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Amen el saadany
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the legal position of gays in Egypt.
November 28, 2003 - 03:22 AM
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Hi all,
I readed the legal conflict between the members .for that I will try to illustrate you the legal position of gays in Egypt (their rights and obligations).
The Egyptian penal law didn’t make any stipulations about the relations between gays.
And the main principle in the penal law is: “there is no crime nor punishment without been
Stipulated by law”. For that gays in Egypt are not punished by law for doing their incest acts (sexual intercourse between gays), but that doesn’t mean they are allowed to make there obscene act. As they may do their incest act in closed places (houses for instance) but they can not make it in public places, if they do so they will be punished by art.278 of the Egyptian penal law: “any body do an overt obscene act which hurt human conscience will be punished by law…”
And about the incident said by “Mamduh” in the first page “On May 11, 2001, police raided a floating nightclub on the Nile that was known to be a "gay hangout," and arrested around 52 men for debauchery”.
If the gays did an overt obscene act or instigate people for debauchery, and arrested by police, it will be considered as shaped and legal enforcement of the penal law. the art.269 of penal law stipulate that: “…any body instigate people in street or in pubic place for debauchery by signs or verbal will be punished by law…”.
As it’s well known that the nightclub is a public place, for that if the court decided that the delicts are guilty, this judgement will be considered as a valid one according to the provisions of law.
Remark: if this incest act is not criminalised by Egyptian law in closed places but our traditions and religion forbids us to do this kind of act, and if the citizens just feel that this incest act will be done in specified place they will abstain the gays by force and may
Punish them(the gays) by themselves(the citizens).
For that after couple of days I will make suggestion as a bill of law, not in favor of the ordinary man nor for the abnormal one but for the entire society.
And I wish that this scientific and legal ideas to be adopted by the Egyptian constitutional departments (the executive and parliamentary powers) and also to be adopted by the united nations by making an international protocol which bound all member states to apply it.
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Amen el saadany
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internationl protocol for gays, lesbians and bisexuals
December 2, 2003 - 06:21 AM
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Hi all,
The facts:
Their is no doubt that gays, lesbians and bisexuals as part the community have rights and also responsible to fulfill their obligations.
Gays, lesbians and bisexuals do their incest act without control, as they may make sexual intercourse with each other today and after a couple of days they may make the incest act with others. This uncontrolled behavior may lead to a disaster, as it may lead to widespread of sexual diseases if one of them is inflected.
The symptoms STD's, like gonorrhea or chlamydia, may have no noticeable symptoms whatsoever. Symptoms or not, STD's are dangerous if left untreated. Untreated chlamydia or gonorrhea can result in sterility and inflammation, and untreated syphilis can result in death.
Some STD's are incurable. Human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection will lead to AIDS and death. Human papillomavirus (HPV) can result in pain, genital warts, cancer, and death. Hepatitis B is also very serious. Herpes, though not fatal, is a lifelong menace.
And will lead to the god curse, as it is well known that the sexual intercourse between gays is prohibited in all heaven religions, as the Islamic religion prohibited it and also do the Christian one.
This message, like all other true Bible messages, is designed both for believers and disbelieves. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17, so the purpose of the Bible revelation is to create believers of those who would learn. The fact that premarital sex, fornication, homosexuality, are laughed at by the world should be of little consequence to one who seeks for truth, or to one who believes the truth. It is the truth that shall make you free (John 8:32).
Paul writes in I Corinthians 6:9-11, "Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners shall inherit the Kingdom of God".
*For all this reasons we can not let gays, lesbians and bisexuals go behind their sexual instinct without been controlled or abstained.
As it is well known that gays may have disorder in glandual secretion, which lead to abnormality, and gays may fell the incapacity of identifying the scope.
*There are many other forms of reckless sexuality, which I will not expound upon here. These include:
 Prostitution
 Anonymous Sexual Encounters
 "One-Night Stands" or Nymphomania
 Sexual Addiction
 Orgies or Group Sex
 Polygamy
 Pedophilia
 Deviant Sexual Practices (Sado-Masochism, Bestiality, Necrophilia, etc.).
If you are engaging in any of these practices, you have issues, which probably cannot be resolved simply by reading this article. I encourage you to get professional help immediately, before you hurt yourself or someone else.
*From the point of view of legal theory there is no necessary connection between the criminal and moral law. But the act, which hurt the human conscience and social coexistence, should be criminated.
As the sexual intercourse between gays, lesbians and bisexuals are considered a serious transgression if one of them is infected with sexual diseases, as they violates a fundamental condition of social coexistence and threat the community with fatal diseases, which are incurable just now. As a consequence they violate the main principle of the state made for the protection of the members of the state.
Nowadays the struggle against criminality uses not only penalties but also security measures and pure social methods.
The science of penology can be divided into prevention science and treatment science.
* Prevention science: operates before the commission of the illegal act.
* Treatment science: takes place after the occurrence of the crime.
To emend the criminal and avoid his recidivism. The science of struggle against criminality suggests the ideal methods of prevention and treatment.
The protocol suggested:
The wrongdoer should be interned in special establishment, which combine between loss of liberty with providing the medical treatment.
We must show the methods of treatment in the special establishment:
1) The medical treatment:
A) Psychological.
B) Physical (through use of sex hormones or surgery).
2) The religion education.
3) The instruction and professional training.
4) The maintenance of wrongdoer’s relation with the external society, relations and friends under the control of the establishment’s officers.
5) The suspension of sexual stimulant through suitable medicaments and sports.
6) The postcare after release.
 what’s needed from united nations :
1) To supply the countries, which doesn’t have experts in this field with the professionals required.
2) To grant the developing countries funds needed to establish these special institutions as a cooperation between the member states of United Nations.
This protocol suggested made to prevent gays, lesbians and bisexuals to encounter stigmatization, opposition, and condemnation.
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Terri Willard
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 2, 2003 - 06:35 AM
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I'm a little lost, Amen... Are you suggesting that:
a) Homosexuals on average have more sexual partners than heterosexuals;
b) Homosexuals have a greater tendency to spread STDs than heterosexuals; and
c) For their own good and that of society, homosexuals must be locked away and re-educated so that they do not infect others with these diseases ????
And that this is somehow for our own good?
ROTFL..... I haven't laughed so hard in a long time.
"I laugh because I must not cry. That is all. That is all." - Abraham Lincoln
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 2, 2003 - 06:45 AM
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jeez there are some real *beep* out there when it comes to gay rights -
this stuff is so stupid its scary.
***Edited by Hugh. December 3rd, 2003***
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Terri Willard
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 2, 2003 - 06:53 AM
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Mmmmmm.... polite dialogue, Luke. Polite dialogue... Even when it's hard. Especially when it's hard.
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Hugh Switzer
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 3, 2003 - 01:11 AM
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Wow... I'm not sure if I should close this thread because of the gross and outright lies that are stated.. or the fact that all Aman does is attack people that are different then he is...
Hmm..
Oh.. and Terri? I don't think I've ever seen you use slang before... "ROTFL"ing is strictly forbidden around here :P
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 3, 2003 - 01:39 AM
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It was a simple observation, your friend from Nigeria, you, Amen - are all from the same general area. I'm not trying to draw in large implications as I don't think we are dealing with a very large sample and so don't have a very accurate picture. Take it for what its worth.
Anyway, your meaningless demogogery aside about them being a dying snake lost in a lyberenth. The Gay Rights movment has been gaining momentum over the last 30 years, not losing it.
And the Truth, which everyone knows but you and a few cronies, is that love and acceptance is a higher goal than fear and oppression. Maybe you are totally oblivious to the multitude of vioces round you - but the truth is plainly that we think homosexuals should be treated with the same dignity as everyone else - or haven't you been listening.
Its getting a bit pathetic when you try to tell people what they beleive - as though you know better than they do.
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Hugh Switzer
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All over again
December 3, 2003 - 01:51 AM
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Originally posted by Abongta
Like one friend from Nigeria wrote, homosexuality is a critical illness and seams to be as dangerous as the HIV. It infects the mind, the brain and soul etc. These components of the human person function like lymphocytes in the body to produce what agglomerates to form morals, the basis of the conscience.
It’s not a question of geographical location; morals are not fabricated in Africa or the other places you mention. They are an integral part of every upright individual all over the world and when you lose immunity of the conscience, you depreciate just like and HIV patient with the terminal stage of getting into homosexuality if it really has to get to that level.
Hmm... So then you agree that what Hitler did was right then. I see. If he had the same set of morals as the rest of the world and everyone agreed, you would be dead. I find this interesting.
I don’t need references to justify what I am saying, you as well as everybody else know that’s the truth, remember “You shall know the truth and only the truth shall set you free” you might arguer this but that’s the truth we all know it.
Well.. then no one will believe you. To chide yourself into thinking that you are automatically right is a joke. If you don't provide examples of TRUTH then you're lying. Thanks for coming out.
There might be Homosexual and Lesbian right movements all over the world trying to justify their course but I can say all of that are just the frantic moves of the dying snake.
Then you should stop asking for equal rights too. There are racial movements all over the world.. are they not working?
Where are the dinosaurs today? Their time was over and they got extinct.
It's called a meteor. If one hit earth right now.. we'd be wiped out. Again, thanks for coming out.
If you carry the Bible and God as your only source.. let me read you a quote.
"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator.
By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."
Hmm... Now that's a funny quote. He says that he is doing what the Lord is telling him to do. Now you'll counter saying that it is his own interpretation of the Bible.. and I agree.. but unless you agree with the quote and the person who said it.. I can't happen but take what you say as your own guess at what the Bible is trying to say.
Guess who said that...? Hitler. ([Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936])
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Martin Kuplens-Ewart
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Sources
December 3, 2003 - 02:00 AM
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Being new to University, I've been very excited by the idea of citing sources for opinion, 'fact', etc.
So...
...I went thru Amen's post, and tried to dig up the sources for his info...
As you can see, most of the attributable information is either from articles on safer sex practices, mainly targeted at heterosexual coupling, or from fundamentalist spew, or from biblical tracts of abstinence before marriage.
Hardly damning evidence against homosexuality/legal position of gays in Egypt, and most certainly not legitimate basis for the arguments presented by Amen, above.
-m
------------------
“The symptoms STD's, like gonorrhea or chlamydia, may have no noticeable symptoms whatsoever. Symptoms or not, STD's are dangerous if left untreated. Untreated chlamydia or gonorrhea can result in sterility and inflammation, and untreated syphilis can result in death. […] Some STD's are incurable. Human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection will lead to AIDS and death. Human papillomavirus (HPV) can result in pain, genital warts, cancer, and death. Hepatitis B is also very serious. Herpes, though not fatal, is a lifelong menace.”---. “Responsible Sex and STD’s” in “Birth Control Basics Guide”. 03 Dec. 2003
<http://guide.fateback.com/2.html>.
"And will lead to the god curse, as it is well known that the sexual intercourse between gays is prohibited in all heaven religions, as the Islamic religion prohibited it and also do the Christian one.”Possibly (“is prohibited in all […] religions”) from:
Dr. A. Majid Katme in Luke Ford, “The Islamic Sexual Position”. 03 Dec. 2003
<http://www.lukeford.net/archives/updates/030625.htm> [3rd para]
“This message, like all other true Bible messages, is designed both for believers and disbelieves. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17, so the purpose of the Bible revelation is to create believers of those who would learn. The fact that premarital sex, fornication, homosexuality, are laughed at by the world should be of little consequence to one who seeks for truth, or to one who believes the truth. It is the truth that shall make you free (John 8:32).
Paul writes in I Corinthians 6:9-11, "Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners shall inherit the Kingdom of God".”Highland Heights Church of Christ. “Tract #901 – Sex Before Marriage”. 03 Dec. 2003
<http://www.highlandheights.net/biblecall/901.htm>.
*There are many other forms of reckless sexuality, which I will not expound upon here. These include:
- Prostitution
- Anonymous Sexual Encounters
- "One-Night Stands" or Nymphomania
- Sexual Addiction
- Orgies or Group Sex
- Polygamy
- Pedophilia
- Deviant Sexual Practices (Sado-Masochism, Bestiality, Necrophilia, etc.).
If you are engaging in any of these practices, you have issues, which probably cannot be resolved simply by reading this article. I encourage you to get professional help immediately, before you hurt yourself or someone else.”----. “Responsible Sexual Choices and You (Let’s talk about safe sex)”. 03 Dec. 2003
< http://www.epigee.org/guide/sexuality.html>. [under “Other Problems”]
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 3, 2003 - 03:51 AM
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Achem, sorry for that previous blunt remark - I was just clearing my throat.
There seems to be a number of angry vioces coming from Africa and Christianity in that region. The Canadians and Americans, and I think most Europeans are a bit more accepting of homosexual behavior. They are more secular societies. There is certainly intolorance in Western countries but -
"The protocol suggested: The wrongdoer should be interned in special establishment, which combine between loss of liberty with providing the medical treatment" - Amen
I can't beleive you mention the loss of liberty as though it is a positive idea. Freedom is good. Part of embracing freedom is learning to live with whose who are different from you.
The only way for you to be free is if you encourage the freedoms of others. As Martin Luthar King said "A threat to freedom anywhere is a threat to freedom everywhere." If you take away the liberty of others you will automatically take liberty away from yourself.
This rhetoric has now popped up in more than one voice - The situation - they are scared of people who are different from themselves - and at this particular moment, homosexuals are a convenient thing to be intolorent about -
So the solution is to round up this ambigious enemy (Anyone could be GAY) - and put them into a box - and experiment on them until they are magically not gay anymore - Then the new "cured" individual can come back out normal - just like you and me - and the world would be a less scary place because now everyone is the same.
There is something sort of pathetic about this idea. It lacks all imagination - it is a small idea for the future - it has no vision. I could continue on about how the reality of this idea will be far different than these small minded fools expect.
Imagine a world where you need to be suspicoius of your neighbors because he might be committing a moral crime - or he might be reporting you for one.
Remember that. That is why intolorance will never work in the long run - ultimately man is compelled toward mastery, towards trust, towords freedom - and that will be our future, any other is unnacceptable.
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Crystal_Abongta
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All over again
December 3, 2003 - 05:04 AM
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Originally posted by luke
There seems to be a number of angry vioces coming from Africa and Christianity in that region. The Canadians and Americans, and I think most Europeans are a bit more accepting of homosexual behavior. They are more secular societies. There is certainly intolorance in Western countries but...
I hope you wrote this just to keep the conversation going and not that you really meant your words.
We tolerate what is plausible, what could be justified to an extend. I am a non-smoker so I can tolerate smokers around me. Tolerance is different from mental slavery, prisoner of conscience.
When it comes to homosexuality, there is no comparison; it is entirely a different scope that should never embody tolerance. Homosexuality has no justification anywhere on the globe. Only pro-homosexuals (practical or mental) support this kind of insanity.
Like one friend from Nigeria wrote, homosexuality is a critical illness and seams to be as dangerous as the HIV. It infects the mind, the brain and soul etc. These components of the human person function like lymphocytes in the body to produce what agglomerates to form morals, the basis of the conscience. It’s not for nothing that homosexuals make up those who have lost touch with their consciences.
It’s not a question of geographical location; morals are not fabricated in Africa or the other places you mention. They are an integral part of every upright individual all over the world and when you lose immunity of the conscience, you depreciate just like and HIV patient with the terminal stage of getting into homosexuality if it really has to get to that level.
You might think me insane as I am sure you are certain to think. Homosexuals are like people in a pathless jungle (call it a labyrinth) finding a way out. There is this man standing on a hill top and seeing what they are desperately doing below, he sees the way out and can show them the way. The lost people only need to look up to him and be salvaged. Care to know who the man on the hill top is? I’ll tell you, he’s a heterosexual.
I don’t need references to justify what I am saying, you as well as everybody else know that’s the truth, remember “You shall know the truth and only the truth shall set you free” you might arguer this but that’s the truth we all know it.
There might be Homosexual and Lesbian right movements all over the world trying to justify their course but I can say all of that are just the frantic moves of the dying snake. It’s just a matter of time and they would be extinct. Where are the dinosaurs today? Their time was over and they got extinct. Those would sale above this destructions are the heterosexuals if you ask why, it’s because the world was made for them, and it was inscribed in the living books of the Bible, Koran etc.
You still have the time to make the honest choice…
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 3, 2003 - 07:16 AM
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Hehehehehehe - Hugh that was quitea fun read.
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Terri Willard
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 3, 2003 - 08:18 AM
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We've been around this circle with Abongta several times in a couple of other threads and he's made his position pretty clear... It's one that I find horrifying, but clear.
So, I'd like to suggest that we return in this thread to addressing the concerns raised by Amen re: whether or not it might be legally justifiable in Egypt to lock up homosexuals in re-education centres in order to prevent the spread of sexually transmitted diseases (STDs).
Amen, just a terminology clarification first; in English, incest is a term which refers to sexual activities between family members. Homosexual activities and incest are two different topics. If you want to refer to sexual activities, just call them sexual activities, NOT incest acts.
Martin, many thanks for the quick reference guide and citation sources. They are very helpful. And its a good reminder that all ideas have a history and are associated with particular viewpoints. It's crucial when doing research to get to know the history/perspectives of the groups which you are drawing your knowledge from.
That way you can understand their particular biases.
Ok... let's tackle some of the underlying issues which Amen has laid before us.
1) Linkages between homosexuality and STDs - Amen, as far as I can tell, you are correct in stating that homosexuals have a higher rate of STDs on average than heterosexuals. The few medical studies which have been conducted in N. America and Europe indicate that gay and bi-sexual men have higher levels of exposure to STDs than the population at large. http://www.metrokc.gov/health/glbt/drbob/ provides access to a number of articles on studies done in Seattle, USA by the department of Public Health. In terms of looking at STD prevalence amongst gay or bi-sexual women, typically, it has been assumed that these groups have been at lower risk than their heterosexual counterparts for STDs. However, research conducted in Sydney, Australia (http://sti.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/76/5/345)indicates that these assumptions may not be correct.
2) The fallacy of legislating people "on average" - While it is likely true that ON AVERAGE, homosexuals have a higher likelihood of being infected with STD -- particular individuals will vary in their behaviour... influencing their risk factors and disease profiles. Many homosexual men and women are in monogamous relationships and have low STD risk factors. Many heterosexual women and men engage in risky sexual behaviours and have high numbers of sexual partners. If your concern is disease transmission, then you should be developing programmes and policies which will apply specifically to the individuals who transmit STDs - NOT categories of people based on average rates. If your true concern is public health, you would be arguing that ALL people (of any sexual orientation) who transmit STDs should be liable to fines or re-education about the impact of their activites (like drunken drivers) - NOT arguing that these programmes should apply in a blanket-fashion to all homosexuals, but that heterosexuals should be exampt.
3) Education versus confinement - Recognizing that different cultural appraoches exist, liberal democracies tend to reserve forced confinement for extreme cases of public harm. In most cases, education is preferred. It's only in recent years that some places in the US and Europe have started to consider HIV as a deadly weapon (http://www.aegis.com/news/wsj/1997/WJ971101.html) and pass laws stating that an HIV+ person who does not inform his/her partner of that status may be criminally liable. In some places, the sentence may include up to 10 years in jail. Even then, these laws continue to be highly controversial and rarely enforced.
If you are interested in public health legislation, deal with public health and actual behaviours - NOT making legislation effecting categories of people per se. And please take a more staggered approach to dealing with individuals which moves from education first before leaping into punitive measures and forcible confinement.
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Amen el saadany
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provision added to the protocol
December 8, 2003 - 06:54 AM
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Hi all,
I get shocked from your reactions; you just care about your sexual instinct, and don’t care about the god curse or the goodness of your community.
What you will say to your god when he ask you, why you did this prohibited act, in the time the treatment and cure is available.
I wonder why the treatment between your hands, and you just leave it and choose to be abnormal.
Every one has his religion, which must be respected by taking all measures needed to preserve and caring it out.
*About the protocol which get you very angry from me, it’s just a draft of protocol which I preferred to put it in discussion, to entitle you to claim for your rights, provided it doesn’t breach the public orders.
I advice you to write an extraordinary and unusual ideas which may help you to fulfill your ends. It’s not necessary to acquire all your rights at once, bit by bit you will get what you want.
For instance we may add to the protocol the following provision, in favor the bisexuals, as their case is very complicated, because they have physical abnormality:
1) For bisexuals, if the treatment is not available or dangerous or they afraid to make a surgery, they will be entitled to:
A) Marry each other provided that, the couples are of opposite sex (bisexual apparent male with bisexual apparent female).
B) Adopt children, provided that the child is bisexual.
*The paragraph (B) is made for the goodness of the both parties (the child and the adopter) as the adopter will be aware of the sexual problem facing the child in the different phase of age, and the child will live in a healthy life far from racial discrimination.
Take your time to suggest a useful provisions.
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Matt Wolpert
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国家：United States
Province/State: California
城市: Venice
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Re: the legal position of gays in Egypt.
December 8, 2003 - 07:09 AM
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ahh - why do we bother? Its not like Amen is listening.
You want some useful suggestions for you protocol - throw it out, burn it, forget it.
You need to respect other people's right to decide their own lives. If someone wants to be a homosexual - its their life, its their choice. You decide what to do with your life.
They do not share your religion, they do not share your views on life. They are not asking you to "cure" them. You are not doing them a favor by throwing them in prison and experimenting on them.
How would you like it if my god told me that you were not allowed to be Muslim. My religion is the only way - people like you need to be put in prison and "cured" - would you like that? Would you thank me for imprisoning you?
You can't force people to agree with you - you can't put them in a box and make them be a certain way.
being different is not a crime.
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