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sarah

Joined: Aug 10, 2011
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Country: Israel
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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
Apr 1, 2013


farhadmiriany wrote:

Dear Sarah,
You give yourself a hard time to reply quickly. Why are you in hurry? You and I are not in a fight. We are discussing an issue and at most it will be a debate. If you and I are looking to serve the mankind, we may do our best to find he truth and not try our best to be the winner of discussion. If you agree to discuss it without humiliating the other side, then I will reply to your comments.
Otherwise there will be no use to continue and I announce you as the winner. Does that make you satisfied?

One suggestion: you may click on "quote" and then write your criticism. Doing that your views will be easily understood. Wish you good luck.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------
Farhad



farhad- i in no way intended to insult you or anyone else. i reread my post and saw nothing insulting or humiliating. if you would be more specific id know what not to say next time.
obviously i am not meaning to "win" any "fight", and don't understand how you got to the conclusion that i did. i am merely trying to have a polite debate, if you find my words hurtful please say so.

i happen to see your post right away and had free time, like now. i am in a year of national service and usually have no time to reply so quickly, now is our passover vacation smile

-Sarah.


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Farhad

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
Apr 2, 2013


sarah56 wrote:


farhadmiriany wrote:

Dear Sarah,
You give yourself a hard time to reply quickly. Why are you in hurry? You and I are not in a fight. We are discussing an issue and at most it will be a debate. If you and I are looking to serve the mankind, we may do our best to find he truth and not try our best to be the winner of discussion. If you agree to discuss it without humiliating the other side, then I will reply to your comments.
Otherwise there will be no use to continue and I announce you as the winner. Does that make you satisfied?

One suggestion: you may click on "quote" and then write your criticism. Doing that your views will be easily understood. Wish you good luck.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------
Farhad



farhad- i in no way intended to insult you or anyone else. i reread my post and saw nothing insulting or humiliating. if you would be more specific id know what not to say next time.
obviously i am not meaning to "win" any "fight", and don't understand how you got to the conclusion that i did. i am merely trying to have a polite debate, if you find my words hurtful please say so.

i happen to see your post right away and had free time, like now. i am in a year of national service and usually have no time to reply so quickly, now is our passover vacation *

-Sarah.


You are a quick learner Sarah. Congratulations.

There are many points in your posts that I will discuss with you when you come out of service. Of course if I would be alive on that time.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------
Farhad


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Saladin

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
Apr 10, 2013

since we live in a state where for every 3 people there are 4 opinions, the fact that the author is Israeli says absolutely nothing.

You seem to feel that this is unique for Israel. This sentence applies to everywhere equally.

the more you read different opinions about this conflict you will come to realize that there are many "facts" which hide parts of history, many "facts" that ignore the rest of the facts that don't fit a specific agenda, atc.

What different opinions have you heard? Could you provide specific examples? In my case I read Ilan Pappe, Amira Hass, Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, Naomi Klein, and Robert Fisk. They all pretty much support my argument. I have read also some pro-Israeli authors such as Daniel Pipes and Alan Dershowitz.

I've read a lot about the hagana, have been to museums and places like that, and have heard of no "ethnic cleansing" done by them. i will read that book when i get a chance to, though.

Interestingly, Pappe's entire case is based on direct quotes from the Haganah's own archives. I invite you to read his work and learn about the Haganah from its own records.

what does PBUH stand for?
Peace and Blessings Be Upon Him.

i know what i am discussing since i have read about the subject (many different opinions)- although not the specific book you mentioned,

Any examples?

and more important- have lived here for 19 years, 4 wars and many, many missiles and terrorist attacks. i have seen how time and time again my country would offer ridicules offerings to stop all this violence and work turds peace, and how the Palestinian authority and the Hamas will ignore all this and continue the violence.

I have been living in the region for 27 years, and travelled in countries like Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Tunisia, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Oman and Turkey. I have also been to Palestinian refugee camps in the suburbs of Damascus and Beirut. Does this make either of our arguments more or less correct. The decisive factor lies in the Haganah and the IDF own archives.


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Saladin

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
Apr 10, 2013

i am not talking about self deffence "violence". i am not talking about reacting to terrorism. i am talking about walking into a house and stabbing three children to death, and slashing a baby's throat. i am talking about blowing up a restaurant, and blowing it up again when help comes. i am talking about deliberately shooting to death high school students and blowing up in a club full of teenagers. saying this is a reaction to us "stealing their land" will not be tolerated anywhere else, even if it was true.

I personally dehumanise those committing such cruel sorts of violence. In no way can slaughtering of civilians be justified. However, those who complain from such attacks are assumed to be leaders by example, and are expected to stand on higher moral ground. Unfortunately, this is hardly the case we are dealing with. Noam Chmosky's book "Understanding Power" recounts the notorious interrogation techniques employed by the IDF and the Shin-Bet.It explains the various torturing techniques to which Palestinian inmates are systematically exposed. Other usual Israeli habits include land confiscation, gun-point displacement, destruction of farmland, and home demolition. This is to say the least. Other "individual" examples including Baruch Goldstein's incident in 1996, the notorious "Death to Arabs" slogans occasionally enchanted by Beitar Yerushalayim fans, and occasional torching of mosques in places like Teverya and Nazareth.


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sarah

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
Apr 11, 2013


farhadmiriany wrote:


sarah56 wrote:


farhadmiriany wrote:

Dear Sarah,
You give yourself a hard time to reply quickly. Why are you in hurry? You and I are not in a fight. We are discussing an issue and at most it will be a debate. If you and I are looking to serve the mankind, we may do our best to find he truth and not try our best to be the winner of discussion. If you agree to discuss it without humiliating the other side, then I will reply to your comments.
Otherwise there will be no use to continue and I announce you as the winner. Does that make you satisfied?

One suggestion: you may click on "quote" and then write your criticism. Doing that your views will be easily understood. Wish you good luck.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------
Farhad



farhad- i in no way intended to insult you or anyone else. i reread my post and saw nothing insulting or humiliating. if you would be more specific id know what not to say next time.
obviously i am not meaning to "win" any "fight", and don't understand how you got to the conclusion that i did. i am merely trying to have a polite debate, if you find my words hurtful please say so.

i happen to see your post right away and had free time, like now. i am in a year of national service and usually have no time to reply so quickly, now is our passover vacation *

-Sarah.


You are a quick learner Sarah. Congratulations.

There are many points in your posts that I will discuss with you when you come out of service. Of course if I would be alive on that time.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------
Farhad



I don't really see a reason not to discuss it now, but if you are not intrested in discussing you don't have to.
Of course, God willing you will be alive and wellsmile


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sarah

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
Apr 11, 2013

so you will have to dehumanise a large persentage of the palastinian population, as well as the hamas leadership in gaza (a terrorist orginization which delibratly kills inuccent civilians), which was democraticly chosen by the gazan people. i also do not understand why you will condemn israel so badly and not the palastinian othourity or hamas half as much, since you surely don't believe that delibratly stabbing children in the heart is equal to torturing combatents who actually stabbed those children in the heart, and plan to murder more inoccent people unless we get that information out of him.
noam chumsky is a radical left-wing activist, so it is pretty funny you ask me to bring nutrual quotes and sites, and then quote noam chumsky. it will be just like me bringing an example from glenn beck or ann coulter. would you take it sieriously?
we undoubtfully stand on a much higher moral ground, and i think you will realize that if you think about it.i am sure that any other western country will deal the same with constent misstles on its towns and cities, and constent murder and death done by people who give absolutly no value to human life, espesisally jewish life. i hope any country- if dealing with terrorists holding hostige highschool students or murdering 14 year olds with an ax- will use a firm hand and do anything it takes to make it stop. and with all the sorrow i feel for inoccent cevilians from gaza being killed, for instence- we most protect the lives of our own citizens first.
torturing terrorists who have information that we need to save inoccent civilians, especialy if they refuse to give that information BEFORE the torture- is absolutly okay. while dealing with bloody terrorists who, again, put no value on human life- you must use some sort of violence.again- if they would not plan blowing up buses and shoping malls, we wouldn't need any torturing. they bring it on themselves.
*soldiars who point guns at people for no reason are sentensed and have their gun confiscated.
* home demolisions are done to homes of terrorists that are used to hide wepons and exploseves.
in any case, in no way can you compare any of these examples to delibretly targeting children, hospitals and babys.

baruch goldstein is a lovely example. he was stoped by israeli soldiers, sentensed and jailed untill today. what happens to a terrorist who murders israeli citizens? he is glorified. the only way for terrorist to be sentensed is if WE get him. because the palastinian authurity will in no way even think about it. even if he murdered dozens. in addision- i can count jewish terrorists like baruch goldstein on two hands. its undoubtfully two hands too much, but you can in no way compare it to the thousends of palastinian terrorists.

"death to arabs" slogans is a very poor examle, seeing the thousends who chant "itbach elyahud" in POLITICAL gatharings, not soccor games.

mousqe turtching is terrible, of course, and the israeli police takes care of them. is it the same when sinigouges are burnt and vandelized in arab areas?

sorry for all the spelling mistakes,i'll reply to the rest later...

This post was edited on: 2013-04-11 at 08:55 AM by: sarah


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Farhad

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
Apr 16, 2013


sarah56 wrote:


farhadmiriany wrote:


sarah56 wrote:


farhadmiriany wrote:

Dear Sarah,
You give yourself a hard time to reply quickly. Why are you in hurry? You and I are not in a fight. We are discussing an issue and at most it will be a debate. If you and I are looking to serve the mankind, we may do our best to find he truth and not try our best to be the winner of discussion. If you agree to discuss it without humiliating the other side, then I will reply to your comments.
Otherwise there will be no use to continue and I announce you as the winner. Does that make you satisfied?

One suggestion: you may click on "quote" and then write your criticism. Doing that your views will be easily understood. Wish you good luck.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------
Farhad



farhad- i in no way intended to insult you or anyone else. i reread my post and saw nothing insulting or humiliating. if you would be more specific id know what not to say next time.
obviously i am not meaning to "win" any "fight", and don't understand how you got to the conclusion that i did. i am merely trying to have a polite debate, if you find my words hurtful please say so.

i happen to see your post right away and had free time, like now. i am in a year of national service and usually have no time to reply so quickly, now is our passover vacation *

-Sarah.


You are a quick learner Sarah. Congratulations.

There are many points in your posts that I will discuss with you when you come out of service. Of course if I would be alive on that time.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------
Farhad



I don't really see a reason not to discuss it now, but if you are not intrested in discussing you don't have to.
Of course, God willing you will be alive and well*


Dear Sarah,
As I understand you do not have sufficient time these days and you feel responsible to reply quickly. I have authored few books. Many times an author does his/her best to revise whatever is published before. I suggest you to take it easy until you have more time.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------
Farhad


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sarah

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
Apr 19, 2013

"You seem to feel that this is unique for Israel. This sentence applies to everywhere equally."

i'm not sure it applies to everywhere, sadly, but in any case i do not feel it is unique to israel. where did you get that from?

"What different opinions have you heard? Could you provide specific examples? In my case I read Ilan Pappe, Amira Hass, Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, Naomi Klein, and Robert Fisk. They all pretty much support my argument. I have read also some pro-Israeli authors such as Daniel Pipes and Alan Dershowitz."

i've heard different opinions by ordinary people, not known authers. but yes- i read amira has's opinions and alan dershowitz.
you may come to realize that each opinion can give examples and statistics that soppurt thier claims.

"Any examples?"

mainly different newspapers- israeli, american and british.

"I have been living in the region for 27 years, and travelled in countries like Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Tunisia, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Oman and Turkey. I have also been to Palestinian refugee camps in the suburbs of Damascus and Beirut. Does this make either of our arguments more or less correct. The decisive factor lies in the Haganah and the IDF own archives"

actually it does make my argument more correct, since i actually live what we are discussing. it is very nice that you travel a lot, but you surely don't beleive you can compair. iv'e traveled in italy, that does not make me an italian (well, part of me is actually italian, but thats not the point*)- and i do not know as well as an italian does about his country and whats going on in it.
for example- i actually know a lot about the IDF and am tecnicly a part of it now. i know the rules and regulations and hear from combat soldiars what they do and whats going on. so you can read and hear opinions about the "evil israeli army that murders for absalutly no reason", but i live it and know about it hands on, and know it's simply not true at all. are there soldiars who harm for no reason? of course. they are furmly taken care of. army POLICY? no way. iv'e seen it nowhere, and beleive me iv'e looked.

This post was edited on: 2013-04-19 at 07:07 AM by: sarah


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Saladin

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
May 20, 2013

so you will have to dehumanise a large persentage of the palastinian population, as well as the hamas leadership in gaza (a terrorist orginization which delibratly kills inuccent civilians), which was democraticly chosen by the gazan people.

Regardless of the obvious spelling and syntax errors, I got your main idea. The phrase (Deliberately kills innocent civilians) applies equally to the IDF, the official army of the State of Israel. I assure you that I condemn Hamas for killing innocent civilians; I am not a big fan of their ideological motives and governance style either. However, would you have the moral courage and honesty to condemn the IDF for the same charge you are charging Hamas with?
(Democratically chosen by the Gazan people) – I don’t buy into the theory that Gazans elected Hamas because they were promoting war against Israel. The simple fact lies that the Pals were kind of fed up with the traditionally corrupt PLO and its figures. The one and only alternative they found to the PLO was Hamas, which is itself an organization that Israel had created in the late 1980’s to counteract Yassir Arafat and divide the Palestinians from within. This is according to the army of scholars I cited before by the way.
The ones who are dehumanizing ALL of the Palestinian population are those setting out the economic and logistic blockade on the Gaza Strip, and swallowing their lands in the West Bank and East Jerusalem through settlement expansion and the construction of the separation wall.

This post was edited on: 2013-05-21 at 10:26 AM by: Saladin


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Saladin

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
May 20, 2013

i also do not understand why you will condemn israel so badly and not the palastinian othourity or hamas half as much, since you surely don't believe that delibratly stabbing children in the heart is equal to torturing combatents who actually stabbed those children in the heart, and plan to murder more inoccent people unless we get that information out of him.

I stated my condemnation of violence by either sides countless times. The difference is that Israel is the more powerful side, it’s the promised “Oasis of Democracy” in the Middle East, as Israelis always claim. Obviously speaking, a state championing the values of “Purity of Arms” should not model its violence techniques on neighboring terrorist organizations.

noam chumsky is a radical left-wing activist, so it is pretty funny you ask me to bring nutrual quotes and sites, and then quote noam chumsky. it will be just like me bringing an example from glenn beck or ann coulter. would you take it sieriously?

Hiding behind argumentum-ad-hominem is the easiest way to avoid answering the questions raised by Chomsky and his look-alikes. I don’t have any problems if you bring quotes from Pipes or Dershowitz, we are discussing ideas regardless of whom is raising them.

we undoubtfully stand on a much higher moral ground, and i think you will realize that if you think about it.i am sure that any other western country will deal the same with constent misstles on its towns and cities, and constent murder and death done by people who give absolutly no value to human life, espesisally jewish life.

I see. Like chanting in chorus “Death to Arabs” in football games between Beitar Yerushalayim and Sakhnin, occasional torching of mosques, and hailing a serial killer with the everlasting nickname of “Baruch the Hero”. Right, that’s the exact higher moral ground where Europeans and other westerners would have stood if they were in Israel’s place.

This post was edited on: 2013-05-21 at 10:25 AM by: Saladin


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Saladin

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
May 20, 2013

i hope any country- if dealing with terrorists holding hostige highschool students or murdering 14 year olds with an ax- will use a firm hand and do anything it takes to make it stop. and with all the sorrow i feel for inoccent cevilians from gaza being killed, for instence- we most protect the lives of our own citizens first. torturing terrorists who have information that we need to save inoccent civilians, especialy if they refuse to give that information BEFORE the torture- is absolutly okay. while dealing with bloody terrorists who, again, put no value on human life- you must use some sort of violence.again- if they would not plan blowing up buses and shoping malls, we wouldn't need any torturing. they bring it on themselves.

Come on! You are accusing Chomsky to be a far-left extremist and you are now justifying torture? My goodness.

*soldiars who point guns at people for no reason are sentensed and have their gun confiscated.
Good. But please cite us some cases in support of this statement.

* home demolisions are done to homes of terrorists that are used to hide wepons and exploseves.


That’s way far from reality, I am afraid. Check this report by B’Tselem - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories:

On 17 February 2005, Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz adopted an IDF committee's recommendation to stop demolishing the homes of Palestinians suspected of carrying out attacks against Israelis. The committee found that house demolitions are not an efficient deterrent.
Despite this decision, in 2009, Israel demolished one housing unit in East Jerusalem and sealed two.
Since 1967, Israel has implemented a policy of demolishing and sealing houses in the West Bank and Gaza Strip as a punitive measure against the Palestinian population. The scope of punitive house demolitions has varied over the years (in the four-year period 1998-2001, it was not used), in part because most Palestinians were living in areas in which governing powers had been transferred to the Palestinian Authority, and the IDF did not enter those areas. In October 2001, during IDF actions in Area A in the West Bank, Israel renewed its policy of punitive house demolitions.
[/b]



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Saladin

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
May 20, 2013

Continued:

The declared objective of house demolitions was deterrence, achieved by harming the relatives of Palestinians who carried out, or were suspected of involvement in carrying out, attacks against Israeli citizens and soldiers. Indeed, the main victims of the demolitions were family members, among them women, the elderly, and children, who bore no responsibility for the acts of their relative and were not suspected of involvement in any offense. In the vast majority of house demolitions, the person because of whom the house was demolished no longer lived in the house, either because he was “wanted” by Israel and was in hiding, or because he was being held by Israel and was awaiting a long prison sentence, or because he had been killed by security forces or in the attack he carried out.
Israel tried to give the impression that it destroys only homes of Palestinians who were directly involved in attacks that caused many Israeli civilian casualties. In practice, the IDF also demolished homes of Palestinians who were involved in any kind of violent actions against Israelis, from suicide attacks that caused many casualties, to failed attempts against soldiers' lives. Also, not only did Israel demolish houses of persons suspected of carrying out attacks or of attempting to carry out attacks, it also demolished the house of Palestinians suspected of planning, dispatching, or assisting in the commission of attacks.
It should be mentioned that the deterrent effect of house demolitions has never been proven. In his book on the first intifada, Brigadier General Ariyeh Shalev examined the effect of house demolitions on the scope of violence. He found that the number of violent events did not diminish following house demolitions, and at times even rose. Similar findings were reached in an internal IDF report on house demolitions during the al-Aqsa intifada. In their book The Seventh War, journalists Amos Harel and Avi Isacharoff reported that the IDF report stated there was no proof of the deterrent effect of house demolitions, and that the number of attacks even rose a few months after implementation of the policy began. However, regardless of the deterrent effect, B'Tselem believes that the effectiveness of a particular measure does not make it legal.



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Saladin

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
May 20, 2013


baruch goldstein is a lovely example. he was stoped by israeli soldiers, sentensed and jailed untill today. what happens to a terrorist who murders israeli citizens? he is glorified. the only way for terrorist to be sentensed is if WE get him. because the palastinian authurity will in no way even think about it. even if he murdered dozens. in addision- i can count jewish terrorists like baruch goldstein on two hands. its undoubtfully two hands too much, but you can in no way compare it to the thousends of palastinian terrorists.


First, Baruch is hailed within the Jewish settler population as “Baruch the Hero”…and second, what happened to Israel’s “Higher Moral Ground”?

"death to arabs" slogans is a very poor examle, seeing the thousends who chant "itbach elyahud" in POLITICAL gatharings, not soccor games.

Well, Netanyahu once said that Palestinians are “animals”, that’s a statement made by the top political figure in Israel. Death to Arabs is an example that shows that those who claim to be standing on higher moral ground have actually no moral superiority as opposed to their rivals.

mousqe turtching is terrible, of course, and the israeli police takes care of them. is it the same when sinigouges are burnt and vandelized in arab areas?

Same answer as above…now who’s standing on the higher moral ground. You guys need to stop buying into these myths, seriously!


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Saladin

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
May 20, 2013


"You seem to feel that this is unique for Israel. This sentence applies to everywhere equally."

i'm not sure it applies to everywhere, sadly, but in any case i do not feel it is unique to israel. where did you get that from?


Your initial statement was: since we live in a state where for every 3 people there are 4 opinions, the fact that the author is Israeli says absolutely nothing.

This equally applies to anywhere else:

In Egypt, for instance, we are currently divided between Political Islamism, salafism, leftism, anarchism, secularism, liberalism, and those who support the ousted regime. The same fiasco is in Tunisia and Libya. You can hardly find any place where all people agree on one thing.

"What different opinions have you heard? Could you provide specific examples? In my case I read Ilan Pappe, Amira Hass, Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, Naomi Klein, and Robert Fisk. They all pretty much support my argument. I have read also some pro-Israeli authors such as Daniel Pipes and Alan Dershowitz."

i've heard different opinions by ordinary people, not known authers. but yes- i read amira has's opinions and alan dershowitz.
you may come to realize that each opinion can give examples and statistics that soppurt thier claims.

"Any examples?"

mainly different newspapers- israeli, american and british.


Please be specific, these one-liner replies can hardly stand in front of any serious argument.


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Saladin

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
May 20, 2013


"I have been living in the region for 27 years, and travelled in countries like Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Tunisia, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Oman and Turkey. I have also been to Palestinian refugee camps in the suburbs of Damascus and Beirut. Does this make either of our arguments more or less correct. The decisive factor lies in the Haganah and the IDF own archives"

actually it does make my argument more correct, since i actually live what we are discussing. it is very nice that you travel a lot, but you surely don't beleive you can compair. iv'e traveled in italy, that does not make me an italian (well, part of me is actually italian, but thats not the point*)- and i do not know as well as an italian does about his country and whats going on in it.


Not sure what you are trying to imply. You might live inside one side of the argument for 100 years, but the bad news is: you need to have a grasp of how life looks like on the other side. Got what I am implying?

for example- i actually know a lot about the IDF and am tecnicly a part of it now. i know the rules and regulations and hear from combat soldiars what they do and whats going on. so you can read and hear opinions about the "evil israeli army that murders for absalutly no reason", but i live it and know about it hands on, and know it's simply not true at all. are there soldiars who harm for no reason? of course. they are furmly taken care of. army POLICY? no way. iv'e seen it nowhere, and beleive me iv'e looked.

If you are currently part of the IDF I urge you to read its own archives for the 1947-1948-1949 events. They might ring any bell.


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