 Author |
 Post
|
 |
|
margie
Joined: Nov 3, 2003
Posts: 1 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Tongue-tied
User is
Offline
Country: United States
Province/State: New York
City: Cortland
|
how do people feel about gays adopting?
November 4, 2003 - 12:00 PM
|
|
I am wondering how everyone feels about gays both male and females, couples and singles adopting children. I feel that as long as a child is going to a loving home what should it matter. Please post your feelings
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Luke Lieberman
Joined: Feb 13, 2003
Posts: 3007 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Blabbermouth
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 33
Country: United States
Province/State: California
|
Re: how do people feel about gays adopting?
November 4, 2003 - 01:38 AM
|
|
Abongta - I have to say I am sincerley dissappointed in you.
"Look at the case of a homosexual couple, well we could accept homosexuals as people with their preferred style of life and as people we can’t do anything about changing their sexual preferences or orientations. Homosexuality to me is all the ways bad and filthy but then I can’t kill or incinerate somebody who chooses to be a homosexual." - Abongta
Uh... excuse me - incinerate. Are you saying you would kill these people if you could?
You really don't understand the first thing about homosexuality - you are comparing it to alchohaulism? That is a chemical addiction that litterally changes body chemistry and creates physical need.
If you don't think homosexuality is something you are born with - you obviously have not met very many - some guys are just gay - period.
Anyway, just to let you know - you do not sound enlightened - you sound like a bigot. Intolorance and predjudice are no more acceptable when leveled at homosexuals then when it is leveled at blacks.
I also want you to think practically for a second - there are many more children then people to care for them in the foster system. So either these kids are going to have a home or they are not. What do you think is more objectionable - adoption or abortion? because there are not very many other options and you are trying to turn good people away from adoption.
So long as the adopting parents do not have a prior record which makes them suspect - I would say any home is better than none at all.
Homosexuals can have just as enlightened a world view as anyone else - one of the people who origonally put TIG together is gay. Being gay does not distort your view of reality like a drug addiction.
This issue actually occured to me yesterday - I was visiting a friend and met one of his roommates - she was a very sweet girl, just cooking dinner and we got to talking about classic rock and martial arts.
She is a cool girl - we had an instant rapport and I instantly liked her as a person. Some time later in the night I found out she was a lesbian - do you know what my reaction was - I didn't have one, I didn't bat an eye, I didn't care. I understood that she was a cool person - AND THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS!
"Judge not lest ye be judged" - Jesus
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Luke Lieberman
Joined: Feb 13, 2003
Posts: 3007 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Blabbermouth
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 33
Country: United States
Province/State: California
|
Re: how do people feel about gays adopting?
November 4, 2003 - 02:00 AM
|
|
Jeez - now I have read a bit further and Abongta - you are so full of crap in so many places I don't know where to begin.
kids in homosexual households have a %99 chance of being homosexual? - please show me where you got that number - please.
If you can't back that number up I would like you to admit that you LIED and made it up in order to support a bigoted arguement.
It funny to have a bald faced liar lecture on morality - but that is for later.
"Homosexuality is all the way bad and that homosexuals should not be allowed under what ever condition to adopt children less they breed another alien species of humans." - Abongta
well, you know this is not the first time that bigots have tried classifying certain people as non-humans in order to justify thier prejudice. Hitler did it when he tried to explain that Jews were devolved, they were an evil alien species that needed to be destroyed. The white man did it when he needed to rationalize their enslavement of blacks - remember 'black people are more like monkeys than men'
Now you are employing the same kind of faulty reasoning when you talk about gays to justify your prejudices against them.
What is downright hilarious is to hear you try to rationalize why it is different when you do it to gays bacause they really are an alien species and when Hitler did it he was just wrong.
Abongta - you need to take a long hard look in the mirror and decide what kind of person you want to be.
(-; if you are not careful I am going to suggest that fat people shouldn't adopt because they teach the kids unhealthy eating habits - come on - as though you are above reproach - jeez.
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Crystal_Abongta
Joined: Oct 18, 2002
Posts: 175 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Chatterbox
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 36
Country: Cameroon
|
That would be a crime against humanity
November 4, 2003 - 02:47 AM
|
|
I say it again and again; everything depends on how you do it and the prevailing conditions. Everything matters again if we put in some morals. Adoption is not bad but the circumstances under which the adoption is done might make it bad to be accepted.
If a hetero sexual couple adopt a child out of love for that child or because they need a child and can’t biologically have one, then the moral justifications of such an operation is acceptable and normal. We know for sure they would take care of the child and that he/she would grow up to be the person he/she was meant to be, he/she would be able to take decision about his/her life when the time comes.
Look at the case of a homosexual couple, well we could accept homosexuals as people with their preferred style of life and as people we can’t do anything about changing their sexual preferences or orientations. Homosexuality to me is all the ways bad and filthy but then I can’t kill or incinerate somebody who chooses to be a homosexual.
If the question of adoption comes up, then it is not proper for them to adopt for what ever reason no matter they financial resources to take care of the baby. The innocent child should not be place in a position where he/she would be forced or inspired by circumstances to adopt a particular sexual orientation in the future. Children adopted by homosexuals have a 99% chance of becoming homosexuals and worst still they stand would grow up in an immoral atmosphere back home. Don’t tell me homosexuals have the least atom of morals in them.
Bring up a child entails ensuring a conducive atmosphere for the child to grow up as a responsible human being guarded by morals and a sane conscience but you would agree with me that homosexuals are a group of people who have lost touch with their inner beings – call it the conscience.
Some of the turmoils in the world today are generated by homosexuals, look they have brought discord in communities, governments, and today the church. The Anglican Church is facing a crisis today because of the coronation of a homosexual bishop.
In a nut shell, I am saying that homosexuals should never be allowed to adopt children for what ever reason. It is enough for them to be allowed to be and live their lives as they are.
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Terri Willard
Joined: Jul 27, 2001
Posts: 370 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Blabbermouth
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Female, 40
Country: Canada
Province/State: Manitoba
City: Winnipeg
|
Are we okay?
November 4, 2003 - 03:01 AM
|
|
Originally posted by Abongta
I have learned over the years that effecting change is best done by being part of the process, you can’t effect change by staying away from the factors to be changed.
I agree wholeheartedly with that statement, which is the only reason that I periodically subject myself to being an active participant in threads re: homosexuality on TIG - despite the fact that they leave me physically shaking with rage and frustration (and even further behind on work I should be doing). But, I cannot change your attitude about homosexuality without being present and bearing witness the the discussion.
As an early member of TIG who has been tracking its evolution since I first met Jennifer Correiro at the GKII conference in March 2000, I believe wholeheartedly in the need for a safe space for young people to come together to be inspired, informed and involved. What I find unacceptable is that you feel perfectly comfortable attempting to make TIG into a space which is NOT safe or welcoming for gay and lesbian youth to also become inspired, informed and involved about whatever development issues they are involved with. A person CANNOT participate in a community without being able to bring their whole being into it...
For example, one of the reasons I am such a passionate advocate of Youth Creating Digital Opportunities (YCDO) is based on my own experiences of being in the UK in grad school (1994-1995) going through the process of coming to terms with being head over heels in love with one of my female friends. What pulled me through that time of soul searching and long conversations with my family and friends was the eixstence of a global discussion group of gay Christians. I learned through that experience how powerful access to ICTs can be for people who are marginalized within their societies for whatever reason. From that point onwards, I have dedicated my life and my career to giving people access to ICTs so they don't ever need to feel alone or disempowered again when confronting systems that they feel need to be changed.
Is my sexual orientation soemthing that I explicitly bring up in that work? No. Other than the fact that anyone who works with me for long will learn that I have a partner named Linda, that we've been together for seven years, and that I'm trying to get YCDO sorted out as quickly as possible this year since I will hopefully have a child next year and be on maternity leave for a year or so after that.
There is some irony that the more succesful I am in my work, the more young people with very different worldviews which radically contradict mine will come online to argue vehemently that I am insane and immoral. I can handle that. Because I believe that change at all levels from the global to the local will only occur through dialogue.
I guess what bothers me the most about your postings, Abongta and ecclesiastes, are a) your use of fabricated data and b) the cavalier nature with which you treat the debate as if it were a theoretical, academic exchange. It's not. It's about real people with real feelings, most of whom you will never know are gay because they have a feeling that it is not safe to tell you. So you will not hear from them.
But, you will hear from me. I'm old enough and settled enough (most days, except for days like today b/c I only got 4 hours of sleep last night, stressing out about how to raise $ to bring more young people to WSIS) to not take it personally.
Best wishes
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Hugh Switzer
Joined: Jul 29, 2002
Posts: 721 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Blabbermouth
User is
Offline
Country: Canada
Province/State: Ontario
City: Toronto
|
Re: how do people feel about gays adopting?
November 4, 2003 - 03:06 AM
|
|
Luke, I love you :P
And not because I love you, but because those posts were just... err... yum.
I wouldn't want to scare *someone* away....
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Simon Moss
Joined: May 7, 2002
Posts: 79 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Chatterbox
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 28
Country: Australia
Province/State: Victoria
City: Melbourne
|
Fact or Fiction?
November 4, 2003 - 04:34 AM
|
|
Abongta,
I agree with your statement in regards to needing an ethical basis, but I completely disagree with the reasons you gave to justify some of those morals.
If a hetero sexual couple adopt a child out of love for that child or because they need a child and can’t biologically have one, then the moral justifications of such an operation is acceptable and normal. We know for sure they would take care of the child ...
What's the moral difference between two men or women adopting, and a man/woman couple adopting? How can you say that a couple will take care of a child just by virtue of their being heterosexual?
The innocent child should not be place in a position where he/she would be forced or inspired by circumstances to adopt a particular sexual orientation in the future. Children adopted by homosexuals have a 99% chance of becoming homosexuals and worst still they stand would grow up in an immoral atmosphere back home.
As far as I'm aware, most people don't "choose" to be homosexual. And that statistic ... where did you dig that up? Seeing that almost no behaviour is that predicatble, least of all one as unknown as sexulaity, I find that remarkably difficult to accept. As for a gay famiily being immoral - how do you make that link? Just because you hold the view that homosexuality is immoral (your call, I disagree, but it's your opinion), how can you say that homosexual people are immoral? It seems to be a gross projection of linking an action to a defintion of a person. Most people do things that they or others would call immoral at some stage in their lives, but this does not make them immoral people.
Bring up a child entails ensuring a conducive atmosphere for the child to grow up as a responsible human being guarded by morals and a sane conscience but you would agree with me that homosexuals are a group of people who have lost touch with their inner beings – call it the conscience.
Here I think you are making the mistake of assuming that morals are passively passed from parents to children, with no consideration for how the process could be an active one, driven by children and yound people who seek to explore their own ethical worlds. I completely disagree that gay people have lost their consciences, rather, I would anecdotally assert that of the gay people I know, all have the highest standards of integrity and morals. For you to argue that straight people have better morals is myopic unless you beleive that by virtue of someones sexuality (which they feel they have no control over), they possess a certain innate goodness or "badness." This completely goes against the idea the people are different, and plays into the same sorts of stereotypes that portray Muslims as "evil terrorists" and Christians as "valiant liberators."
Some of the turmoils in the world today are generated by homosexuals, look they have brought discord in communities, governments, and today the church.
I think you'll find that the discord isn't because of the homosexual clergy, it's because of those who oppose them.
To close, and to answer the question, I consider the sexuality of a couple to be irrelevant in adption. I've always thought of the dilemma where an adoption agency would be considering two brothers or sisters who wished to adopt - same sex, just not sleeping togehter. And, for the live of me, I can't see why you wouldn't let them adopt if they were likely to provide a loving, caring home with a stimulating environment.
Cheers
Simon
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Lewis Best
Joined: Mar 23, 2002
Posts: 113 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Chatterbox
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 23
Country: Australia
Province/State: New South Wales
City: Hornsby
|
That would be a crime against humanity
November 4, 2003 - 04:43 AM
|
|
Originally posted by Abongta
In a nut shell, I am saying that homosexuals should never be allowed to adopt children for what ever reason. It is enough for them to be allowed to be and live their lives as they are.
Come on, thats a bit harsh isnt it? Homosexuality is genetically inherited as well, to bac up one of Mossy's points
Peace Out
Besty
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Wreth Fallot
Joined: Nov 4, 2003
Posts: 1 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Tongue-tied
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 25
Country: Canada
Province/State: Ontario
City: Brampton
|
And how
November 4, 2003 - 05:24 AM
|
|
All smiles. I agree with the lady above. This almost feels like talking behind someone's back. We should get a homesexual to jump in waist-deep into the nitty-gritty with all of us to discuss this. Meh, just a thought.
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Antoine Wood
Joined: Apr 25, 2002
Posts: 88 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Chatterbox
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 25
Country: Canada
Province/State: Ontario
City: Brampton
|
Re: how do people feel about gays adopting?
November 4, 2003 - 05:43 AM
|
|
Originally posted by luke
Jeez - now I have read a bit further and Abongta - you are so full of crap in so many places I don't know where to begin.
kids in homosexual households have a %99 chance of being homosexual? - please show me where you got that number - please.
If you can't back that number up I would like you to admit that you LIED and made it up in order to support a bigoted arguement.
It funny to have a bald faced liar lecture on morality - but that is for later.
"Homosexuality is all the way bad and that homosexuals should not be allowed under what ever condition to adopt children less they breed another alien species of humans." - Abongta
well, you know this is not the first time that bigots have tried classifying certain people as non-humans in order to justify thier prejudice. Hitler did it when he tried to explain that Jews were devolved, they were an evil alien species that needed to be destroyed. The white man did it when he needed to rationalize their enslavement of blacks - remember 'black people are more like monkeys than men'
Now you are employing the same kind of faulty reasoning when you talk about gays to justify your prejudices against them.
What is downright hilarious is to hear you try to rationalize why it is different when you do it to gays bacause they really are an alien species and when Hitler did it he was just wrong.
Abongta - you need to take a long hard look in the mirror and decide what kind of person you want to be.
(-; if you are not careful I am going to suggest that fat people shouldn't adopt because they teach the kids unhealthy eating habits - come on - as though you are above reproach - jeez.
This is unfair, you can't call him a bigot, nor ban you say that simply because he used hyperbole now he's a liar and his facts aren't valid. He has an opinon and is attempting to explain his feeling to us. Hurling insults at him isn't debating, and is also irrelevant, attack the argument not the person.
And my opinion is that a single person can raise a child just fine by themself. As has been proven by the huge amount of one parent famillies. And if that one person can raise a family by themself then what difference does it make who they are having sex with.
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Crystal_Abongta
Joined: Oct 18, 2002
Posts: 175 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Chatterbox
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 36
Country: Cameroon
|
Strange indeed!
November 4, 2003 - 06:02 AM
|
|
Well I get the points you are putting through and summarily I have this to say if it goes through;
I did in no way suggest that a person’s sexuality determines his/her moral standing or inter personal skills, and to put you wrong here, no scientific data proves that homosexuality is inherent or genetic. Those are all the micro print of an alien society, the results of falling standards and a break down of morals as well asconsciences.
Don’t tell me alcoholics are people with the right perception of life, circumstances must have pushed them into such habits for sure but that’s not enough for them to give up to the bottles. That’s how I see homosexuality; get down to the base line of a homosexual life and you would see that they are secretly and consciously or unconsciously pained by the very lifestyle they live. It would just be like a chain smoker who can’t let go his cigarettes even though he’s away of the trouble it gives him.
Don’t make a mistake, homosexuality is just one of those bad habits people pick around, it should not be me to tell you how much the environment in which we live plays a great role in shaping our attitudes, our habits and finally our person. I have talked to and counseled homosexuals, I have lived with them and I know the in-house pain they undergo.
Once again, education can either be formal or informal, if I said a greater percentage of children adopted by homosexuals would end up as homosexuals, its because these class of people have an inferiority complex which they fight by struggling to prove that their life style is as normal as it is the nature of ice to be cold and so what happens, they force it on to everybody else they can lay hands on. An adopted child growing up in such an atmosphere risks getting coaxed into that life style. Children by nature have the ability of picking up bad habits than good ones (Don’t ask me how I differentiate good and bad) It might take time and energy which they are always ready to exercise and once the child picks off, that’s the end of the story.
I never meant that heterosexual couples by virtue of their sexual orientation would emerge excellent parents if they adopted a child. They too have their own challenges but in this case I would say moderated and easier to manage because they are suffering from less (if there is any) inner guild or complexes compared to homosexuals.
If we were to bring an element of religion into the scene as you are trying to do, then I would tell you for the cross section of denominations and religions I know, none of them favors homosexuality. People might perceive Muslims as terrorist or Christians as vicious avengers but then those are all misinterpretations of the truth or I would say they get confused between facts and opinions. It is orthodox that religion advocates heterosexuality and nothing else.
It is really funny to find a person telling me homosexuality is genetically inherent, what about bisexuality if I may ask? I am just afraid that some of the people are fast becoming a play thing to the forces of social dynamics. Change is really the most stable constant to which we all accept but then it’s important to underline that the direction of the change is worth considering. Homosexuality is just another rung on the ladder of self denigration self pity and self destruction. You can’t force me to belief that homosexuals consider themselves sane human beings. It’s hard to imagine but the world should accept them all the same for it took negative and positive to give us the energy the world is turning on today.
Telerate my language please
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Hugh Switzer
Joined: Jul 29, 2002
Posts: 721 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Blabbermouth
User is
Offline
Country: Canada
Province/State: Ontario
City: Toronto
|
Re: how do people feel about gays adopting?
November 4, 2003 - 06:35 AM
|
|
Originally posted by Antoine
This is unfair, you can't call him a bigot, nor ban you say that simply because he used hyperbole now he's a liar and his facts aren't valid.
Actually, he said that homosexuals don't have the right to live. Then he made up numbers that aren't true just to try and illustrate a point that is not real.
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Luke Lieberman
Joined: Feb 13, 2003
Posts: 3007 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Blabbermouth
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 33
Country: United States
Province/State: California
|
Re: how do people feel about gays adopting?
November 4, 2003 - 07:13 AM
|
|
Sorry Antoine - I know your hosility is just carry over from the capital punishment debate - you are not considering the issue - just combating me because of previous disagreements.
If this kid is going to hurl countless insults at gay people then he is going to have to take as much as he dishes out.
He was actually calling gays sub-human and stating that he would incinerate them if he could - so if I catch him lying about his facts then I will call him on it. And if he calls gays sub-human - then I will call him a bigot because that is what he is exhibiting.
I call 'em like I see 'em
Why don't you go back and read his statements before jumping in and taking sides Antoine.
"This is unfair, you can't call him a bigot, nor ban you say that simply because he used hyperbole now he's a liar and his facts aren't valid." - Antoine
Uh and yeah - if he is quoting statistics that are pure fabrications then I would say that they are invalid.
For all future reference Antoine - Valid facts come from studies and research - you can't just make them up to suport your arguements. Make-beleive statistics are not VALID.
I can't beleive I have to explain this to you.
You have me worried - are you making up your nubers and calling them facts during the course of a debate?
Rest assured if you do I will call you on them.
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Antoine Wood
Joined: Apr 25, 2002
Posts: 88 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Chatterbox
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 25
Country: Canada
Province/State: Ontario
City: Brampton
|
Re: how do people feel about gays adopting?
November 4, 2003 - 07:15 AM
|
|
He said no such thing, he said that he couldn't kill them for being homosexual, which can very clearly be taken as they do have the right to exist. Just because he can't do it doesn't mean he want to do or feel as if he has the right to do it. He never says he has the right or the want. Consider the phrase and consider modern day english and realize that you're miss quoting him. It would be much more beneficiary to the conversation if you were to write a post saying that you're not sure what he meant but in your opinon homosexual's deserve to live. And then he would probably respond tommorow, of course they do, their human beings, I said as much in my post.
As for the numbers, they are obviously made up, he didn't even attempt to push them off as real numbers 99%, ya he really meant to decieve you with those numbers. It was clearly an oppinon, that he believed that people who grow up in a homosexual environment may become homosexual and those who grow up in a hetrosexual environment will have a greater chance to become hetro. There may be some stock in that arguement, the real question is do I care even if those "numbers" are true.
The basic point is that the argument was not being argued, instead of fighting the ideas, you are trying to discredit the person. You believe in something I find repulsive, therefore I will prove your word not to be trusted.
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Luke Lieberman
Joined: Feb 13, 2003
Posts: 3007 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Blabbermouth
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 33
Country: United States
Province/State: California
|
Re: how do people feel about gays adopting?
November 4, 2003 - 07:31 AM
|
|
"Homosexuality to me is all the ways bad and filthy but then I can’t kill or incinerate somebody who chooses to be a homosexual." - Abongta
Your right Tony - there is nothing about that statement which suggests overt hostility towards gay people - jeez.
Why don't you look at the statement again - he didn't say that we shouldn't kill them - he said we can't.
Can't as in not possible - as in not capable. The statement intimates that he might want to do this - but recognises it as unrealistic.
Why don't you pick up a dictionary - I write for a living - I know how words work.
and FYI I did ask him to clarify - go back and read the post where I origonally quoted him.
And yeah I am fighting ideas - but they are his ideas. What exactly is the difference if I call his ideas bigoted or just call him bigoted?
Actually it seems to me that yuo have turned this debate away from ideas and onto semantical arguements and arguements about the form of the arguement.
Stick to the issues - ok.
And if he wants to say that Gay households lead to gay children - then he can just say that - when he tries to throw in a statistic then it should be accurate or it shouldn't be there at all.
And it is untruthful to attatch a false statistic to a statement.
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
|
Display posts from:
|
Home
Community
