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Liam O'Doherty
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Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
June 13, 2009 - 07:34 PM
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This thread is intended for discussion about the origin of our species and universe. Must the theories of Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design be opposed to each other?
Check out this article in the Guardian and this video from new scientist for more info on the ida fossil who has recently renewed the debate.
This post was edited on: 2009-06-13 at 07:42 PM by: Liamjod (Moderator)
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siddiqua
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
June 15, 2009 - 10:20 AM
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In the Gallup poll, only four people out of ten believed in Darwin's theory. I don't think any one theory could be conclusive or should be taught as the truth of what happened because we don't know for sure. I've always been confused about evolution. In my personal view God created everything, but that fact doesn't have to mean that evolution could be discounted. Because maybe divine decree meant that species evolve, that newer galaxies form, etc. I certainly don't believe that human beings evolved from anthropoids or lesser intelligent beings. But I'd apply evolution to quite a lot of aspects of life. Take any infectious organism, a virus that infects a living creature, I mean their sheer adaptability to change their proteins, to become a new strains etc,to change their host etc., is evolution. Even how a few plants develop resistance to disease when the otehrs succumb, that's evolution for me. But I think all species were, are, essentially the same. They were either there, or not there, but didn't evolve into newer different forms. So this statement makes me a creationist ? I think so.
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siddiqua
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
June 15, 2009 - 10:23 AM
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On the whole, I don't think people should get so worked up about whose theory is right and whose theory is wrong. I find it futile that teaching evolution in schools is strongly opposed. Its not like you have to go away from your beliefs if you study about it.
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prieten47
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
June 16, 2009 - 03:05 AM
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sidsayed wrote:
In the Gallup poll, only four people out of ten believed in Darwin's theory. I don't think any one theory could be conclusive or should be taught as the truth of what happened because we don't know for sure.
Let's take a vote on whether the Earth is flat or a sphere. Let's take a vote on whether the theory "Fred-did-it" or Evolution best explains the life forms on this planet. Oh, wow, only 4 votes for Evolution, 6 votes for "Fred-did-it", "Fred-did-it" wins!
Creationism and Intelligent Design (ID)are the basically same thing, two poor efforts to give religious explanations for the diversity of life forms on this planet. Creationism is The Noah's Ark theory and ID is the "everything looks so complicated so God must have done it" theory.
A simple understanding of Evolution/ Natural Selection reveals that complex life forms can arise given sufficient time. Earth has had 5 billion years to play with.
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Jim Bailey
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 1, 2009 - 03:04 AM
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I look fwd to this debate - For me God created as Genesis claims - for better understanding view www.creation.com - Onward - Jim
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Md. Farhad Hussain
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 1, 2009 - 03:49 AM
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I am not going to question "Who created universe?" or "Is Darwin's theory correct?" or "Is Intelligent Design the right way to explain the creation of universe?"
My question is the following:
"If the so called God is the creator of everything, then who have created God?" I think we will never be able to answer this question.
If we can conclude that God has come from nowhere then why it is not possible to conclude that the universe has appeared from nowhere?
I don't know whether God exists or not but after seeing the suffering of majority of the people living in this earth, I can conclude that the reputation of our so called omnipotent God is very very bad.
It seems to me that it will be better for the mankind if God does not exist.
This post was edited on: 2009-07-02 at 01:44 AM by: mfhussain
This post was edited on: 2009-07-02 at 01:49 AM by: mfhussain
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Ned Hamson
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 1, 2009 - 08:36 AM
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 I live in Cincinnati, Ohio. Just across the river from the museum created by creationists and I.D. folks to celebrate their limited view of the universe created/that is God.
I understand that creationists and ID folks are afraid that if their belief that human beings a special and apart from nature is not true their belief in God must be false. Human beings are different but as we see almost everyday we are not above or apart from nature.
I think that fear is based on a belief in magic and that God is apart from or outside of nature and something like a supreme magician.
They cannot get comfortable with the idea that God is omnipresent - in and apart of everything but not constantly dabbling with the universe.
Evolution is a theory about a work in progress since everything is still evolving. If things were not evolving, we would not be here and the dominate form on earth would - grin - be a clam, perhaps or a turtle.
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Len Rosen
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 1, 2009 - 08:49 AM
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Everyone needs to read "The Blind Watchmaker" to begin to really understand Darwin's theory of evolution. The human species has trouble getting a perspective on the sheer immensity of time that plays out through the evolutionary history of life on this planet. Time and numbers are keys in the evolutionary chain that has led from single cell life, to complex multicellular life, to greater complexity in specialized organs within living creatures. We live on this planet less than a century. Ten thousand centuries make up a million years. Life on this planet has been around for more than 2.5 thousand million years. DNA and genes can do a lot of random things in all that time with selectivity from best adaptations to the environment driving the evolutionary process. It's all about giving it the time to work the wonder that has led to the complex life that covers our planet today. There have been many setbacks through catastrophic climate altering events throughout that history. Some have created mass extinctions leading to the opening of new bio niches for better adapted species of life to enter and flourish. We as a species are constrained in our perception of all of this because we have a biological clock that delimits our lifespan to a very small segment in the very big picture. It's like looking at a single pixel and trying to figure out the entire picture.
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James An
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 1, 2009 - 06:37 PM
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I see evolution is being quite compatible with belief in God. After all, we can easily suppose God created the mechanisms that the theory of evolution explains. Maybe God made natural selection random. Faith and evolution are not mutually exclusive.
The debate between evolution and creationism (and it's new brand, intelligent design or ID) is largely a political and cultural one that flourishes in the public confusion on scientific terminology.
In common usage, "theory" often refers to conjectures, hypotheses, and unproven assumptions. However, in science, "theory" usually means "a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena." [1]
In fact, the debate around ID has stirred enough controvery that some of the world's most reputable and prolific scientific communities have declared their rejection of creationism and ID and affirmation of the theory of evolution. [2] The collection comprises of some of the greatest minds of our time and the greatest scientific institutions.
Evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered. [3]
Simply observe your daily life to convince yourself of our reliance on the theory. Much of what you come into daily contact with has been shaped, created, or designed because of an application of the theory of evolution. Medicine. Food. Clothing. And probably most of all - fossil fuel and all the energy we derive from it.
The fact that we observe bacteria mutate into antibiotic-resistant strains is proof that they evolve. That we take annual flu shots because the strains evolve is another fact. So is the whole scare over H1N1 (aka. the swine flu). All the genetically-modified foods (and there's a lot!) we eat is based on an understanding of genetics and evolution. Even farming methods that breed crops have an understanding of genetic inheritance. The cotton in your clothes is grown with such an understanding
Our reliance on gas and fossil-fuel derivatives is more everyday proof of evolution and a clear validation of what we know in paleontology. That the world isn't 10000 years old is a fact we have unknowingly embraced by driving our cars, by turning on our lights, by using City treated water, because the median age of the world's oil is 35 million years [4]. There's definitely no shortage of examples on our usage of fossil fuel.
Not only is much of this explained through a reliance on the theory of evolution, a lot of these technological and scientific breakthroughs happened in the 20th century because of the theory of evolution.
So, somehow belief in evolution seems a bit irrelevant, at least to me. That we live how we do is proof that there is a lot of truth in evolution.
[1] Wikipedia, Creation–evolution controversy. Retrieved July 1, 2009.
[2] Wikipedia, Creation–evolution controversy. Retrieved July 1, 2009.
[3] Gould, Stephen Jay (1981), Evolution as Fact and Theory, The Unofficial Stephen Jay Gould Archive. Retrieved July 1, 2009.
[4] Paul Mann, Lisa Gahagan, and Mark B. Gordon, "Tectonic setting of the world's giant oil and gas fields," in Michel T. Halbouty (ed.) Giant Oil and Gas Fields of the Decade, 1990-1999, Tulsa, Okla.: American Association of Petroleum Geologists, p.50. Retrieved July 1, 2009.
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prieten47
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 1, 2009 - 08:35 PM
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Wow, my hat's off to the last four posters. I was worried Evolution would find few defenders here at TIG.
Evolution is obviously the best theory for explaining all life forms here on Earth.
The question of the origin of the universe, of course, Evolution doesn't shed much light on. Most scientists subscribe to the Big Bang theory, based on the still observable expansion of the universe.
Many people adhering to one of the Abrahamic religions will cling to the Big Bang theory as their last hope, the "last refuge" for their Genesis version of the origin of the universe.
But there simply isn't any evidence to support this wishful thinking that some deity is behind it all.
Why can't we accept the awesome fact that there are probably few inhabited worlds in this universe. We are extremely lucky to be alive and evolved enough to appreciate it. I wish we could spend less time trying to fight over silly man-made differences and more time acting like the brothers and sisters we truly are on this paradise in the universe called Earth.
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Koopinello
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 2, 2009 - 04:47 AM
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It is sad to think that there are so many people who still believe in the existernce of a god, one that created the universe and is omnipotent and omniscient. There is absolutely no evidence for this at all. At the moment we do not understand the existence of matter and anti matter, however it is only a matter of time before scientists can both create life from inanimate matter and can fully understand the forces that have created the universe. People who believe in a god have either been indoctrinated into an unsustainable faith or have hope of an afterlife. They cannot face the fact that we are entirely responsible for our own destiny and must determine our own future , not one that is ordained by some non existent intelligent designer.
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Len Rosen
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 2, 2009 - 09:35 AM
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I am enjoying reading the various postings for this discussion. God is a wonderful concept, a great explanation of things we don't know or understand. I am sure that our requirements for an alpha figure are a construct of our species social nature. We always need a leader. Chimpanzees defer to an alpha female and male. Gorillas do as well. We don't see this pattern in orangutan because they tend to be loners. Gibbons and other primates also have social constructs with alpha leaders. So God is our ultimate alpha, higher than a President, a Prime Minister or a queen or king.
How difficult it is for us a species to get outside our "boxed view" to recognize what constrains us from understanding just how rich this universe is in the constructs that have led to the rise of our species on a small rocky planet, rotating around a moderately-sized star, half-way up the arm of one of the pin-wheel arms of our galaxy, a galaxy containing hundreds of millions of stars in a universe with hundreds of millions of visible galaxies.
We are not unique. The building blocks of life, the chemistry is all around us in the galaxy and in intergalactic space. We're just starting down the path of beginning to understand what is in this universe. It is even harder for us to envision other universes in what string theory predicts, the multiverse.
When I was a child I used to go to the river near our house and just look at what was in that river, the range and variety of life, the way different plants and animals interacted, how changes in the chemistry of the river altered life. I continue to study even in my backyard as I watch ants organize their social existence, or bumblebees attack my flower garden in search of nectar. The behaviours are not random. They are built on a foundation of millions of generations of life that preceded them, constructing and deconstructing filaments of DNA that have led to creating a sentience that is beautiful to watch.
What an absolute rush to continue to explore this amazing existence, the consciousness of being, the ability to pose questions, theorize, speculate, without constraint, knowing that there is no single entity that governs any of it because you can view it from outside the boundaries of our species genetic engineering. This is not the engineering of intelligent design. This is the engineering of survival based on thousands of millions of years.
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DominicT
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 3, 2009 - 04:57 AM
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These are God's best kept secrets, may be we should just let them be.
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prieten47
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 5, 2009 - 03:37 AM
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Right you are, Koopinello!
And Len Rosen, that's one of the nicest posts I can remember reading here at TIG.
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siddiqua
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
July 5, 2009 - 04:01 AM
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Maybe we should have two categories in this debate - the realists and the 'fantasists' because belief in god seems to be a fantasy to most. I agree with Jame An. why can't it be that a divine hand allowed evolution to take place over millions of years. because i don't see how belief in the divine is separate from scientific theory, evolution or a study in biology. I find it impossible that we can "create" new life. Koopinello suggests that in the future scientists could create life from inanimate matter. But the questions is, where did this "matter" come from. Who "created" these building blocks. We could create viruses in a lab, but who created a virus's building blocks? Let's get to say, the basic microbial construction here. Who created the carbon atom, the building block of life? Or electrons or their spins. You can't expect me to convince me that it just "happened". How did the first tiny particle come into being ? If you'd have to convince someone about evolution, there must be some place where it all originated. And how did that "place of origin" come into being there ?
This post was edited on: 2009-07-05 at 04:10 AM by: sidsayed
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