permit the behavior or writings of others to tell me how I should feel less I behave sheepishly.
Personally, I pay little attention to what people do or say. Instead I try to see their innermost motives for speaking and acting. That’s the rule of the enlightened man.
You take a giant step towards psychological maturity when you refuse to angrily defend yourself against unjust slander. For one thing, resistance disturbs your own peace.
I am the one on the riverbank stretching my hand to the drowning man.
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Hugh Switzer
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 9, 2003 - 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by Abongta
Personally, I pay little attention to what people do or say. Instead I try to see their innermost motives for speaking and acting. That’s the rule of the enlightened man.
Rather than post more quotes that have nothing to do with anything, I would like to repond to this idea.
I think that, in general, people are so offended and taken aback from your posts because they cannot see your "innermost motives for speaking and acting/" The frustration is furthered when you post information that some people do not hold as being true (namely the Bible) or feel is only partially fact.
When discussion is presented, your argument revolves around the same source every time, while most of the facts that others post come from a soruce of UN-BIASED publications that are, for the most part, fact.
If you gave people something that they could actually believe, then it's likely that people might be able to understand why you feel that way you do, even if they still disagree with you.
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ryann
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 10, 2003 - 01:20 AM
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Hey GreyArmadillo - as a female heterosexual who plans to marry next year and then proceed to NEVER pro-create (yes, that means I don't ever plan on having children), I'll have you know that my life is just as complete as yours.
Yah.
Otherwise, the entirity of this thread makes me sad. And makes me laugh. Jeebus.
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Michael Newton-McLaughlin
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 10, 2003 - 01:33 AM
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<<First - how about we just call him General Clark - ok
But you brought up some solid points about them wanting to be recognised by their faiths -
My question becomes - isn't it the job of the respective religious intitutions to legitimize religious aspirations of gay people? The government can't offer any more than equal protection under the law - the churches/mosques/synogoges are the ones that have to offer religious acceptance - I just wonder if it is not two seperate issues. Women still can't be preists - an Apiscopal Gay priest was just publically accepted for the first time recently.
It seems the government should offer the option of civil union - and the churches must decide whether or not to "marry" homosexuals.>>
I'll call leaders of war crimes what they are.. war criminals. But that is really aside from the issue.
You are correct, if marriage is done by a church, then a person with authority to marry must indeed agree to do so - for any marriage. However, when someone wants to receive a marriage, they do not have to go through a religious institution - it can be to a judge, who then issues a MARRIAGE LICENSE. We have, as has been done quite a bit in many societies, syncritized law with religious convention. If the name 'marriage' was no longer a legal, government termed (aka - no marriage licenses were issued) and they were all called something else (like civil union) - that is fine.
My problem is trying to, legally make 'homosexual' union and 'heterosexual' union seperate. They are different - but only in the same way as a jewish marriage versus a star trek reno one.. it is a matter of ceremony/who is involved. When we draw distinctions between what names we use for things, we run into problems. Social convention looks at 'marriage' as the 'official' status of union between two people. Creating a seperate (but equal???) name, I think, is a euphemism for 'one is better than the other' - if not legally, socially.
I do not think that the government should participate in de jure descrimination. The societal factors/issues that alternative sexes face in society at a defacto level is great enough, the government can do its part by setting precedent. That precedent should, I believe, one of equality- not despicable compromises that are good for political maneuvering. That is not, IMHO, moving towards a more tolerant society, rather than increased dubauchery.
Also: there are women priests.
1971: Anglican communion, Hong Kong. Joyce Bennett and Jane Hwang were the first regularly ordained priests.
1974: Episcopal Church: 11 women were ordained as priests in Philadelphia.
1975: Four women are ordained as priests in Washington
1976: The General Convention votes to allow female ordination; the 15 illegal ordinations are regularized.
1976: Six female priests are ordained by the Anglican Church in Canada.
1977: Five female priests are ordained by the Anglican Church of New Zealand.
1978: The Lambeth conference recommended that women be ordained as priests throughout the communion.
1983: A woman priest is ordained in Kenya
1983: Three women priests are ordained in Uganda.
1987: Women are ordained as deacons in Australia.
1987: A woman deacon is ordained in England.
1990: Women are ordained as priests in Ireland.
1992: Church of England ordained its first female priest. About 500 male clergy left the church in protest.
1992: Australia ordains ten female priests.
1992: Anglican Church of South Africa ordains a female priest.
1992: Women are ordained as priests in the Philippines
1998: General Assembly of the Nippon Sei Ko Kai (Anglican Church in Japan) approves female ordination to the priesthood.
(Source: religioustolerance.org)
- Did you mean Catholic priests? As I understand, there is one catholic woman who is a priest, in Canada I believe. Any how...
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