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Kathryn Sabo

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US Drone Strikes
May 11, 2012

What are the global implications of the US targeted attack program?

After the September 11th attack on the US, President George Bush instigated a campaign of targeted attacks against suspected Al Qaeda. This campaign has continued under the Obama administration.

The Human Rights Watch calls upon the US to clarify fully and publicly its legal rationale for conducting targeted attacks and put legal limits on them.

To date it has not done so, which raises broader concerns, including among US allies, about the lawfulness of its actions and creates a dangerous model that may be followed by other governments.


What do you guys think?

This post was edited on: 2012-05-11 at 03:04 PM by: Kathryn Sabo (Moderator)

This post was edited on: 2012-05-11 at 03:10 PM by: Kathryn Sabo (Moderator)

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Kathryn Sabo

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Re: US Drone Strikes
May 11, 2012

here is the link to my full post...I couldn't post it all on the DB

http://kathrynsabo.tigblog.org/post/7580439
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Mohammad Ali

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Re: US Drone Strikes
May 16, 2012

The US drone strikes are a constant source of suffering in my part of the world. While the US government may see the strikes as a measure designed to check militant activities, in reality, the drones have become almost symbolic of US opression in Pakistan. They have become frontline propaganda, continually helping to swell the Taliban's ranks with supporters. IMO, the Us needs a much more subtle strategy, and needs to let Pakistan handle it's own problem


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Kerry Burns

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Re: US Drone Strikes
May 28, 2012

It seems to me Kathryn, that in the main, the USA considers itself above the laws that the rest of the planet attempts to put in place.
More broken and ignored laws will not help.
Their government is driven by too many appetites for gain, to limit its encroachment on the rights and territory of others.

The propaganda machine is so effective, that the majority of the population appear to feel they have the right to deny other countries the weapons they themselves use to subjugate the rest of the world.
Prisoners can be tortured in the "Home of the brave, land of the free".
The right to kill anyone, anywhere, is now assumed by an administration which has no moral compass -- only the desire, openly stated, to dominate the world.

I meet a particular kind of American here in England, the kind that has a passport.
I understand they are but a tiny percentage of the population of America, so my observations may not be very accurate in general, but those who I've met, and worked for, (I'm a blacksmith) have been a delight to know, and not at all like the unpleasant stereotype we English often critisise.

However, when I participated in a largely American forum, the views expressed often seemed to come from a previous century.
World peace is apparently a question of superior American firepower, we just need to feel sufficiently scared, and then we'll all be safe.
I found it very hard to accept that intelligent people could hold views which were completely inhuman and immoral.

The world has changed since Saudi Arabia bombed New York.
That became the perfect excuse for the incredible warmongering we have seen since then.
Apart from the unimaginable loss of life, essential waterways, constructed by Alexander the Great, and some of the most precious ancient architecture and remains of the root of our civilisation have been reduced to rubble by the American and British barbarians.

Barbarians with the technology to come up with drones, but bereft of the morality which would make them turn from their methods in disgust.

Britain will be America's servant for as long as America has nuclear weapons on our soil, in places we are not allowed to go.

I welcome the light shed on this by the Zeitgeist films, which I recommend to anyone with a strong stomach and sincere wish to see the pacifist point of view.
Raising general awareness, as you are doing Kathryn, seems to me to be the best way forward - people in general are not stupid, but we are all easily misled at times.
If we can show the propaganda for what it is, then the ability of rational beings to condone the disgusting, cowardly use of drones, will be consigned to the dustbin of history, where it belongs.


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Kerry Burns

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Re: US Drone Strikes
Jun 2, 2012

If you google American world domination prieten47, you will find a wealth of information.
Too many references to list, and each from a different viewpoint.
I'll be interested to hear your findings.


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Kerry Burns

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Re: US Drone Strikes
Jun 3, 2012

I'm afraid my computer skills aren't sufficient to provide a link prieten47, and I'm disappointed that you're unwilling to check things out for yourself.

If that is indeed the way this forum operates then I will try to conform, but in this instance I was not making a charge, to be backed up with facts, as you claim, but repeating something I've become familiar with through many readings in many different places.


Here however, is the tip of the iceberg, information-wise.
Perhaps you will now agree that in saying the plan was openly stated, I was not misleading you.

http://assassinationscience.com/domination.pdf
The Bush Plan for World Domination

Jim Fetzer
The Bush administration has now promulgated its plans for world domination. Under
the title of "The National Security Strategy of the United States" (The New York Times,
20 September 2002), this approach betrays our past heritage as the moral leader of
the civilized world and expends our military power for the purpose of promoting our
own national self-interest, regardless of the consequences for the rest of the world,
in a new form of American imperialism. Its origins are rooted in a study written
and published in September 2000, by the Project for the New American Century,
a neo-conservative think tank, which lays out the case for US world domination.

.................//..................

A word of caution prieten47, my posts often contain references to Matter, Gravity, Time and Space. Since none of these phenomena is understood completely, my posts may be decidedly bereft of "Facts", and therefore unsuitable for you.

I doubt if my poetry would delight you either.


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Kerry Burns

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Re: US Drone Strikes
Jun 4, 2012

Bush and Obama are merely puppets prieten47, the Administration remains on course beneath the surface. This is basic to even the most rudimentary understanding of the situation.

Forgive me if I find your comments rather negative -- if you wish to communicate with me further, you will need a better motive than trying to score cheap points at my expense.


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Farhad

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Re: US Drone Strikes
Jun 4, 2012

A jury in Athens condemned Secretes to death because he believed rulers and politicians were not qualified. Sir Thomas More lost his life for almost the same thing. Practicing the contemporary democracies, who is sure if the most qualifiers become rulers?

About George Bush and 9/11. George Bush was himself a disaster to America and the planet. He was not qualified to handle 9/11. He told the world that you are either with us or against us because his brain could not handle a third element. A third element (at least) could be logic. The worst possible solution was selected. Something that sooner or later will be criticized everywhere including America.
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Farhad

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Re: US Drone Strikes
Jun 4, 2012


prieten47 wrote:


Northman wrote:

The right to kill anyone, anywhere, is now assumed by an administration which has no moral compass -- only the desire, openly stated, to dominate the world.


More baseless claims here. Would you care to provide a quote for that "openly stated" desire to dominate the world, or were you just trying to be poetic?

It has nothing to do with drones, but I saw an interesting statistic today from the United Nations assigning blame for the civilians killed in the crossfire between NATO troops and the Taliban. NATO is responsible for nine percent of the civilians killed, the Taliban is responsible for 79 percent. That statistic alone indicates which side has a better developed moral compass.

When you really think about it, those drones are probably saving lives in Afghanistan.


Taliban were created by western supports.But later stood against Westernization and Americanization. The problem is that West and especially America do not respect the globe but expect to receive global respect.
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Kerry Burns

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Re: US Drone Strikes
Jun 5, 2012

You make a good point concerning respect Farhad, in a broader context I see it as the only basis for successful interaction.
Both in the west's view of the East, and on the interpersonal level, ignorance of the other can lead to difficulties which a basic human respect will always ameliorate.
Valuable stuff - this respect.

I can also see where you are coming from concerning America's old habit, probably learned from us British, of installing puppet leaders like Saddam and giving them weapons to subjugate their own people.
This tactic has ensured hatred of the US from their own back yard, to the far ends of the planet.

Now no longer satisfied with that, and mindful of the bad publicity at home, caused by their own pilot's deaths, they
spend millions on drones.

Last Monday, a drone killed 15 people in a compound in the Pakistani tribal belt, an area that is not at war with the USA.
The target was Abu Yahya al-Libi, though it is not known if he was even there.
Of the fifteen dead, we know little, since little of them remains.

How many women?
How many children?
Can Obama put the pieces back together?
Males of fighting age will, as usual, be described as "Insurgents."
It looks so much better on the page.

The sound of these drones is an ever-present terror in some parts of the world, another reminder of the power of the world's biggest bully.

Those who do not comprehend the sacred nature of life, will never understand those who do.

And in closing their eyes to inhumanity, their own humanity is diminished.
That makes it easier to defend the killing of innocent women and children.


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Farhad

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Re: US Drone Strikes
Jun 5, 2012

Dear prieten47,
I am not sure who you point at by mentioning "you guys". This is supposed to be a free discussion to find facts without taking it personal and without ignoring respects of discussers.

Yes, Taliban were trained and apparently still are trained in Pakistan. There are many religious schools (of all religions) in the planet but Taliban (probably the most hard liners who are said to be away from pure Islamic principles by most Islamic sectors) were supported by the West and Saudi Arabian nationals.

It is OK if you or anyone else support the Western policies but let us criticize what went on in the past few years which hopefully lead to better understanding of the region for peace and security. After all, your origins are from cultures that introduced tolerance to the modern world.

Personally, I am interested in your profile and recognize you as an intelligent and intellectual who care for peace and welfare of human. We do have differences but that does not mean to be unfriendly towards each other.
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Mohammad Ali

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Re: US Drone Strikes
Jun 5, 2012


prieten47 wrote:



Taliban were created by western supports.But later stood against Westernization and Americanization. The problem is that West and especially America do not respect the globe but expect to receive global respect.

Farhad


What is it with you guys? Do you join TIG just to write whatever clever idea pops into your minds? How about checking what you are going to say against a neutral source like Wikipedia?

If you had, you would see the Taliban had its origins in the Pakistan Madrassah schools. The West supported the Madrassahs???? Give us a break. Check your facts before you say something, puleez!



The US funded the Taliban in Afghanistan during the USSR invasion. The Al-Qaeda, and the Pakistani Taliban i.e The Tehrik-e-Taliban are merely offshoots of that mother agency. Their training and equipment they received are still with them. Nations like Pakistan are the ones who have to face the burden of this scourge. And you talk about the countries of the world as if the US is the only nation which is being affected by the Taliban, despite being half-way across the world.
Let me make this abundantly clear prieten47. Every single party in pakistan, hates the living daylights out of the taliban. We've been waging war against them, we brutally ostracize extremists, and there is not a single faction in pakistan that wants the extremists to come to power.
You really need to see the world from the eyes of other nations.

This post was edited on: 2012-06-07 at 04:17 AM by: Anu maheshwari (Moderator)


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Farhad

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Re: US Drone Strikes
Jun 6, 2012


prieten47 wrote:

Let's recap some of the gems we have heard here:

1) Kerry Burns refers to "an administration which has no moral compass -- only the desire, openly stated, to dominate the world."

When asked to quote where this administration "openly stated" it wanted to dominate the world, we got a quote from some critic accusing the Bush administration of seeking world domination.

2) Then we have Farhad telling us the "Taliban were created by western supports." A brief look at Wikipedia under Taliban tells us this isn't so.

3) And finally we get Mohammad Ali's wonderful contribution, "Wow. You're really stupid aren't you? Okay kiddo."

Mohammad (or as he likes to be called, The Scourge From Hell) chooses not to answer my question to him in a previous post in this thread about why Pakistan threw Dr. Shakil Afridi in jail for 33 years for treason. I guess he has no answer. Rather than punish those who aided and abetted Osama's stay in Pakistan, Pakistan has chosen to throw a doctor in jail for 33 years because he showed the world where Osama was hiding. I guess Pakistan hates the Taliban, but still loves Osama????


When I write about Taliban, I mean the Taliban that is;
1- Equipped with arms
2- Has (had) banking accounts overseas
3- Had supports of the West and especially America in conflicts with Soviet Union and later used as a partisan force towards other nations in the region. And as claimed, it may have participated in 9/11.

And certainly I do not mean the ordinary kids in a religious school. I hope this explanation is enough.

Further, I would like to mention that such discussions are not carried out to find winners or losers but are meant to find possible solutions to improve peace and security. So please stop condemnation.
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Kerry Burns

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Re: US Drone Strikes
Jun 6, 2012

I find I'm in agreement with you again Farhad, and I think Joubert said it best -"The purpose of debate is not victory, but progress."

When we attempt to preserve our opinions in the face of contrary evidence, we have to sweep all other opinions off the table before laying down our own.

I'm not familiar with Wikipedia, but my son, who is at university, tells me that like the curate's egg, it is good in parts. He is not allowed to use its content for serious research.

Mohammad, thank you for confirming some of my thoughts from your position near the centre of this conflict.
I think Sindh must be a few hundred miles south of the Tribal Region, so hopefully your area is not directly affected by drones?

I'd be very interested to hear how it feels to be subjected to these acts of aggression by a foreign power. What are people saying on the streets?
My main source of information on a daily basis, is the BBC, which I find to be biased in favour of war, and unreliable.


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Mohammad Ali

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Re: US Drone Strikes
Jun 7, 2012


prieten47 wrote:

Let's recap some of the gems we have heard here:

1) Kerry Burns refers to "an administration which has no moral compass -- only the desire, openly stated, to dominate the world."

When asked to quote where this administration "openly stated" it wanted to dominate the world, we got a quote from some critic accusing the Bush administration of seeking world domination.

2) Then we have Farhad telling us the "Taliban were created by western supports." A brief look at Wikipedia under Taliban tells us this isn't so.

3) And finally we get Mohammad Ali's wonderful contribution, "Wow. You're really stupid aren't you? Okay kiddo."

Mohammad (or as he likes to be called, The Scourge From Hell) chooses not to answer my question to him in a previous post in this thread about why Pakistan threw Dr. Shakil Afridi in jail for 33 years for treason. I guess he has no answer. Rather than punish those who aided and abetted Osama's stay in Pakistan, Pakistan has chosen to throw a doctor in jail for 33 years because he showed the world where Osama was hiding. I guess Pakistan hates the Taliban, but still loves Osama????


Actually, I just didn't see your question about Dr Afridi. I repeat: You are blissfully unaware.
Dr Afridi helped worked hand-in-hand with the CIA, with the Pakistani government being kept completely in the dark. Now you tell me, Pakistan's government finds a man with his hands deep in the Al-Qaeda, as well as having ties with an Islamist warlord. What did you expect the governments response would be :
"Oh god, this guy is so obviously a terrorist, but you never know, he might just be working undercover for the CIA, in a covert operation that is not only a violation of Pakistan's rights, but also very sloppily and ambiguously organized"
Seriously kid, learn some empathy.


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