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Len Rosen
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 26, 2009 - 02:03 PM
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No I cannot disprove that God exists if I throw out evidence-based proofs. Just as I cannot disprove that ghosts exist, or fairies, or gnomes when I throw out evidence-based proofs.
I cannot see what is on the other side of a black hole. Should I then assume that the scriptural god or gods reside there?
As this discussion has advanced we have pretty much abandoned intelligent design as being a poorly conceived alternative to science-tested evolution. Mendel gave us proof of the way evolution works through the manipulation of genes. He did it selectively. Nature and time also do it selectively.
What is the purpose of a god or gods if they are not purposeful in our existence? We are destroying our planet. We destroy our environment. We destroy other life. We destroy each other. No god or gods seem to care or want to get involved, at least not since Mt. Sinai, Jericho, the Iliad and the Second Coming.
We pursue knowledge to gain insight about ourselves and the universe around us. If knowledge were a manifestation of intelligent design, how come so much of our knowledge lead to malevolent behaviour. Yes, I understand that some religions believe that free will guides us and that no god or gods get in the way of free will.
Finally, we are not the only sentient beings on this planet. There are a lot of intelligent animals. There are a lot of tool-building animals. We are the only technology species. Technology is our intelligent design and I think the jury is out on whether technology will prove to be our saviour or our death knell as a species.
As for Genesis or any other scriptural guide book that describes the beginning of creation, one can drive a Mack truck through the holes in these colloquial turns of phrase. The god of the Quran and the Bible, is an active god. He is constantly interfering, interceding, demanding and smiting. He is to be feared and obeyed. Where did that god suddenly go? Out to lunch? On vacation?
It is nice to think that there is an intercessor who can make things right. But it represents wishful thinking, not reasoned argument. It represents our past, not our present and future.
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prieten47
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 26, 2009 - 08:14 PM
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sidsayed wrote:
prieten47 Last, it is a favorite argument of the religious to say "you can't prove God doesn't exist." As I said when this argument was brought up earlier in the thread, "That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence too."
Oh, of course you cannot disprove the existence of god, because as far as I read if everything is supposed to be evidence based, then if you can't prove
it, you can't disprove it either unless you have a certain amount of proof. So its in a state of ambiguity. Until you can conclusively disprove it, you can't deny the existence of god. This kind of ambiguity applies not just to the question of the existence of god, but to very many scientific theories.I carefully used the word "dismiss" in the sense of:
a. To stop considering; rid one's mind of; dispel: "dismissed all thoughts of running for office."
b. To refuse to accept or recognize; reject: "dismissed the claim as highly improbable."
There are countless propositions, like the idea that there are purple parrots on Mars, that can't be conclusively disproven(have you looked under every stone on Mars?), but these propositions are so fanciful that, barring any evidence in their favor, we shouldn't waste our time thinking about them. They can be "dismissed."
Religious stories about creation are obviously in this category and can be dismissed.
While it is true some scientific theories may have ambiguities awaiting confirmation or disproof, most are testable and "disprovable." God has avoided every test so far and therefore can't be disproved. Evolution could be disproven in a second if, say modern rabbit bones were found in the wrong geologic layer. With a few exceptions later revealed as frauds, such fossil findings have never occurred.
James An, I find your historical readings very interesting. I think I have already said that religion was "the only game in town" for many centuries, so it is not surprising that many scientific findings during this period were discovered by religious people who may have been motivated by their religious background. But to say science is a mixture of observation and cultural influences is strange. Cultural influences have encouraged and impeded the march of science, but I still can't believe that some scientist, for instance, said, "Let's see. My belief in God suggests that a Big Bang must have occurred so I must collect observations to support it." Far more likely is some astronomer noticed the universe was expanding at a nticeable rate and deduced that there must be some central origin for all expanding matter. I think the religionists then immediately jumped on the Big Bang "coattails."
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Deepak
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 27, 2009 - 03:26 AM
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It takes more faith to believe tat a monkey somehow lost itz tail and began to walk on 2 legs and then decided to wear a dress than to believe that God created us with a purpose...
I dont think even a trained monkey would do it... 
98 out of the top 100 scientific brains in our century are those who believe the Genesis story is true,  ...there is only 1 athesist among the remaing 2.. could u believe it that Sir Issac Newton is said to be a man of prayer... ummmm... brilliant minds seeking help from a mind more brillant than theirs in prayer...
not only that, there are those who have claimed that they found the idea for their inventions in a vision or dream from God... oh! hard to believe?
my simple brain and common sense telle me "If there is a building, then there must be an architect"... If there is creation, then there must be a creator..
how can I be so sure of a creator, well simply because I had an encounter with Him a few years back that changed my life forever...
why dont we try an experiment? get on ur knees and say "God who created all things, if you are real, then reveal yourself to me and I will follow you." Mean it with your heart and ur answer will come to u... u ask what if it does not, well, u will not know till u try it...  all d best... luv u all...
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Len Rosen
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 27, 2009 - 07:41 AM
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I'm glad you found faith Deepak. But monkeys never lost their tails. Hominids evolved from a common ancestor with monkeys and we still have a tail. It's just so short that it doesn't stick out. It's called the coccyx or tail bone. Time is the friend of evolution. Random genetic mutation interacts with the environment to selectively alter species. It's quite a stretch for me to see an intelligent designer starting the whole creation thing and then bowing out. Because the evidence surely points to god or gods who are indifferent to what is going on on this planet, let alone the countless millions of other planets circling the millions of stars just in our galaxy.
Faith fulfills a need in our species. It answers questions for which we have no answers. It provides a salve when we are fearful, ill, hungry and in pain. It's a very natural part of being human. But it is not based on a god or gods. It is based on our hierarchical social nature as a species. We are a social animal, like colonies of ants, hives of bees, troops of monkeys, herds of elephants, packs of wolves, and pods of whales. All of these creatures have alpha leaders and levels of hierarchy. Our species ultimate alpha answers the questions our alphas on earth cannot. What happens after we die? Why do we die? Why do we kill? Why am I afraid of the dark? So I am glad that you have found faith and I am sure it answers all your questions. It certainly doesn't answer mine.
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siddiqua
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 28, 2009 - 01:28 AM
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Many species in the animal kingdom have evolved similar traits. So if you look at the cat family for example, every genus has common traits - like the instinct to hunt even if it is a domesticated or cross bred species. But humans, though we share evolutionary similarities to chimpanzees, we're still very very different. When every family in the animal kingdom can possess close degrees of similarity and patterns of intelligence, why is it that only humans evolved differently. We're tool builders too, but our advancement is far greater compared to our compatriots the chimps. You say we're social animals, basing our lives on hierarchy. But only humans are able to break free from any social or societal hierarchies. A drone can only be a drone. But a slave can be a king. So how in the world could evolution have chosen such a high degree of intelligence among species of only one family, something that is not seen among other families in the animal kingdom. If we are as intelligent, so should have been chimps. They should have had at least a tad lesser if not an equal degree of intelligence. Even if all humans die out, there still isn't any species that would or could dominate all life on earth. Why haven't we so far seen a similar evolution of thinking species in these millions of years? There are highly intelligent and organized species on this planet I won't deny, but none can holdthemselves against humans which is the sad truth. Even something like a conscience or our ability to decide between what is wrong or right morally is something that is inconceivable by evolution. If that was the case, I think there should have been animal courts and punishment too. Why have other species who share similarities to humans not tried to domesticate or subjugate other animals ?
This is not a question of god's ethics as to why he doesn't save our planet or interfere in our destruction of other life. For those who believe in a creator, humans, the earth and all animals have an appointed goal where we will be judged on the actions that we have done on earth. So the question of a creator bowing out after the origin of things as we know it does not arise. There's a quote from einstein that god does not play dice with the universe. It is quite possible that what we perceive as random mutations in evolution are infact a very organized sequence of things.
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siddiqua
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 28, 2009 - 01:29 AM
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If truly we weren't created by a creator, then it is impossible that the morality we surround ourselves with should even exist because all morality orignated from the creator. As you yourself mentioned, there is a god that smites etc for any wrong doing. As I said before, if humans could have a sense of justice so should have had the dolphins and the bees. But they don't. Why don't they? Its so clear to me that all of evolution was designed by a creator.
If we really were just the products of evolution as you so technically define it, then I don't think any of you who do not believe in the existence of god should even act with integrity, should not submit themselves to laws of the land etc.
Integrity or justice does not exist in the animal kingdom. Protective instincts, yes. Affection, yes. But behaviour like honesty or charity, no. So if the world's populations are starving why should anyone of us bother. It is survival of the fittest in this world. After all random or even specific mutations during the course of evolution could never have determined the existence of something called as ethical behaviour in humans. There is learned behaviour, acquired behavioural patterns through the years, but morals ?
If there is the possibility of existence of life in outer space, as a few years ago there were found to be something similar to traces of water on mars and hence possiblity of life forms, then how is the idea of a god an impossible one. Don't we ourselves control to a very large extent elements in nature, something that other species do not, and cannot. We try and vaccinate ourselves and our children from disease, erect barriers to prevent the sea from gushing in, .. So how is it an impossible idea that someone more powerful than us could be orchestrating our lives.
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siddiqua
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 28, 2009 - 01:32 AM
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lenrosen4 wrote:
Faith fulfills a need in our species.
Why is it that so far there has been no evidence of any intelligent species, or infact any species on earth exhibiting this so called "need" ?
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Len Rosen
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 28, 2009 - 08:15 AM
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Dear Sid,
The human species has one advantage over other sentient species. We are advanced tool builders. The dexterity of our hands, the stereoscopic vision we enjoy, all evolved from our tree-climbing ancestors, has given us the means to develop a highly technical society. That's why we are a dominant species in terms of our ability to alter the environment. That's not god or gods' given. That's the luck of the evolutionary draw mixed in with time, climate influences and the good fortune that no asteroids or other catastrophic events have occurred during our short period of speciation on this planet.
It is a ridiculous argument to suggest that animals only are instinctive in their behaviours. Dogs, elephants, gorillas, chimpanzees, and even marine mammals like dolphins exhibit compassion, understanding, comprehension, intuitiveness and an ability to learn way beyond what we believe is hard wired. That's why an elephant can stand vigil outside a veterinarian hospital while a dog it has befriended is hospitalized. Or why a dolphin can come to the assistance of a child thrown overboard and push it back to the surface. Or why a gorilla can rear a kitten out of a curiosity and compassion that we usually reserve for our own species. We are not unique in this regard but we tend to be blind about our special position based on our own alpha characteristics as a species.
God or gods have nothing to do with us as a species, or with any other species of life. Humanity created god and gods to answer what humanity had no answers for. We have, through scientific discovery, learned the answers to some of those puzzling questions. We still have to learn more. So far as we peel back the layers of our lack of knowledge, no god or gods have peeked out and said, "Here I am. I'm the answer. Don't ask anymore!"
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James An
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 28, 2009 - 07:43 PM
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@Len, re: the recent issue of Discover magazine
I've always felt uncomfortable about the argument that the world we live in exists for our pleasure/perception/experience/etc. It reminds me of the "If a tree falls in a forest" riddle that questions the possibility of unperceived existence. If something is not perceived, can it exist? These anthropic principle arguments seem to hand-wave their way to the belief that we are somehow imbued with the quality of bringing about the existence of the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle
I think most of science makes a fundamental assumption that the observation does not affect the outcome, or its affect can be bounded, in the case of quantum mechanical (i.e. incredibly small) observations.
In Hawking's "A Brief History of Time", he seems to argue that singularities don't really exist -- that what we perceive as singularities in 3D aren't really singularities in a 4D spacetime perspective. A bit mind-boggling. I don't know how far that hypothesis went, since I can't find it mentioned anywhere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_singularity
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@siddiqua, re: God and the mitochondria comparison
I think comparing the existence of God with the origin of the mitochondria is inappropriate. The endosymbiotic theory that discusses the origins of mitochondria and plastids has supporting evidence suggesting a strong degree of similarity between these organelles and prokaryotic bacteria. Certainly, there are gaps but this is quite different from talking about God.
The fact that an idea can neither be proven or disproven does not mean it has any value. Russell's teapot and the flying spaghetti monster are two popular concepts that refute the idea that it is the responsibility of the skeptic to disprove religious claims. Instead, the burden of proof should be on the one who believes to prove their claim.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
Both concepts describe unprovable phenomenon by definition: a flying teapot in space too small enough to be observed, and a supernatural creator that closely resembles spaghetti and meatballs. Neither can be disproven, but it would be ridiculous to expect that a skeptic of either an extraterrestrial teapot or a spaghetti monster should have to waste their time disproving such nonsense.
The fact that something has not been disproven neither grants it equal consideration nor value.
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@siddiqua, re: does God have to exist in order for humans to have a sense of morality?
We are - in fact - finding "moral" behaviour among other animals. Especially among a number of primate species, there exists a definite sense of social order, including honesty, charity, and compassion. The June 2009 edition of the Scientific American Mind titled "Your Sexual Brain", discusses exactly this, in the context of sexual behaviour, particularly with bonobos.
The cold, hard, and social interpretation of "survival of the fittest" is not scientifically accurate, although it remains stubbornly embedded in the public mindset.
Evolutionary psychology is the field of study that attempts to investigate the evolutionary origins of our psychological traits, including things like reciprocal altruism (i.e. charity), even among so-called "lesser" or "lower" animals:
A well known example of reciprocal altruism is blood-sharing by female vampire bats. Bats feed regurgitated blood to those who have not collected blood themselves, and in return, they themselves may someday benefit from a similar donation. Cheaters (bats that refuse to share) are remembered by the colony and ousted from this collaboration. Vampire bats are much more likely to regurgitate for bats who have regurgitated before - since the bats live in fairly stable sororities of 8-12 individuals, they are capable of recognizing each other, and regurgitating is often based on past experiences.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocal_altruism
More "complex" behaviours based on moral principles are still observed in other animals and can still be incorporated into an evolutionary framework.
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siddiqua
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 29, 2009 - 02:44 AM
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You are right jamesAn, that was quite silly referring to the origin of mdna and the existence of god. the point i was trying to make is that all of our findings so far were based on pure surmise which we have gradually proved with evidence, so i am saying that it is possible that we may one day prove the existence of god.
also, yes, i totally agree that animals have moral behaviour as this is what my religion teaches, and animals are supposed to have their own form of worship. but my point is why is anyone unable to explain the phenomenon of "luck" during the course of our evolution. as i mentioned earlier, all members of a family have similar traits, similar characteristsics, similar behavioural patterns, similar tool building capacities, but why is there such an enormous gap between ourselves and other members of our family in the animal kingdom ? this isn't a random possibility surely. evolutionary psychology hasn't yet explained why an animal species would act ethically in the first place. i understand it would be for an advantage, or for survival in a herd, but sayfor ex, elephants paying respect to their dead , how did that action/behaviour originate. there is too much chaos, or too many things working at macro as well as atomic levels to be just random happenings.
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siddiqua
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 29, 2009 - 02:59 AM
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Haha , as for the teapot, it could very well float in space. yes, it could be that the burden of proof is on the claimant not the skeptic. but that was russell's view, not mine. the burden of proof lies as much on the claimant as on the skeptic because the skeptic refuses to believe therefore any amount of evidence is required from the skeptic to prove the converse. 
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siddiqua
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 29, 2009 - 03:02 AM
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lenrosen4 wrote:
That's not god or gods' given. That's the luck of the evolutionary draw mixed in with time, climate influences and the good fortune that no asteroids or other catastrophic events have occurred during our short period of speciation on this planet.
dear len,
if i do agree with you, i still don't get how you would explain 'good fortune' and 'luck' in scientific terms and evidence-based proof.
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Len Rosen
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 29, 2009 - 07:47 AM
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Hi Sid,
The expression "good fortune" and "luck" are all about random events, unplanned circumstances. This is not about karma or predestination.
We are the sum of evolutionary processes through time. We are the results that come from a planetary history that has gone through major upheavals over geologic time with extinction events that have selected survivor gene pools and organisms to carry on.
The ability of organisms to endure, although remarkable, appears to be quite ordinary in the galactic scheme of things, in particular on this planet.
As we explore other solar system bodies and study exo-planets we may find just how ordinary living organisms are.
Technical societies that reach out into space may be rare. Considering the billions of galaxies that we can see, and the many billions of stars that encompass galaxies, planets exist everywhere in this universe. Where there are planets and the right constituent elements, as yet to be discovered life exists. When you add time, randomness, evolutionary forces, technical social animals capable of exploring their surrounding space are probably out there. It is only the immense distances and limits of physical laws in this universe that inhibit our ability to seek and find species as technical as humans.
But we are just starting on that voyage of discovery. Only 40 years ago we landed on a nearby Earth satellite. We have a long way to go and much to learn.
One thing for sure, we pushed out to the Moon and have sent our satellites on a Grand Tour of the inner planets of this Solar System. No one showed up behind a green curtain, pulling the strings. It seems the more we push our limits of discovery and knowledge, god or gods become more and more remote.
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Otis
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
August 22, 2009 - 08:29 AM
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All matter had to have had an origin, When you see a building you do not assume it was always there, you assume someone made blueprints, got the materials and then the building was constructed. If we walk down an empty road one day and see nothing, then come back a week later and see a new building we don't assume "oh this building must have been a random occurrence", no we naturally assume someone built it, why should the universe be different? its not just about us, our placement in the solar system, the balance of oxygen in the atmosphere, people, do you realize how SLIM a margin there is for life to exist? we are smack dabbed within a perfect region for life, all criteria are fulfilled and i am to believe this was just dumb luck? please............. and there was a post earlier about who made God, God is the ultimate cause, without which there can be no beginning nor end. Simple science, every reaction has an opposite and equal reaction, cause and effect, Without an initial factor, then right now, there would be nothing. He is the source of all origin and as such exists outside of time. Without a God or an ultimate Creator then we simply would not be. As to the way He made life, well...... your guess is as good as mine
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!xotîz
This post was edited on: 2009-08-22 at 09:42 AM by: Oats162
This post was edited on: 2009-08-22 at 09:45 AM by: Oats162
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Len Rosen
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
August 22, 2009 - 03:00 PM
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Dear Otis,
The building analogy is most interesting. Matter exists as a byproduct of the Big Bang. You see order and a creator as the explanation for our existence. I'm sure this works for you. It answers all your questions. It certainly doesn't answer mine. I look at the shear randomness of what is the cosmos and then I apply the billions of years of time and voila we as human species emerge along with all animals and plants on this tiny planet, mid-way up one of the arms of the Milky Way galaxy, an abode of life circling a relatively stable solar environment. Here we reside on the third planet of a very ordinary star in a galaxy composed of billions of stars, and surrounded by hundreds of millions of galaxies as far as the eyes of our telescopes can see. When we look at the distant galaxies we can see back in time to just before the Big Bang, over 12 billion years ago. So my question for you is, where does your creator fit in with all of this? Did he, she or it start it all? Does he, she or it intervene in our lives? Does he, she or it determine the alignment of planets and stars, the intelligent designer? If so, and if we are the ultimate expression of his, her or its work,then how come we are parked on a small planet, tucked away around an ordinary star, halfway up one of the galactic pinwheel arms, in one of millions of galaxies. Shouldn't the ultimate expression of intelligent design sit right smack dab in the centre of it all? If all this was designed for us why stick us in such an obscure place? Or do you have an explanation that all this discovery we have been doing is smoke and mirrors provided by the Divine to keep us busy while he, she or it works its mysteries. I think it is important to have an open mind when approaching the search for truth. Absolute certainty seems to be the realm of those who are religious. The rest of us ask the questions. The rest of us accept that global warming requires not divine intervention but human action. The rest of us are subject to the non-divine search for answers to who, where, when and how all of this that we observe and study came into existence.
This post was edited on: 2009-08-22 at 04:23 PM by: lenrosen4
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