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Crystal_Abongta
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HIV and Morals
November 18, 2003 - 12:09 PM
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IWell just some time ago, a friend told me he sees a threatening link between HIV and morals and that HIV/AIDS seems to thrive where there are failing or falling moral standards. I seem to agree some how with his assertions based on a number of considerations.
Prostitution/pornography is one of the trademarks of failing morals be it for what ever reasons and where prostitution flourishes, the HIV has more hostages to claim.
Looking back into the history of the HIV, we find that at one time the HIV was rampant amongst the gay communities in the western world. Well I honestly consider as well as many other upright people homosexuality to be a critical stage of failing morals. It’s a life style, yes I agree and be it genetic or not does not cancel the fact that homosexuality is something out of the normal and thus, not in compliance with uprightness or sound moral rectitude.
Rape and other forms of sexual abuses leaves the victim with a higher degree of getting infected and thus where these crimes thrive, there are greater possibilities of more people (the victims) getting infected. Rape and other forms of sexual abuse are all building blocks of immorality as you would agree.
The question comes then; do we agree with my friend that failing or falling moral standards constitute part of the catalyst for HIV propagation? If so, what can be done at the level of education and prevention?
Thanks for your insights into this.
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Terri Willard
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Re: HIV and Morals
November 18, 2003 - 06:29 AM
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In the last two weeks, you've tackled the micro- and macro- level approaches to understanding social phenomenon.
Macro - Disease/crime/etc is a result of broader social forces. Macro-level phenomenon and policies create difficult situations for individuals which constrain the options available to them. They do not have the knowledge or the material resources to make choices other than those which they do. In the example of HIV, these are the kinds of issues which arise in the discussion you started on poverty and HIV (http://turbo.takingitglobal.org/discuss/showthread.php?threadid=4159)
Micro - Disease/crime/etc is the result/consequence of individual choices. No matter what situation an individual is in, s/he always has a choice of how to deal with that situation. In the example of HIV, this framework leads to questions of morality and HIV.
I would suggest that the reality of the situation is usually somewhere in between the two perspectives. Poverty constrains choices - constrains freedom to control one's own life. But, yes, every individual is capable of and responsible for choices regarding their own conduct within those constraints. But, to make a moral choice, a) a choice has to exist; and b) you have to know that you are making a choice.
To tackle HIV effectively will require tackling poverty (e.g. increasing education and livelihood options which are conducive to healthy relationships and non-durg abuse), improving the status of women (e.g. raising their economic opportunities, self esteem, and ability to tell guys to get lost), and massive educational campaigns aimed at young men (e.g. reducing the "cool" factor of having sex with many women, reducing tendencies to view women as primarily sexual objects, reducing risky behaviour re: drug needle sharing).
There are some really good resources emerging on a gendered perspective to HIV/AIDS that moves beyond the micro-macro dichotomy. Check out Geeta Rao Gupta's speech from Durban at http://www.icrw.org/docs/DurbanSpeech.pdf She suggests that at the end of the day, HIV/AIDS will not be halted until we address the serious power imbalances between men and women that are leading to increased HIV vulnerabilities for both men and women.
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Terri Willard
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Re: HIV and Morals
November 18, 2003 - 06:40 AM
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Originally posted by Abongta
Looking back into the history of the HIV, we find that at one time the HIV was rampant amongst the gay communities in the western world. Well I honestly consider as well as many other upright people homosexuality to be a critical stage of failing morals. It’s a life style, yes I agree and be it genetic or not does not cancel the fact that homosexuality is something out of the normal and thus, not in compliance with uprightness or sound moral rectitude.
To maintain continuity of discussion, I would suggest that anyone who wishes to address questions regarding morality and homosexuality do so in the other thread established specifically on that topic (http://www.takingitglobal.org/discuss/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3820).
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: HIV and Morals
November 18, 2003 - 06:46 AM
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"homosexuality is something out of the normal and thus, not in compliance with uprightness or sound moral rectitude." - Abognta
Einstein was abnormal, Micheal Jordan was abnormal - by definition they were far above the norm, Jesus was abnormal - here was a man who rebelled against all the social norms of his day. None of these people were normal - Leonardo Di Vinci was completely eccentric, as was Issac Newton, as was Charlie Chaplin.
Why does conforming to normality = morality? To my mind it is better to be different - how else can one be exceptional? Conformity is such a low goal.
By your logic Abognta Africa is the most evil place on earth - it has the highest HIV rate.
Can it really be said that Africa is more immoral than America or Europe?
I perfer not to Judge other people so harshly - but rather try to understand them. Africa has the highest HIV rate because of a lack of sexual education and the availability of contraceptives.
What the Catholic Church is doing there is nothing short of repulsive spreading mistruths about the nature of contraceptives and discouraging their use - that leads to the spread of sexual disease.
The most immoral person in the world - if he constantly uses a condom - will not get HIV. Meanwhile a medical aid worker who helps a carrier and comes in contact with tainted blood - will contract the virus.
The world is not as simple as you would like it to be.
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Terri Willard
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Re: HIV and Morals
November 30, 2003 - 07:07 AM
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Abongta, I am so deeply troubled by so many points in your post that I hardly know where to begin.... I tried just going out for a nice walk in the park and forgetting about it, but it didn't work.
1) The allegation that HIV/AIDS was introduced to Africa through vaccines that were purposefully contaminated with a lethal virus by the US government and/or pharamceutical industry - OK... I did some searching on the Web. And, much to my surprise, yes some scientists have linked the spread of HIV in Africa to polio vaccinations in the 1950s (see http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/dissent/documents/AIDS/). HOWEVER, there is no evidence that this was done on purpose.
2) Social and immoral influence of the west on the African population - Your arguments are actually more geo-political than social/cultural. Collusion and corruption in businesses and governments operating in Africa has been brutal. No doubt about it. But, that's not due to the social influence of the West. That's due to economic and political motivations and shifting balances of power over a century. And, I would argue, that over the course of that time, there have been more than a few people in Africa willing to prey about their fellow Africans in pursuit of profit. Greed is a universal thing, much thought I wish I could say otherwise. And, I'm a big fan of social movements which seek to constrain it.
3) Empowerment of women - It's not the women's pain and energy which is required to prevent themselves from infection... it's a sense of self-worth and the economic and political power to know that they can say no to a man who wants to have sex with them. Most women I know don't want to catch a terminal sexually transmitted disease which could kill them and their future children. However, women have sex with men for MANY reasons besides love, including as a way of gaining access to resources which can provide economic and social security - whether through marriage or more temporary liaisons. Secondly, at what point do men need to take responsibility for HIV/AIDS prevention??!!??? Why is it always the woman's "pain and effort"? As an HIV/AIDS educator yourself, I find it surprising that you come up with these sorts of statements....
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Crystal_Abongta
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Re: HIV and Morals
November 30, 2003 - 11:03 AM
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Originally posted by luke
[B...The most immoral person in the world - if he constantly uses a condom - will not get HIV.[/B]
Well Luke, I honestly don’t agree with you, the10% failure ratio of condoms remains no matter how consistent you use them. Studies have proven that people using condoms consistently end up infected it’s just a probability. I don’t want to get into the whole history of condoms now and their failure rate may be in another discussion. I would expect that you sound more lucid and fact-based in your reaction rather than creating the impression you don’t even really know the realities of Africa. Nobody denies the fact that Africa is not suffering the pangs of the HIV, its true that it has the highest percentage but I would just remind you that HIV is already on the rampage in Asia and is devastating India already.
Have you asked yourself why Africa has the highest rate of the HIV? Have you for one second imagined why the western world had to ship in the HIV into Africa? At the very beginning, the US was the most hit nation on earth but it took less than half a decade to get Africa become the most affected continent on earth. This actually takes us back to falling morals and professional ethics. Don’t ask me for the documented prove of this; well let me already tell you to use your head, and fifth sense to get that. The western world in the campaign against Polio, Small Pox and sundry had these vaccines contaminated with the HIV and that’s how they had all the time to ship this virus into all the nicks and crevices of the African Continent unnoticed. What was their mission, to check the exponential growth of the African population to make sure Africa does not take over the command batten in some time to come?
That is not even the basis of my cry; I am really concerned about the social and immoral influence of the west on the African population. Pornography has been imported; child trafficking, the remnants of the slave trade keeps on most of the time for pornographic reasons. The massive production of arms in the west has forced them to create all the artificial conflicts in Africa so they would have a ready market for their products. We all know at the bottom-line that in during these various war fares, the innocent and powerless children and women suffer the most. Besides the displacement of people during such wars, there is massive rape, and other forms of sexual abuses.
All of these calamities resulting from a massive moral breakdown are just what is fanning the HIV into the wild. If we consider poverty, it is some how liked to the wars, the most poverty stricken countries on earth are those either in war or coming out of war and these are the countries suffering the real pangs of the HIV.
The cultural aspect counts to an extend, I know there is still the practices of genital mutilation, early marriages and crude methods of abortions in some communities again abortions have their genealogy from the west. D&E for example was not known in Africa until it was imported. And you would bear with me that Dilation and Evacuation is a crud and inhuman method of abortion though modern instruments are used. I don’t even want to talk of D&C, Saline Injection etc.
Talking about gender and creating a gender balance as a premise to solving the problems of HIV, I don’t really agree with you. Including gender approaching in fighting HIV is acceptable and should be encouraged but not as the basis or a condition to solving the problem. By nature and biologically proven, women are more susceptible to an infection with HIV for every sexual intercourse than men, there is nothing you can do about that, no amount of emancipation or getting the women’s voice at the decision making table would modify the percentage of women infected every year by the HIV if they don’t take the pain and needed energy to prevent themselves from infections. Mother to Child transmission is not due to gender imbalance and so on. All the same I am in no way suggesting that women’s voice should not be taken into account, I am rather saying it’s not a prelude to fighting the HIV.
I think so far, so good and I am waiting on your reactions.
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Crystal_Abongta
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Hmmm let me say...
December 1, 2003 - 06:22 AM
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Originally posted by taikod
1) The allegation that HIV/AIDS was introduced to Africa through vaccines that were purposefully contaminated with a lethal virus by the US government and/or pharamceutical industry ...
Hey! A few corrections, I intentionally did not mention any names or those responsible for polluting Africa with the HIV did I? So I don’t see how/were these specifications are coming from. If you read back into my posting, I talked of the western world
Originally posted by taikod
HOWEVER, there is no evidence that this was done on purpose.- Taikod
You don't expect them to take the podium to tell you it was for a purpose, only a whole hearted fool would do that. We know for what reason. May be you would like to know that there was a certain European parliament that held some two years ago, (sorry I don't have the refrence now but I would look for the documentary and URL to give you)During this parliament, it was said that to check the population explosion in Africa, they needed to increase the death rate in Africa ... We don’t know how this was going to be done, may be through the injection of the HIV in to vaccines etc.
May I already bring it to your know that some vaccines destined for young women were rejected here in my country by some institutions. The vaccine was said to initiate sterility in these young women and some even say that some of the vaccines were contaminated with the virus. Needless to talk of the blood bath that fell on those who objected to this It is not a joke when I said what I said
Originally posted by taikod
3) Empowerment of women ... Why is it always the woman's "pain and effort"? As an HIV/AIDS educator yourself, I find it surprising that you come up with these sorts of statements. - Taikod
Actually there are some of the areas where and HIV/AIDS educator should stand on the fence, I mediate and don’t take sides when it comes to gender and HIV. After reading the document you refer to in the URL, I agree with the arguments, my trouble is in considering Gender balance as the only condition on which the eradication of HIV is based. For example it’s not due to a gender imbalance that young women are pushed into prostitution. There are many important factors for the propagation of the HIV other than Gender.
I repeat again that including a gender perspective in project planning for the eradication of the HIV is necessary and welcome but insisting that until such a balance is achieved, the fight against HIV would be a failure is not true. HIV is a multisectorial problem.
Well with the advent of gender equality, I have the impression that we are beginning to deviate from the norm. Power is an important gender factor worth considering but the question comes how does the inequitable distribution of power affect the active involvement of women in preventing themselves?
Besides being an HIV/AIDS educator, I am a counselor. I have met women who for example don’t like the condom let alone the female condom these women have come to me to seek ways of convincing their husbands from using condoms and what is their rationale that using the condom makes them look like prostitutes. Well they think only prostitutes should use condoms but they fail to see the possibility of their husbands visiting other women. I have talked to prostitutes who think that the condom delays ejaculation and prevents them from meeting many more men a day to make a good income what do you say about that?
Women are turning themselves into sex objects, look at the way they yield to nudity in public adverts just for money. What of those who expose their contours in the name of fashion just to entice men where actually is the imbalance of power coming in here? It’s actually a 50-50 equation. Women are actually part of their own problem and they are catalyzing this power imbalance that exists.
I think women need to reexamined their needs vise-a-vise HIV/AIDS and adopt plausible communications strategies to negotiable safe sex practices with men. They need tremendous efforts to bring to equilibrium the discriminatory image that have been painted on them since time immemorial. From the Genesis to Revelations in the Bible, in all the cultures, the English language etc had painted a wrong image of the woman. They need then to trace these roots and repaint themselves on the new slate.
Gracias
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: HIV and Morals
December 2, 2003 - 03:50 AM
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I couldn't click through to the study you suggested - frankly most of what you have written doesn't make much sense to me but in the end it seems the numberyou came up with is 85% - still don't know how you reached this number.
In the meantime I'll toss another study your way -
http://www.aids.wustl.edu/aids/condoms.html
Condoms block even the smallest viral particles at a rate of about 98-99%
The real question is if it breaks, is used properly and consistantly, and is free of tears.
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Terri Willard
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Suspending judgment
December 2, 2003 - 04:14 AM
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Originally posted by luke
Paradoxically you blame much on the west but say that immorality is the source of HIV - as though people deserve what they get.
I think one of the things that makes me most queasy about linking HIV and morality is that it stigmatizes HIV positive individuals as immoral - which creates a social atmosphere within which it is extremely hard to do effective HIV treatment or education. If HIV and morality are linked in public (and private) discourse, people become afraid to get HIV testing done or to acknowledge their HIV status out of fear of public judgment and condemnation of their "immorality."
It's a disease. It spreads. We need to deal with it in a morally neutral fashion like any other disease. Think about it like the flu. No one ever condemns people for having the flu. Which means that people are far more likely to go to the doctor for a diagnosis and treatment, as well as to tell their friends and family that they have the flu. And they are willing to get a flu vaccination if they think they might be at risk.
We need to get to a point where people have the same attitude about HIV - WITHOUT all of the moral baggage. Otherwise massive numbers of people will continue to die.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: HIV and Morals
December 2, 2003 - 06:15 AM
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Abognta - Condoms are much more than 90% effective try closer to 99%.
For a bit of evidence check out http://www.avert.org/condoms.htm
A study of 123 couples who consistantly used condoms were all clean - of a comperable group who were inconsistant 12 transmitted disease.
I don't think any method is fool proof but the 90% number is wholey innaccurate - failure rate is more on the order of 1 in 100 not 1 in 10.
obviously this is a subject you have thought about - but be wary of finding scape goats - Africas problems are not all the result of western influence - take responsibility for yourselves.
Paradoxically you blame much on the west but say that immorality is the source of HIV - as though people deserve what they get.
Really sexual education is more important than judgement and condemnation of people who have sex - it is an entirely natural instinct that people act on.
Anyway those were some pretty serious charges you just leveled at - I'm not exactly sure who - about the West infecting Africa - so you are going to have to be more specific or I can't give them any creedence.
From my research it looks like HIV probably started in Northern Europe rather than the US. Almost everyone agrees that is began as an animal disease - either Sheep or Monkeys - it bears close relationship to SIV (Simian Immunodeficiency virus).
But really no one seems to have a conclusive answer about where or how it started.
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gold
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The issue of HIV/AIDS
December 2, 2003 - 07:15 AM
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The issue of HIV/AIDS cannot be over emphasised.People should know that it is one of the cases of pandemic infections which has gone round all corners of the world and being a disease which its cure has not been found,people now look at it as a cause from God.HIV/AIDS is viral infection with a difference.As we know already,It is not always easy to treat a viral infection as they are very resistant as this is appplicable to other ones such as Varicella zooster virus infection.
We still believe that a remedy will come one day.But the best known remedy being faithfullness to one's sexual partner and abstinence since the infection is transmittable through contact of body secretions or blood from an infected person to another predisposes one to all cases of infection.
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Benedikt Nyger
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Re: HIV and Morals
December 2, 2003 - 08:27 AM
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Dear Luke, may I quote from the Workshop Summary Scientific Evidence on Condom Effectiveness for Sexually Transmitted Disease (STD) Prevention by US National Institute of Health.
http://www.niaid.nih.gov/dmid/stds/condomreport.pdf.
Key Research Findings on Effectiveness
HIV infection is the only STD for which formal meta-analyses have been published (28, 166). The most recent analysis by Davis and Weller (28) was evaluated. This analysis, in which only longitudinal or cohort studies were included, used the following criteria to select studies related to condom use and HIV/AIDS prevention:
(1) Sample included serodiscordant, sexually active, heterosexual couples;
(2) HIV status was determined by serology (so that exposure to HIV was known);
(3) Data collection included self report about condom use; and
(4) Study design afforded longitudinal follow-up of HIV uninfected partner.
Studies with insufficient condom use information and/or duplicate or interim reports on the same cohort were excluded. Davis and Weller found twelve studies, which met these criteria (139, 29, 30, 150, 155, 158, 160, 161, 165, 108, 171, 173). The meta-analysis noted the direction of transmission (male-to-female, female-to-male, and unstated) and date of study enrollment. Condom usage was classified into the following three categories: always (100% use), sometimes, and never. Among participants who reported always using condoms, the summary estimate of HIV/AIDS incidence from the twelve studies was 0.9 seroconversion per 100 person years. Among those who reported never using condoms, the summary estimate of HIV/AIDS incidence from the seven studies was 6.7 seroconversions per 100 person years. Overall, Davis and Weller estimated that condoms provided an 85% reduction in HIV/AIDS transmission risk when infection rates were compared in always versus never users.
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I think 85% risk redudction is very low.
Uganda had in the 80s on of the highest HIV rate of the world. (16%) Then the government started the ABC campaign which consists of three approaches which are built up on each other. First you shall try to abstain from sex, if you don't match that you shall try to be faithful to your partner if you don't match that you should use condoms. I think this approach complies with the Human nature which fails and it has the great advantage that it doesn't exclude the religious work. Churches in Uganda are much more active in fighting AIDS than in other countries.
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Benedikt Nyger
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Re: HIV and Morals
December 4, 2003 - 09:21 AM
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Originally posted by luke
I couldn't click through to the study you suggested - frankly most of what you have written doesn't make much sense to me but in the end it seems the numberyou came up with is 85% - still don't know how you reached this number.
In the meantime I'll toss another study your way -
http://www.aids.wustl.edu/aids/condoms.html
Condoms block even the smallest viral particles at a rate of about 98-99%
The real question is if it breaks, is used properly and consistantly, and is free of tears.
Hi Luke,
sorry, there was a dot too much. http://www.niaid.nih.gov/dmid/stds/condomreport.pdf is the right link. There on page 17 is the cited 85% risk reduction. Please note: This paper is a meta analysis of several studies and is very actual (2002). Your link cites two studies but the source is much older (1996/1997) and the data basis is very small (100-200 persons for each study). And even the second study admits a reduction from 12 to 2% which is only a relative reduction of 83,3%. This is a similar number as number from to the nih-paper I linked.
Bye
Benedikt
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Crystal_Abongta
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Suspending judgment
December 4, 2003 - 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by taikod
We need to get to a point where people have the same attitude about HIV - WITHOUT all of the moral baggage. Otherwise massive numbers of people will continue to die.
This time around, I fall in your camp. What makes even more difficult managing HIV/AIDS is the aspect of stigmatization.
Just to add more icing on the cake, often I have the impression that people get the messages the wrong way. We don’t and we should not accuse, blame or stigmatize infected people. Doing that would be killing them prematurely. Infected people need love and care, they need the support to carry on and care givers should be able to provide this care.
On the other hand, taking about social activities and life risky life style that could lead to and infection with HIV is not laying down a foundation for stigmatization (though it might indirectly – mostly to the uninformed)
In HIV/AIDS prevention education, there is what we call behavior change analysis, there involves analyzing the various behavior patterns and life styles that could be risky. Usually at the end of this stage, we do what is called risk and vulnerability mapping. During these two important stages, it’s important to outline all the possible risk factors in the environment under consideration so that people are informed and apt to take informed decisions.
But we should mix up intensions, talking about certain aspects especially linking HIV and morals is in a bit to trace the propagation mechanism of HIV as a result of non respect of simple and ample moral standards. This does not mean that when people do fall pray, we capitalize on blaming and condemning them rather than helping them cope with the disease. Stigmatizing infected persons would be counter productive.
One of my good friends today and who is very instrumental to my programmes is HIV positive, I don’t blame him, I rather help him live on. You might as well want to know that he is an ex-gay.
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Brian Muller
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HIV, Morality, Homosexuality and the rest of the story...
December 22, 2003 - 05:59 AM
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After reading the posts so far on this topic, I have found fallacies and attempts to explain away a pandemic that has its true origins in Africa. Although some empirical research claimed that there may have been contaminated polio immunizations, the real evidence has linked the source of HIV infection from the ingestion of primates who carried a similar virus that was primarily indigenous to only primates(simian HIV-1). The transference and subsequent development of human HIV is still a question that baffles the medical and research communities.
Blaming other nations for a disease is just wrong. Did the "West" introduce dengue, malaria or ebola to Africa to "control the African population"? Did the "West" starve Africa of moisture causing the Ethiopian disaster of the mid-90's? Pointing fingers and making frivolous claims about a disease which had its origins on your continent is not the way to combat this disease.
When HIV was first discovered in the early 80's in the United States, it was called the "gay disease" since the majority of reported cases was in the gay community. I remember this period quite well. Several of my older friends were claimed by this disease. During this time period, the Centers for Disease Control were able to trace the first reported case of human HIV infection to an African female who migrated to the United States. Who she transmitted it to and how it eventually became such a devastating disease in the gay community can only be speculated.
On the subject of declining morality and the incidence of HIV infection : Stating that gay men are morally deficient is like saying that Buddhists are heathens. Who and what determines morality? Religion? Social norms? Our own beliefs or those taught to us by our parents, religious leaders or teachers? As a gay man, I am offended that I should be pointed out as a moral outcast. I believe in God and Jesus as my savior. In July I was ordained as a Minister of God through Universal Life Ministries. I am an upstanding member of my community, providing counseling services for substance abusers and alcoholics. Here in Kansas City, I have been on several fund-raising committees and participated in numerous events that have resulted in over $250,000 in donations to AmFAR (the American Foundation for AIDS Research). Currently I am pursuing my advanced degree in Psychology because I feel that mental health is a very rewarding career. What more can I do to be more morally correct?
I believe that your friend Abongta, who states that he is an "Ex-gay," is incorrect in his claims of being gay to begin with. If he were truly gay to he would have never switched his sexuality so easily as you made it seem. You just can't switch your sexuality like switching a light switch on or off. It just doesn't work that way. If he had experimented with his sexuality with other men, or if he had a bi-sexual encounter, then I could believe this.
As for abstinence over the usage of condoms, well I think the best way to compare those two is by looking at how the American presidency has handled the situation. During the Clinton administration, the usage of condoms was promoted as the most effective way to prevent the spread of HIV. Now, with George W. in office, abstinence is considered to be the best way to prevent more cases of HIV. Since it is in human nature to pro-create, the idea of abstinence is completely ludicrous at best. At least during the Clinton presidency the number of reported HIV infections actually slowed, as opposed to the first three years of the Bush presidency where the number of cases has actually increased expeditiously.
I think the best thing we, as an informed and (hopefully) empowered global community, can do is to pressure our nations to work together and make current treatments available to all, regardless of financial situation or foreign policies. We should be combining our efforts to create a cure not pointing fingers at certain governments or peoples.
Well, I know that others are probably wondering where I came up with the information about the simian HIV being transferred to the human population in West Central Africa. This article published in the New York Times best describes the events surrounding the origins of the epidemic. http://www.natap.org/2001/sep/genesis091101.htm
God Bless those who suffer from this disease, and through our prayers, hopefully He will provide our nations with a cure.
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