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alberto
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China and WSIS
November 20, 2003 - 04:57 AM
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After WSIS Prepcom 3A it seems as if the position of human rights within the official documents has become very weak and all references to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights have been dropped. All this because of a position headed by China.
Some thoughts:
If "membership" at the UN is based on the Charter of the United Nations that as a juridically binding annex includes the "Universal Declaration of Human Rights" hasn't the time come to call countries upon major responsibility (not funding unless rights are respected is good step forward), or "exclude" countries from a process (or at least from the security council I'd add....) because they don't respect the parameters of membership (Before I get hundreds of emails: It's not about a law or a principle which is another issue), in this case it's about "parameters of membership" .
Try going naked to the most exclusive golf club in the world, they won't let you in. China's position on human rights is extremely "naked" and clear.
At Cancun China was one of the greatest protestors against agricultural regulations and the rules around international trade, protectionism etc... Well if the Chinese government wants world trade policy to change (which I think it should change) well they need to be open to enhancing rights as they are both discussions based on a moral justice.
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Laurent Straskraba
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criticism and cultural issues
November 20, 2003 - 05:48 AM
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i think this is a very important issue.
i fully understand and i share your disappointance about how hr issues are being handled by some chinese representatives. it´s always been hard to talk about human rights with their delegations.
but: they way to common ground will be barricaded if we start to use offensive speech against them. this means to lose face in chinese culture, and so it is a no-no. i think it might help if we go for some advice from a chinese fellow to tackle with the situation.
btw: even to me the "naked" man is somewhat insulting.
diplomatically,
laurent
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Huss
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I agree, but...
November 20, 2003 - 07:13 AM
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I think getting into the most exclusive gulf club in the world would be very difficult regardless of whether you are naked or not!
But on a more serious note, I think the bigger question is whether we would want China to acknowedge a charter which it clearly has not (and does not) adhere to anyway? I think we all know that many countries adopt a double standard of accepting and adopting the charter without even observing it. At least China practices what it preaches! It's not my intent to defend or condone the despicable violations of human rights in China, but rather to place the question in a wider context.
It's the age-old question hovering like a storm above international law: what good are such references when they are only accepted on paper and not adhered to in practice?
To the Chinese government we can point and say that they do not observe, much less believe in, international law. But what about others?
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Laurent Straskraba
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i agree with huss
November 21, 2003 - 07:35 AM
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china is an example that we know about. but what about the others? to me it seems that human rights (or any other international law) violations take place wherever "those in power" do not punish them or even undertake them themselves. sometimes they do it even in the name of glorified human rights in the need to "enforce" them - not willing to see that this means to abuse them. guess, who i´m talking about ... iraq?
to me, the universal declaration on human rights is indeed an important orientation for all mankind
well, but before we come to this general discussion we might think about ways to convince people why to join on our side.
i´d be very happy to hear about this from one of our chinese members who can explain the way of GETTING TO YES! along chinese traditions.
i mentioned "getting to yes!" since there is a very recommendable book by harvard prof. fisher et al. about this issue.
the 4 "golden" rules as described there are:
1) separate the people from the problem;
2) focus on interests rather than positions;
3) generate a variety of options before settling on an agreement;
4) insist that the agreement be based on objective criteria.
hope to hear more opinions about this ...
peace,
laurent
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Laurent Straskraba
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document about human rights and cultural diversity
November 21, 2003 - 07:43 AM
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i would also like to share this document with you since i think it is vital to this discussion:
http://www.un.org/rights/dpi1627e.htm
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Luke Cholerton-Bozier
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Re: China and WSIS
November 21, 2003 - 09:05 AM
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I totally agree with Laurent.
There are countries in this world that much more blatanty in-your-face infringe on human rights; using Laurent's characterization 'sometimes they do it even in the name of glorified human rights in the need to "enforce" them - not willing to see that this means to abuse them'.
Are they genuinely choosing the lesser of the two evils or is this a pure example of power in the wrong hands?
International politics is a game with high stakes. The Charter of the United Nations is a game-piece for the big players to use to beat down the smaller ones.
On a positive note, the Chinese community has contributed to the Information Society and is continuing to adopt an Open Source approach to improving the state of ICT in China.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: China and WSIS
November 21, 2003 - 12:24 PM
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This all comes down to money - right now their loose human rights standards gives them an advantage over the rest of the world in terms of cheap labor. As they struggle to create a powerhouse economy they will be very reticent to give up that edge.
All our manufacturing jobs in the USA are going to places like china precisely because the standards are so low that the labor is so cheap.
I think more than this being a UN problem it is a matter for the US and other first world economies standing up to China and renegotiating trade agreements - forcing them to either raise their standards or pay high tarrifs for good entering our countries. Money talks - BS walks - The UN has very little leverage over China.
What is more China is holding down the value of their currency to give them another labor advantage.
While I agree with the concept of free trade I think Lassie-fair (misspelled) free trade will doom first world countries - there has to be basic conditions that level the playing feild - like adherence to human rights.
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Hussein Macarambon
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Re: China and WSIS
November 22, 2003 - 03:33 AM
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interesting topic. id like to play the devil's advocate for a while but i totally support the UN Declaration of Human Rights.
Women's Rights: Ive interviewed many Muslim women and they dont seem to regard their inferiority to Muslim men as an infringement upon their rights. They base it on the teachings of the Holy Qur'an and it's virtually impossible to argue with the words of God(for them). A lot of them even support polygamy as it has good sides like having subsequent wives as their conversation mates.
Child Labor: Many countries can ill-afford to offer state-funded education for children, which is also the case for their parents when they were younger. So finding a job that pays is hard and the only option for them is to work in sweatshops that are ought to follow an international principle of paying what one deserves, but these kids are still thankful for the minimal compensation they get from these transnational corporations. Why are most of the anti-sweatshop demonstrations coming all the way from the West(ie US NGOs)? DOnt the governments where the real issues happen care just a tiny bit? Maybe it's good for their economies (I dont know the figures). Or maybe they dont really give a damn about this human rights fever that's taking the whole world agog.
Freedom from arbitrary arrest: Not much to say. Ask Uncle Sam.
Right to Nutritious Food(Diet): People die in huge numbers everyday(can you forgive me if I dont know the exact number? Im pretty sure it's sizeable though) from hunger but we cant really find this problem in our daily headlines.
Does this not struck you as a graver problem than say the human rights violations in China or elsewhere? If I were to choose between death and demeaning hardwork, Id probably (yup!dunno yet. maybe it's painless death. who knows?) pick the latter.
We cant solve all the human rights problems in the world altogether at once. We only have to undertake each one so as not to confuse what Universal Human Rights really are.
In my opinion, it is a lot more important that we think of ways to have these people break away from poverty that smothers their very existence. Then when theyve advanced to a certain speed that puts them on the road where everybody's up and running, that's the time that we check and balance the differences in our customs, beliefs, traditions and what not.
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Hussein Macarambon
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Re: China and WSIS
November 22, 2003 - 03:45 AM
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I forgot one important right: the right to education. Im sharing with you this letter that I received from a friend's friend.
Dear colleagues,
The Right to Education Project is undertaking a research activity into
the
implementation of human rights education (HRE), in primary and
secondary
formal education, to explore the impact of increasing global attention
on
the promotion of human rights in and through education. The research is
being conducted in cooperation with the International Bureau of
Education
- UNESCO.
Educational material that labels itself as HRE, or which purports to
teach
human rights principles, must be able to withstand assessment from a
human
rights perspective. Based on this premise, we are interested in
learning
of any independent evaluations of formal educational subjects or
materials, meant to teach human rights principles, whether designated
as
HRE or under another banner, whether as part of an HRE subject-specific
course or integrated otherwise into the curriculum. We would be
delighted
to hear about existing or ongoing evaluations at the regional,
sub-regional, national or local levels.
Thank you for your assistance.
Best regards,
Beth Asher
Beth Asher
Consultant for the Right to Education Project
International Bureau of Education - UNESCO
c.p. 199, Genève 20, CH-1211 Switzerland
tel: +41 22 917 7854
fax: +41 22 917 7801
info: www.right-to-education.org
www.ibe.unesco.org
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Laurent Straskraba
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human rights education in austria
November 22, 2003 - 05:16 AM
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hussein, for your request i´d recommend the following websites - some are in german only but i think that´s understandable for a swiss:
http://www.humanrights.at/
http://www.aspr.ac.at/
http://www.etc-graz.at/
http://www.ihf-hr.org/
http://www.baobab.at/ (here i was working as a secretary last year  )
http://www.dadalos.org/
http://www.sbg.ac.at/oim/
http://www.univie.ac.at/bim/eng/
http://www.iz.or.at/humanrights/
yes, i do support human rights - and global understanding
peace,
laurent
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Laurent Straskraba
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good to hear ...
November 22, 2003 - 07:46 AM
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there are people around who really think deeper about a situation than just judging quickly in a one-dimensional western-style (it´s all about ... one thing??)
so i´m with hussein (whossane) that if we are REALLY interested in convincing people about human rights we firstly have to UNDERSTAND them. we need to learn WHY they do have objections against human rights as we see it.
to come back to this thread´s core topic, china´s lack of support on human rights at WSIS: i guess, it´s about the freedom of expression and to have access to or share information that could change one´s opinion, being in contrast to the official "mainstream".
Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says:
"Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers."
to my knowledge, chinese culture is based on the values of confucius (kung-fu-tzu), taoism, laoism, and daoism. most important to objections to article 19 seem to be that chinese cultural patterns prefer tradition to change. therefore access to new ideas, new ways to think and/or live, too much of critisism, and pressure to change seems to be reflected as a threat to chinese sovereignty. and as far as i understand, a "good" chinese has to "integrate" into the system without causing trouble, this is what i was told by my asian friends here in austria. and i have experienced that this seems to be a rather wide-spread principle among chinese families, at least at those i had the opportunity to talk to.
well but i´d like to hear from our chinese fellows whether they can agree with these views. i don´t want to put on them my western-influenced ideas without having heard their opinion.
i´m here to learn.
cheers,
laurent
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: China and WSIS
November 22, 2003 - 08:59 AM
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I'm going to have to disagree with Laurent - while the Chinese obviously have a very traditional culture -none of those philosophies you mentioned in any way favor human rights abuses. Also Taoism and Confucism are at odds.
The Chinese might have problems with the influx of new ideas and lack free expression - perhapes this is a contributing factor - but is an effect rather than a root cause. When children are working 12 hours a day in factories there is obviously a moral delimma that doesn't require 'new ideas' to recognise.
You don't think that these human rights abuses closely mirror those that the western world participated in during its economic development. China is going through an industrial period - this lack of morals and concern for workers (who are not unionized) is driven by economics in a developing country.
It is not mere chance that those countries with the poorest economies also have the loosest human rights standards. They need jobs, they need money.
Western companies are profiting off this divide in workers standards and they must be held responsible by western governments - also the western governments need to recognise that they are losing literally millions of jobs, and they need to stand up to contries like China and demand they raise their standards. Right now Western nations are esentially exporting their economy.
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Laurent Straskraba
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@luke
November 23, 2003 - 05:50 AM
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there is no disagreement with this: "I'm going to have to disagree with Laurent - while the Chinese obviously have a very traditional culture -none of those philosophies you mentioned in any way favor human rights abuses. Also Taoism and Confucism are at odds." - and it also depends what exactly human right you are talking about. i was regarding to article 19 ...
and sure luke, having money is the solution to everything. *gg* ... you might be in good line with the mafia then - yes, if $$ is the solution to everything, we don´t have to deal with anything else *lol*
cheers,
laurent
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Raymond M. Kristiansen
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Re: China and WSIS
November 23, 2003 - 10:48 AM
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Very interesting discussion, and a lot of good points have come across.
Firstly I agree with Hossane; we need to have a higher understanding of different culture's perspective on human rights. However, in the case of China, cultural relativism is not really an excuse (as I guess we all agree upon) for the sometimes hugely unfair conditions which are the standard in some cases.
The Chinese economy, as I see it, has several characteristics of a gold rush. Maximise short-term profits and get that economy boosting! And they are doing very good at it. The Chinese economy is one of the fastest growing in the world, and yesterday I read on WSJ.com that US toolmaker jobs is also in significent numbers going to China because.
I think the real problem here is a focus on economic free-running and political suppression of the people. The treatment of the Falun Gong movement in China is well known. Several web sites are blocked in China (including bbc.co.uk? I am not sure) And human rights seems indeed to be a non-issue. However, there are several human rights groups active in China, and I think we got to listen more to what they have to say.
On this http://iso.hrichina.org/iso/article.adp?article_id=66&category_id=27 homepage you can read the story of Fu Shenqi, who has fought for Chinese mainland worker's rights for decades. Here is a couple of Q&A quotes:
"Wang Yu: You were formerly a worker. I'd like to ask you to discuss the current situation of workers on the mainland.
Fu: From the point of view of human rights, Chinese workers never enjoyed the most basic civil rights. Freedom of assembly and association, the rights to demonstrate and strike - all are forbidden. All unions are officially controlled. If workers wish to organize their own unions or associations, or call a strike, and so on, these can all be labeled hostile actions and thus banned and suppressed. The phrase "the workers are the masters" is nothing but empty words.
When reforms began in 1979, the workers' position was weakened. Workers in the state enterprises faced a crisis - being laid off. Once laid off, a worker lost all social benefits; this meant that their survival itself was threatened. Even today there is still no system in China to defend the rights of workers who have lost their jobs. Previously, workers' basic subsistence was guaranteed under the system known colloquially as the "iron rice-bowl." Thus, in comparison with the past, the civil and political rights of workers have made no progress, and their social standing has slipped considerably.
Wang: Has the situation of workers in individual businesses or private enterprises shown any improvement by comparison?
Fu: It's just my personal opinion, but Shanghai workers in the joint-venture, foreign-invested and private enterprises can say their lives are quite good. However, in remote regions, in private industries or state industries which pass for private ones, the situation of workers is very poor. Salaries are kept to the bare minimum, and there are no social benefits; provisions for safety in the work environment are very bad, in fact, scarcely exist. There are frequent accidents and injuries, and the situation of miners is the worst of all. "
I also think that there is a huge difference in the situation for workers in say the coastal area and those working in more remote areas of China. Of course, millions of Chinese workers has experienced a radical increase in income, and their lives are a lot easier now than before. But a large amount of Chinese have seen their situation going increasingly worse, and in the competition for even lower costs associated with the production of say tools for shops like Wal-Mart means that the wages are being squeezed to a minimum. The unemployment rate in rural China is also a point to consider.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: China and WSIS
November 23, 2003 - 11:29 AM
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I'm sorry Laurent - I forgot that economics never influence politics - what was I thinking?
I guess when I anylize things like poor working conditions and child labor I shouldn't consider economics to be at the root.
Your right, its a cultural thing - Confucious told them to exploit cheap labor - jeez.
Money has alot to do with a countries policies - wake up.
China is not the only country with human rights abuses - and all these other countries don't have the same cultural background as the Chinese - yet despite different cultural backgrounds they have the same human rights problems - WHAT DO ALL THESE COUNTRIES HAVE IN COMMON? A STRUGGLING ECONOMY.
Please name a first world economy that has a poor human rights record existing in the world today.
If you can think of a better way to leverage the policies of the Chinese govenrment - besides economics - please tell me what that might be.
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