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sarah

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
Oct 26, 2011

hi Alex.
I've seen your video. just for the record, i would advise you of seeing historically correct videos. part of being historically correct is showing the WHOLE truth, not just the small parts you want to hear.
now, about this video:
*no one says (not that i know of, anyway) that Arabs and Jews have been fighting for thousands of years.
*"the Jews flourished in the Arab world"? did they really? in an older post of mine I've mentioned only some of many incidents that took place on Arab land. read it. if you think its not enough, I'll bring more. sure, compared to Nazi Germany in the 1940's everywhere else was great. it doesn't mean we were flourishing.
*Jews have wanted to return to Israel ever since we were kicked out 2,000 years ago. we did not "start" it in the end of the 19th century.
*Zionism did indeed start in Europe, but what they are not saying is that it spread all over the world. there were Zionists in Arab, American, Latin and soviet countries as well. saying it is a small movement is also incorrect. it STARTED OUT small, just like any other movement, and it grew.
*threw out the whole video, like most anti Israeli videos, they are completely ignoring the strong connection the Jewish people have for this land, the fact that we were physically created here as a nation, the fact that we were exiled out violently and not allowed to come back for many years, and that Jews have maintained communities here for centuries. it is easy for them to ignore all this, since then they turn us out to be colonialists that take over countries for no reason.
*they are also ignoring the fact that Arabs who lived here came from other Arab countries like Saudi Arabia and Egypt, the fact that they never thought about creating a country and showed no disier to until Zionism came along, the fact that they never even saw themselves as individual people ("Palestinians&quotwink, but regular Arabs like any other, and- the classic topic that always "slips the mind"- the fact that these Arabs have never tried discussing, rather they use violence time after time, since the first Jewish slaughtering in hebron in the early 1900's. (a topic which seems to "slip your mind", too)
*saying that Palestine was empty is incorrect, but it was also far from being full. think about it- we are over 7 million citizens today, and there's STILL a tun of land that is not yet settled in the Galilee, the Golan heights and the Negev- the south. so how can the land be full then, with 462,465 people only, like the video states? there was more then enough room.
*of COARSE Palestine was not really empty from people, what peace of land IS? Palestine was empty from a NATION. of coarse Arabs lived there, but not as a nation.
*"high level of culture and education"? that is not true at all. showing a picture of an Arab holding a book says nothing. the land was dry, empty and unsettled. see what mark twain has to say about it when he comes to the land in the 1890's. obviously, the video is trying to make it look like Palestine was a thriving country with thriving, cultural people. it is simply not the case.
...


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sarah

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
Oct 26, 2011

*of COARSE "the population was overwhelmingly Arab" when Jews were kicked out and not allowed to return, and the Jewish communities that WERE here were being slaughtered. what can you expect?
*the mec- mehon letters were not formal, unlike the Balfour declaration which was. in addition, Britain never broke their promise to the Palestinian Arabs for self rule, the gave it to them on half the land that was promised to us, and is now Jordan. the rest of the land was ALSO split into 2 to create ANOTHER Arab state in 1948. but as history goes, the Arabs never excepted it and went strait out to war and terror. and they still do.
*Arabs here were NEVER denied the right of self determination. the got all of Jordan and the rights for half of Israel, PLUS the rights of living an equal, modern life in the Jewish state. this video is completely ignoring a huge chunk of history, just cause it doesn't fit they're propaganda.
*since we originally came from the land of Israel, it is not correct to call us a "European power". we returned to were we came from.
*they're using the excuse of "land was being striped away from local residence", for terrible killing of men, woman and children in the 1920's. besides that being no excuse at all, it is not correct since in the 1920's, the main "clash" between us was in hebron, an area were Arabs and Jews lived side by side and were great nagbures.
*they use the word "clashes" instead of "murdering", "killing" or "slaughtering" to make the Arabs look all cute and innocent, and us to be the bad guys when it is actually the opposite.
*if we're already metuning hitler, the leader of the Palestinian Arabs, hadj amin el hussieni, met up with him to create a plan of butchering the Jews in Israel as well. so much for sweet innocent Arabs, huh? again, they didn't put this in the video.
*the video turns the whole thing around and makes it look like we're flooding the land and makes us look threatening, when historically we brought agriculture and modernization to the land that was then a third world "country". most of the Jews bought from Arabs and hired them for work. it brought to the Palestinian Arabs only good.
*of coarse the Palestinian Arabs were not responsible for the holocaust, and they didn't pay any price since the land was never they'res.
*the UN partition plan came AFTER several other plans. i suggest you look them up and see what the Arabs turned down.
*the Arabs didn't even SETTLE on 92% of the land, let-alone OWN it. how can they? with 7 million citizens nowadays, 92% of the land STILL isn't settled.
*if you look at the map, you can clearly see we were not given the most furtal land, since most of the land we were given was the Negev, witch was completely not "furtal".
*starting from 4:49 they are talking about our independence war. they show the IDF symbol and video clips from this war. yet, this war that was started by 4 huge Arab militaries in the propose of erasing Israel, is refored to here as " Zionists... immediately began occupying major Arab cities in Palestine"
WHAT? can they possibly twist history any more?? you sound like a reasonable, educated guy. i can't believe you actually see this as history.
...


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sarah

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
Oct 26, 2011

*"very few Arab soldiers were sent into the battle field"? no WAY was there more Israeli soldiers then Arab. from Wikipedia: "Israel: 29,677 initially rising to 115,000 by March 1949. This includes the entire military personnel count—both combat units and logistical units. Egypt: 10,000 initially, rising to 20,000
Iraq: 3,000 initially, rising to 15,000–18,000
Syria: 2,500–5,000
Transjordan: 8,000–12,000
Lebanon: 1,000[8]
Saudi Arabia: 800–1,200
Yemen: 300
Arab Liberation Army: 3,500–6,000
These numbers include only the combat units sent to the former British Mandate of Palestine, not the entire military strength"
therefore, what they're saying in this video is a lie.
*the Palestinian refugees is another interesting topic, witch I'll discuss with you later on.
*some of the Palestinian refugees were allowed to return in 1949, but they didn't want to. now they are not allowed back for security reasons.
*since Israel is the Jewish homeland, every Jew has the automatic right to return to it. i say return because that's what it is. we came from here, we were kicked out, and now were returning. this is our homeland.

i would appreciate it if you would at least address some of my points, so we can actually have a discussion, k?

wow. This is disturbingly long. Hope you can get threw it :P


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sarah

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
Jan 27, 2012

hey, did you look any of it up yet?nerdy


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abbarighton

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
Apr 30, 2012

I like the perspective expressed in an article titled The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.

It discusses the history of Palestine since 1917, when the British took over after the Palestinians led by Lawrence of Arabia drove the Ottoman Turks out.

It tells both sides of the story, and it is fairly balanced in its assessment, even though some people think it is biased because they don't like its conclusions.


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Saladin

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
Aug 26, 2012

Sarah, I advise you to have a go through a book entitled, "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine", written by the Israeli auhtor Ilan Pappé. It is an Israeli own account of everything you are staunchly refuting, based on the Haganah archives and other Israeli accounts of the Nakba.

I recommend reading Pappé as an essential step prior to stepping over and jumping to unfounded apologetics. The book simply exposes such sorts of pro-Israeli propaganda, and proves they hold no water.


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sarah

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
Jan 5, 2013

i suggest you start reading objective material, if you want to actually find out the truth.
I've lived in Israel for 16 years of my life, have been threw 4 wars here, know many soldiers and am going to be a soldier myself next year. so i guess i can say that i know what I'm talking about. many of you here, on the other hand, have never been to Israel and have never heard any other opinion about this conflict.
I'd be happy to discuss it.


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Saladin

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
Jan 15, 2013

I am failing to comprehend how an Israeli account of the 1948 events, based on Israeli primary sources (e.g., the Haganah's own archives)be dismissed as biased material.

The fact that you have lived in Israel 16 years of your life is absolutely irrelevant as to the extent to which you pretend to know what you are discussing, absent any rational evidence refuting the information provided in the Haganah's own archive, which demonstrates the terrifying scale of the systematic Palestinian ethnic cleansing in 1947-1948.

I can tell you that I lived 26 years of my life across the Middle East, between Egypt, Morocco, and Saudi Arabia, added to my travels in North Africa, the Levant, and the Gulf. I have even lived in the UK for two years. Nevertheless, my father and two of his cousins fought against Israel in 4 consecutive wars. This does not make me more or less knowledgeable about the issue.

Nevertheless, citing your military aspiration is a further incrimination as to the objectivity of your own views. This is at least how I see it.


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sarah

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
Jan 15, 2013

you are not talking about "hagana" archives, you are talking about a book titled "the ethnic clensing of palistine". shurely you can see that this is not abjective history, unless you completly ignore the other side of the story.

i don't protend to know what i am discussing, i actually do know what im discussing. living in this land for 16 years is actually extremely relevant- i am not talking about terrorist attacks from opinion colloms, im talking from my own life experiance. i am not discussing home demolitions and ethnic clennsing based on nothing, but rather based on the real knolege i have of the IDF (israeli diffence force)and all the soldiers i know. i am not talking about minority's rights because im puliticly correct, but because i know arab-israelis, pass threw arab vileges and am now living in a mixed city of jews from all over the world, muslims, christians, druze and churks.

is there racism in israel? sure, there' racism turds arabs, beduins, russian jews, ethiopian jews,arab jews and many more. we surly can use more pluralism and libral ideas, no doubt. but is israel a racest STATE? is there a racest POLACY here in israel? no, there is not. and no book can change that fact.

the fact that i will join the army next year has absolutly nothing to do with my personal views. our army is the israeli DIFFENCE force. it is here to deffend close to 8 million citizens (including many arabs, by the way. hundreds of arabs died along side with jews thanks to your father, his cusins and many others. including in the last war this year). to make sure 6 year olds don't blow up with their parents on the way to school and 14 year olds don't get murdered with an ax.
are there army and state policies i don't agree with? sure, like in any other democratic state. and i, along with millions of israelis, think there should be a palastinian state. nevertheless, this does not make us half of how you picture us.

sorry for all the spelling mistakes big grin


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Saladin

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
Jan 17, 2013

[quote]you are not talking about "hagana" archives, you are talking about a book titled "the ethnic clensing of palistine". shurely you can see that this is not abjective history, unless you completly ignore the other side of the story.[/quote]

The first verse revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as we Muslims believe is "Read". I extend this invitation to you to read the compelling amount of evidence presented in the book entitled, "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine", which is all direct quotes from the Haganah's own archives. The author himself is even Israeli.

[quote]i don't protend to know what i am discussing, i actually do know what im discussing. living in this land for 16 years is actually extremely relevant- i am not talking about terrorist attacks from opinion colloms, im talking from my own life experiance. [/quote]

How come you know what you are discussing while admitting not having read the subject I am tackling? Please enlighten me.

[quote]i am not discussing home demolitions and ethnic clennsing based on nothing, but rather based on the real knolege i have of the IDF (israeli diffence force)and all the soldiers i know. [/quote]

If the Haganah archives count as "[i]nothing[/i]" for you, then I can hardly find any suitable answer rather than repeating my invitation for you to have a look at this book.

The essential problem lies in your deep belief that the knowledge you extract from IDF sources to support your case is unbiased. I am quoting Israeli sources to support my views, whilst you are also citing IDF sources; this is the fundamental weakness of your argument.

[quote]i am not talking about minority's rights because im puliticly correct, but because i know arab-israelis, pass threw arab vileges and am now living in a mixed city of jews from all over the world, muslims, christians, druze and churks.[/quote]

No one actually tackled the issue of minority rights in Israel. I do have some reservations in this regards though, but such issues can be discussed in a separate thread.

[quote]is there racism in israel? sure, there' racism turds arabs, beduins, russian jews, ethiopian jews,arab jews and many more. we surly can use more pluralism and libral ideas, no doubt. but is israel a racest STATE? is there a racest POLACY here in israel? no, there is not. and no book can change that fact.[/quote]

I can confidently tell you that some laws in Israel discriminate between Jewish and non-Jewish citizens. But, again, this is irrelevant to the issue of the Palestinian [i]Nakba[/i] of 1948, unless you want me to go through some of these examples; a task I will happily undertake.

This post was edited on: 2013-01-17 at 05:06 AM by: Saladin


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Saladin

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
Jan 17, 2013

[b]the fact that i will join the army next year has absolutly nothing to do with my personal views. our army is the israeli DIFFENCE force. it is here to deffend close to 8 million citizens (including many arabs, by the way. hundreds of arabs died along side with jews thanks to your father, his cusins and many others. including in the last war this year).to make sure 6 year olds don't blow up with their parents on the way to school and 14 year olds don't get murdered with an ax.[/b][i]

With all my due respect, but I regard this as patriotic apologetic discourse. The IDF's longstanding record of human rights violations, massacres against civilians, mass detention of civilians, cruel interrogation methods, and extra-judicial killings stretches your argument so thin.

[b]are there army and state policies i don't agree with? sure, like in any other democratic state. and i, along with millions of israelis, think there should be a palastinian state.
nevertheless, this does not make us half of how you picture us.[/b][/i]

I am not portraying Israelis in any particular way other than glossing over the views of an Israeli authors, which are based on Israeli documents and accounts.

[b]sorry for all the spelling mistakes [/b][i]

Not at all.

This post was edited on: 2013-01-17 at 05:08 AM by: Saladin


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sarah

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
Mar 31, 2013

"The first verse revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as we Muslims believe is "Read". I extend this invitation to you to read the compelling amount of evidence presented in the book entitled, "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine", which is all direct quotes from the Haganah's own archives. The author himself is even Israeli."

since we live in a state where for every 3 people there are 4 opinions, the fact that the author is Israeli says absolutely nothing. the more you read different opinions about this conflict you will come to realize that there are many "facts" which hide parts of history, many "facts" that ignore the rest of the facts that don't fit a specific agenda, atc. I've read a lot about the hagana, have been to museums and places like that, and have heard of no "ethnic cleansing" done by them. i will read that book when i get a chance to, though.
what does PBUH stand for?


"How come you know what you are discussing while admitting not having read the subject I am tackling? Please enlighten me."

i know what i am discussing since i have read about the subject (many different opinions)- although not the specific book you mentioned, and more important- have lived here for 19 years, 4 wars and many, many missiles and terrorist attacks. i have seen how time and time again my country would offer ridicules offerings to stop all this violence and work turds peace, and how the Palestinian authority and the Hamas will ignore all this and continue the violence. i am not talking about self deffence "violence". i am not talking about reacting to terrorism. i am talking about walking into a house and stabbing three children to death, and slashing a baby's throat. i am talking about blowing up a restaurant, and blowing it up again when help comes. i am talking about deliberately shooting to death high school students and blowing up in a club full of teenagers. saying this is a reaction to us "stealing their land" will not be tolerated anywhere else, even if it was true. but since there have been 4 serious offers of a Palestinian state since 1948 and the Palestinians NEVER TAKE IT, it's a really poor claim.


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Farhad

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
Mar 31, 2013

The main problem with the recent centuries is that some words have purposely lost the primary meanings.

Christianity: obviously it is a belief and as a result Christians are followers of Christ. It is accepted that Christians are peoples of various races and nationalities.

Islam: the same explanation goes for Islam and Muslims and it is accepted that Muslims are also peoples of various nationalities and races.

Buddhism, Hinduism: the same as above.

Judaism: before the creation of the state of Israel after the Second World War, Judaism was accepted as a belief and not as a nation by followers of other beliefs. Followers of Judaism were living in many places of this world and most were satisfied. The main reason is that we do not witness any serious harming of Jews until the creation of Hitler’s Nazi state for which contemporary Germans do not feel good at all.
Even now, there are lots of Jews who claim to be citizens of other countries and not Israel. But as one of the results of the Second World War, the new state of Israel was created (please do not remind me that Jews were expelled from Palestine 2000 years ago).

If we accept this theory (used for creation of Israel) for followers of all beliefs, we may come to conclusions that all Christians have the rights to build one nation and government and return to the Birth Land of Jesus Christ and all followers of Islam return to the current Saudi Arabia.

I am from Iran (the ancient Persia). I do admire Cyrus the great who freed Jews in Babylon. But I never and never admire the burning of Athens by Persian army. Freeing of Jews was to the benefit of the mankind but burning of Athens (done by any one) was a shame.
Let go a little further to the religious history. Israel is the second name of Jacob, believed to be a profit of God by Jews, Christians and Muslims. Why and how could a land named after him be claimed for one group only? There are tombs of Jewish profits in Iran that are visited and respected by Jews, Christians and Muslims. There are tombs of Christian holies visited and respected by Christians and Muslims.
New state of Israel was created by a limited number of people having influence who also took advantage of the opportunities of the post Second World War conditions.

The questions are;
1- Were the planet and humanity served by creating the new state of Israel?
2- What were the benefits? Did it bring more peace to our planet or presented hate and violence?
3- Could all of us, of all of beliefs find better ways for accepting and tolerating each other without using force?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------
Farhad


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sarah

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
Mar 31, 2013

"Judaism: before the creation of the state of Israel after the Second World War, Judaism was accepted as a belief and not as a nation by followers of other beliefs."

this is simply not true. Jews have seen themselves as a nation all along, that is the main difference between Judaism and other religions. everyone has seen Jews as a nation, and that is simply how it was.

"Followers of Judaism were living in many places of this world and most were satisfied."

this is also not entirely true- Jews have suffered all around the world from persecution and antisemitism. this was true in eurapian countries, Arab countries and African countries.

"we may come to conclusions that all Christians have the rights to build one nation and government and return to the Birth Land of Jesus Christ and all followers of Islam return to the current Saudi Arabia."

this is twisted logic. not only were Jews expelled from Israel, they were never allowed back as a nation. for 2,000 years we tried to return, the whole world new that.
in addition, there were always Jewish communities in Israel- in Safed, Tiberius, Jerusalem, Hebron. just as there were Arabs. so what right do Arabs have for a state that Jews don't?
i understand that your opinion is the same opinion for Arabs that left and are no longer in the area. so you are agents the Palestinians "right of return"?

"Israel is the second name of Jacob, believed to be a profit of God by Jews, Christians and Muslims. Why and how could a land named after him be claimed for one group only?"

again- this is not correct. Jacob is the Jewish "forfather", while the Muslim forfather is Ishmael and the christian father is believed to be esav.

"There are tombs of Jewish profits in Iran that are visited and respected by Jews, Christians and Muslims. There are tombs of Christian holies visited and respected by Christians and Muslims."

exactly. there are many different holy places in Iran for many different people, but Iran is still a Muslim country. isn't it? that's my point. Israel has many different holy places for many different people. but it's still a Jewish state.

"New state of Israel was created by a limited number of people having influence who also took advantage of the opportunities of the post Second World War conditions."

Zionist Jews have worked for a homeland since 1882, not 1945. and of coarse, Jews have worked hard to get to Israel way beforehand.

"The questions are;
1- Were the planet and humanity served by creating the new state of Israel?"

Israel has contributed to society unproportionately to it's size and age in science, literature, health, atc., and sends humanitarian groups to almost every crises that took place in the past 50 years at least. in addition, we contribute to the citizens who live here (which include Jews, Muslims, Christians, Bedouins, churks, refugees atc.) we also contributed to the lives of all the Jews who were refugees from WW2, and Jews in terrible conditions from morocco, Yemen, Tunisia, Ethiopia, India atc.


"2- What were the benefits? Did it bring more peace to our planet or presented hate and violence?"

in addition to what i already wrote, Israel is in a daily struggle for peace. believe me- its what we most want.

"3- Could all of us, of all of beliefs find better ways for accepting and tolerating each other without using force?"

that's what we try doing- and i really do hope so. i pray for the day the Palestinian side will want the same.


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Farhad

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Re: the israelo-palestinian war
Mar 31, 2013

Dear Sarah,
You give yourself a hard time to reply quickly. Why are you in hurry? You and I are not in a fight. We are discussing an issue and at most it will be a debate. If you and I are looking to serve the mankind, we may do our best to find he truth and not try our best to be the winner of discussion. If you agree to discuss it without humiliating the other side, then I will reply to your comments.
Otherwise there will be no use to continue and I announce you as the winner. Does that make you satisfied?

One suggestion: you may click on "quote" and then write your criticism. Doing that your views will be easily understood. Wish you good luck.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------
Farhad


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