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Len Rosen
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
September 2, 2009 - 03:34 PM
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Dear Siddiq, I cannot help myself but I just had to say something about your 3 posed questions.
The 7 day week goes back a long way in our history as a species. There is speculation that we have 7 days to correspond with the 7 visible wandering celestial objects that our ancestors could see in the night sky. Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. Interestingly enough in Western society, many of the days derive their names from these celestial objects. Sunday, Monday, the French Mercredi and Mardi and the English Saturday just to name a few.
As for numbers in arithmetic progression. We are born and we age. There is a certain logic to begin at 1 and go forward. The challenge for enumeration is infinity is a non-number because it is n(plus). But the concept of zero, now that is interesting whereas your infinity argument seems rather arcane.
As for why all alphabets begin with an "a" sound having something to do with evolution.....well that's not very accurate as a "scientific" statement. How do you reconcile non-alphabetic languages? Chinese uses pictographs. Hieroglyphics from both Egypt and Mayan civilization are also pictographic although the Egyptian actually mixed both pictographs and letter characters. The fact that most Western alphabets begin with an "a" sound is a product of syncretism, the borrowing of a good idea from one culture to another, just like trading goods and for that matter myths, fables and gods. So the Phoenician "a" became the Hebraic and Aramaic "a" which also became the Greek "a," which became the Arabic and Cyrillic "a", and the Latin and Romance languages "a."
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Siddiq
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
September 3, 2009 - 02:26 AM
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Thank you Len, for your attempt.
What do the appearance of the stars or planets have to do with the lives of our ancestors? Does Sun not appear on other days than Sunday? Similarly the other planets or satellites. So, this is not the reason. Could they locate only 7? Are you sure?
Riddle-1 remains unsolved.
Natural numbers indicate simply not only the counting units they also represent the very nature of this Universe. Thanks for atleast acknowledging that we take birth ( start as a single cell called Zygote in mother's womb), age and then die. So, we had a beginning. Right? Then why not the Universe of which we are a part? My question is if the Universe is infinite and existing without time, how come the age of the earth, sun, etc are calculated and from what reference? Please clarify.
Pictographs were also pronounced. Were n't they? So, what's the starting sound? As far as the Chinese, Egyptian and the Mayan Civilizations are concerned, they were pagans worshipping the esoteric in the nature. Should I take my lesson from such people?
Hope Len, you try again.. Riddles are not solved. On the day you solve it and I would accept whatever yoy say about Creation or Evolution. Deal?
This post was edited on: 2009-09-03 at 05:29 AM by: siddiq92
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prieten47
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
September 3, 2009 - 03:32 AM
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I liked Len Rosen's answers. As a matter of fact, "Thursday" comes from "Thor's Day" so we are using another God's name for that day.
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Siddiq
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
September 3, 2009 - 04:14 AM
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Welcome back, prieten!
Thor may be a created god of Romans or Greeks but not the GOD who created the Universe.
Everyone knows that a baby can have only one biological father. If so, what about the Universe? How could more than one God exist? Offcourse, people successfully answering my riddle-2 would tell this too!
Give it a try, prieten! All the best!
This post was edited on: 2009-09-03 at 05:33 AM by: siddiq92
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Len Rosen
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
September 3, 2009 - 07:27 AM
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Hi Siddiq,
I seriously question your knowledge of most of what you are talking about.It would be good for you to know, for example, that Thor is a Norse god.
As for our ancestors on this planet, association of days, months and years with celestial objects is as plain as the nose on your face. A year approximates the annual swing of our Earth around the Sun. Our months are approximations of the the lunar cycle of phases. One can even speculate that the Moon has four phases, New, Waxing, Full and Waning. Hence dividing a month into 4 weeks makes sense. The Muslim and Jewish year are lunar years that equate a year with 12 lunar cycles. That's why they do not sequence with the solar year.
There are societies that equate numbers with magical powers. In ancient Babylon the number 6 was given great weight. Multiples of 6 gave us the 360 degree circle. There are cultures that equate the number 7 with mystery. But numerology is like reading a horoscope. It is based on mythology, belief systems that even modern religious equate with nonsense. So exactly what is your point?
The Sun and our Solar System are less than half the age of the known Universe. Currently we can see back using the Hubble Space Telescope, to a time over 13 billion years ago, before even our local space had formed into what we see today. Of course you will question that because you have a preconceived notion that this just cannot be.
Finally, let's talk about life as a product of this Universe and its physical laws. In this month's Discover there is an article about multiverses. I don't sense that you have read anything about this recently new field of cosmology. The laws of physics in our Universe and the elements from which it is derived have led to life. Our Universe may have been born from another Universe. The Big Bang may very well be an event caused by two universes colliding. This is compelling and interesting science. Mathematicians and theoretical physicists, let alone cosmologists are intensely involved in modeling and hypothesizing on these subjects. As a finite being, in a Universe that has a beginning, but no discernible end, it is very difficult to grasp the concept of infinity. As much as I study science and accept the concept even I cannot imagine it. That's the limit of being a species that is born, ages and dies. We are finite and our planet has a finite existence.
So let's stop this silly discussion over propositions that you have made that prove a god or gods exist. They prove absolutely nothing.
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Marissa Harrington
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
September 3, 2009 - 01:04 PM
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lenrosen4 wrote:
Hmmm. There always has to have been an ultimate creator? ... I know for most of us it is hard to envision infinite existence or infinite time. After all isn't there a spatial and temporal measure for such terms? ... I am convince that we humans are not the penultimate expression of evolution, that we are not made in anyone's image, nor do we hold dominion over all of the animals and plants as is stated in Genesis ... There is no god or gods out there.
The belief that there is no God is a logical conclusion, considering that most people who claim to know God do not.
Karen Armstrong's book, The Battle for God, speaks to the fact that Muslims, Jews and Christians are all fighting "holy wars" claiming that their religion is God's true religion. And Karen provides insights that are valuable.
Joseph J. Adamson provides even more insight in that regard. His book, and his web site, titled What IS the World Coming To? explains exactly what the problem is, and suggests how it will be resolved.
Adamson explains that God is actually not a person in whose image we are made. We are made in God's image, as children of Light. He says God is the Divine Light-Energy-Source of our existence, the Universal Consciousness, and the primordial vibration or "Word" that is made flesh in all of us.
So, it's not that there is no God. It's that precious few actually know what God is.
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Siddiq
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
September 4, 2009 - 12:13 AM
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Thanks Len for enlightening that Norse invented Thor not Greco-romans. Its good being able to learn from elders. Thank You.
Agreed with earth's swing around sun - a year, similarly, moon's around earth -a month. Moon's phases can be best described as Waxing and waning only. That still makes the mystery darker. Significance of seven in a week?
I believe numbers are tools of understanding the Nature not objects of worship. The total angle in a circle is best described as Pi radians. Thats what all calculators & computers use in computation. Number seven represents a fact not a myth. Try exploring it.
I agree that one can look back in time by observing the space - a sheer wonder of optical application. I don't believe in a static universe.
Now that you know the contents of a human and the physical laws, he is subjected to. Create a man then. A challenge to all atheistic scientists!
As for Big Bang, if two universes (2 * 1) gave birth to our Universe, then numbers in our Universe should begin with 2. Numbers simply ape the nature of which they are a part. Same is the case with multiverses. Beginning with one would lose meaning.
As far as my not reading the latest issue of Discover is concerned, that does not have to increase or decrease one's common sense.
Finite space and finite time give a death blow to infinity - a mathematical illusion.
This debate should not be called a silly discussion, Sir, as Plato, Socrates, Pythagoras, Confuscius, Newton, Einstein, Hawking, Paul Davies all have participated in it albeit scientifically. Lets play our parts to our abilities.
Finally, patience is the manifestation of one's self belief. Don't lose it,Len.
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James An
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
September 4, 2009 - 03:49 AM
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I thought I'd take a peek at the lively discussion here.
Briefly, I'd like to refute the comment that infinity is "a mathematical illusion", as Siddiq put it. Infinities are quite real in complex analysis (no pun intended!), in the form of mathematical singularities. Complex analysis includes methods to identify singularities, categorize them, and make conclusions about them and the space, in which they're embedded.
Complex analysis (and infinities) is used to solve many engineering problems, like aerodynamics, power systems, and transformations, which is used in virtually anything deals with space and surfaces (e.g. CAD design, computer graphics and animation, industrial automation). These are very real and so is the analysis of infinities vis-à-vis complex analysis and topology and their related fields and technologies.
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James An
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
September 4, 2009 - 03:51 AM
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I'd like to revisit Siddiq's three questions.
I actually find it pointedly arrogant, and uneducated of Siddiq to lump such cultures as distinct as Egypt, China, and Maya as simply "pagans worshipping the esoteric in the nature" and that, because of such a generalization, he see no worth in learning "from such people". In true rationality, knowledge is not evaluated against the esotericity of the prevailing religion related to the knowledge.
Regardless of your personal views on different cultures, the fact remains that:
- a week was not always 7 days long; and
- the letter "A" is not always the first alphabet in a language.
A quick search over Wikipedia will reveal a multitude of cultures that did not have 7-day weeks [1]. Wiki says "The earliest evidence of continuous use of a seven-day week appears with the Jews during the Babylonian Captivity in 586 BCE" [2] and is now an international standard. Prior to the standardization, weeks ranged from 4 (Nigerian) to 20 (Aztec and Mayan) days. For example, Chinese calendars that used 10-day weeks can be traced even further than the earliest known records of the 7-day week, the Shang Dynasty (1200-1045 BCE) [2]. Can I argue that 10-day weeks are more fundamental as they could have been used first?
Another quick Wiki search reveals that the letter "A" can be trace back to the ox head hieroglyph of the Egyptian [3]. The origins of "A" belong to these so-called pagans who you claim have no lessons for you but who's language structure you have already inherited. It doesn't matter whether or not you have respect for languages that don't use alphabets such as Chinese. The fact remains that they are valid languages (arguably more widely used today than alphabetized languages, simply because there are so many Chinese people) and they don't have an "A".
Yes, hieroglyphs are pronounced, but languages are not required to have "starting" sounds as that simply not relevant when studying languages. In standardizing all languages, the International Phnetic Alphabet was established as a universal alphabet for all sounds pronounced in all languages. The alphabet table is actually multi-dimensional and grouped in categories as an unordered alphabet. I'd suggested Siddiq research the field of linguistics to better understand the structure of language.
I'm unsure how natural numbers pertains to anything about God or the Universe. I'm not sure I understand why natural numbers "also represent the very nature of this Universe". The Peano axioms define natural numbers [4]. Although Peano originally used 1 as the "first" natural number, the natural number set was redefined to include 0 as it's "first" number [5], in the 19th century under the modern number theory. So 1 is no longer the "first" number in the natural set. Furthermore, it simply doesn't matter.
Although natural numbers are not infinite in magnitude, there are branches of math that deal with infinities and so-called transfinite numbers [6]. In these systems, all numbers are larger than finite numbers (and hence infinite), but are not "absolutely infinite", meaning that you can compare the magnitude of these transfinite numbers. The number system is 2-dimensional and countable, but the details become exceedingly complicated and -- I think -- irrelevant to the current discussion. My point is simply that infinite numbers do exist and are used.
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[1] Wikipedia. Week. Retrieved 2009-09-04. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Week
[2] Senn, Frank C. (1997). Christian Liturgy: Catholic and Evangelical. Fortress Press. ISBN 0800627261, 9780800627263. http://books.google.com/books?id=g5c7C2rQzU0C.
[3] Wikipedia. A. Retrieved 2009-09-04. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A
[4] Wikipedia. Peano axioms. Retrieved 2009-09-04. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peano_axioms
[5] Wikipedia. Natural number. Retrieved 2009-09-04. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_number
[6] Wikipedia. Transfinite number. Retrieved 2009-09-04. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfinite_number
This post was edited on: 2009-09-04 at 07:47 PM by: JamesAn
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James An
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
September 4, 2009 - 03:53 AM
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Many numbers are linked to meaning, but that doesn't mean the numbers, themselves, have an intrinsic meaning. I questions your ability, Siddiq, to reason with logic, as many of your arguments are in the form: everyone knows A, therefore B, with no connection between A and B.
"Everyone knows that a baby can have only one biological father. If so, what about the Universe?"
Everyone also knows that asexual bacteria can only have one parents. Everyone also knows a baby can have only two biological parents. Everyone also should know that lithium has 3 protons. That exactly 4 planets orbit our Sun within the asteroid belt. That we have 5 fingers on each hand. That ants have 6 legs. That the common ladybug has exactly 7 spots. That there are 8 allotropes of carbon. That there are 9 innings in a non-tied game of baseball. That we have 10 toes. In fact, Wikipedia has almost 400 articles just on specific numbers and meanings they have.
I don't suppose that because the speed of light is 299,792,458 metres per second that it means there exists 299,792,458 universes? Or perhaps because Euler's number is 2.71828 18284 59045 23536, that there are that many universes? If numbers are truly that important, Euler's number is arguably the most important number (even more important than Pi!) as it appears in perhaps the widest context in nature [7]. Virtually everywhere in nature, this number appears, whether it's the fractal pattern of a leaf, the self-similarity you observe along a coastline, or its spontaneous appearance in probability and exponential growth (think population dynamics).
Euler's identity will probably blow your mind! It combines the 5 arguably "most" fundamental constants in an equation: e, i, pi, 1, and 0.
e^(i * pi) + 1 = 0
[8]
Despite it's supposed beauty, what does the identity reveal to us? Nothing. It's simply beautiful. And it's proven. But it has no meaning. Nothing about how many universes there are, or whether God exists, or what I should eat today. Nothing.
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Evolution has happened and continues to happen. How else does the H1N1 flu virus jump across species if it is unable to evolve? Why would selective breeding and plant hybridization matter in the agribusiness if plants could not evolved based on the inheritance of parent traits and the introduction of random mutations? Why is it that we have never found chickens in prehistoric fossil records if chicken were not supposed to have evolved after that time period? Why is the fossil record so consistent with a theory of changes that lead to speciation and biodiversity as put forward by evolution?
What is "the beginning sound of early humans"? And why do you assume that sound is the sole method of communication?
If you peruse the discourse of species, you'll find that there's now considerably evidence that certain animals do have traits previously assumed to be uniquely human. First, it was the spirit, then tool using, then tool making, then language, then altruism. Each barrier placed between humans and nonhuman animals has thus far been disproven as a variety of animals have been observed with such traits. As people arguing against your points, Siddiq, seem to be continually introducing new knowledge to you, perhaps you should take some responsibility in educating yourself in the variety of concepts and historical topics on hand (like number theory, evolution, and calendrical systems), as your riddles are not so much mysteries as they are reflections of your misunderstanding of these topics.
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[7] Wikipedia. E (mathematical constant). Retrieved 2009-09-04. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_%28mathematical_constant%29
[8] Wikipedia. Euler's identity. Retrieved 2009-09-04. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s_identity
This post was edited on: 2009-09-04 at 07:48 PM by: JamesAn
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Marissa Harrington
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
September 4, 2009 - 05:48 PM
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I quote an excerpt from a relevant article by Joseph J. Adamson titled Evolution vs "Creationism" :
The “six day creation” story in Genesis is an allegorical explanation of how the world was created. It was meant to illustrate that God is the Creator, and the rest of it was meant to demonstrate how man disobeys God when he indulges in judgmental egotism and thinks he is a wise judge of what is good and evil — when he ignores God and tries to play god.
Of course, there are many historical aspects to the book of Genesis as well. But I’m talking about the creation story, and in that respect it is much like the creation stories of many other religions and cultures, containing great wisdom and great advice, and yet portraying magical events that are the stuff of myth, fable, and fantasy. They were not meant to be taken literally, but to give us a concept and an idea of divine power and intent.
Unfortunately, the American “Christian Right” insists on reviving the old Scopes Trial argument for “biblical creationism” against the scientific theory of evolution. Apparently they think that if they thump their Bible long enough and hard enough, their “godless”opponents will be vanquished and “God’s Word” will prevail. But they are wrong about “Creationism” and Evolution, and they are wrong about God and the Word of God.
God is the very real Divine Holy One, the unseen but omnipresent Universal Intelligence and Supreme Consciousness. However, God is not a man, nor a son of man, and there was not an “Intelligent Design” (as right-wing evangelical Christians now claim in their revised argument). And the “Word” that was in the beginning, which is with God and is God, is made flesh in you, and in all of us. But it is not an actual word that you can speak. It is the primordial vibration, the very essence of God the Divine Light-Energy-Source of our existence. It is what gives consciousness and vibratory life to every thing, from the smallest nano-particles and parts of the smallest atoms, to atomic elements, all the way to the planets, the galaxy, the universe, and the cosmos. From the most minuscule microcosm to the largest macrocosm, its essence is Divine Light Energy and Consciousness.
The trouble is, power-hungry right-wing evangelical Christians do not know that the true Word of God is not a word written by men, nor a word that can be spoken, but that which is made manifest in all life and form. And life and form was not planned. It evolved, naturally, and according to what worked as opposed to what didn’t work. There was great universal intelligence and consciousness involved in the process, and there still is and always will be. But it is not a dictator, not the designer or “the decider,” and not the judge. The Spirit of truth, the Ancient One who is with God in heaven, is the judge and guide, and the mortal son of man is the authorized, main messenger for the Spirit of truth.
Therefore, the argument of the Christian Right is wrong. And it does tremendous harm to religion because they focus on man-made doctrines and dogma, which forces a biblical allegory to compete with common sense and be compared to science. That just makes no sense and it is entirely inappropriate, not only because in America there should be a wall of separation between church and state, but because real biblical truths are actually compatible with science, and the allegorical creation story was never meant to be taken literally.
This post was edited on: 2009-09-04 at 07:07 PM by: abbarighton
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
September 4, 2009 - 11:05 PM
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Hi James! Thanks for your comments.
Mathematical illusion of infinity being used in Complex analyses & Engineering applications such as CAD and Industrial automation is akin to optical illusion being used in making fool-proof holograms. But illusion remains an illusion, and never becomes a reality.
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
September 5, 2009 - 12:44 AM
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Thanks, James, for reminding me of Eulers equation (or identity).
Euler's identity is learnt by every engineering student. Applications are in Complex analyses and related fields. and you know the application of complex nos. in Signal transmission, etc.
The implication of Euler's equation is clear. Every thing, in this Universe, is related and you go on unravelling the mysteries one after another and link each other. I may sound philosophical, but its necessary. That I conclude from the geometrical representation of Eulers equation.
If numbers do not have any meaning, how come we apply them in our daily life?
Regarding your argument about the various values of numbers in the no. of parents a child can have, no. of planets in the asteroid belt around the sun, no. of spots on a ladybug, etc., don't you see that these have amazingly distinct and finte arrangements in mass, space and off-course, finite existence. Does that not speak summarily about the finiteness of Nature itself? Rationality is urged, James, not passionate outburst.
Speed of light also tells you the maximum speed that an entity can attain in our Universe not the possibility of nos. of Universes.
Regarding the importance of Euler's no. over my favorite Pi, I prefer to disagree. Pi symbolises the curvature of space and the symmetry inherent in it, as also the finiteness. Don't ask me for the proof. I am working on it. It will take some considerable (offcourse finite time).
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
September 5, 2009 - 12:55 AM
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I appreciate Marissa's timely exerpt. Hope the atheists refer it.
Please don't write off all biblical stories. Part of it correctly reflect the true facts albeit allegorically. People have evolved their understanding of nature over time and accordingly were they instructed to follow certain etiquettes and encouraged to take up study of nature seriously. But few heeded and even fewer succeeded in it.
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
September 5, 2009 - 01:09 AM
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James! Adapatation to the environment is often confused with evolution. That's all I wish to tell you regarding HINI flu virus. Certain genes are activated in a particluar environment and others do not. Then, the question should also point to, what changed in the environment? Can you tell me whether the scientists have deciphered all genetic information of the known species? I am afraid the answer is no.
As regarding, genetically engineered agri-commercial activities, selective breeding of species, I prefer to remind the allegorical reference in the Bible, that God made man in His image. Knowledge and its application, probably, was to be inferenced from that verse of Bible.
Reply on linguistics follows, James. Till then, have patience.
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