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Terri Willard
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Pulling in from other threads
November 18, 2003 - 06:48 AM
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Originally posted by Abongta in http://www.takingitglobal.org/discuss/showthread.php?threadid=4482
Well I honestly consider as well as many other upright people homosexuality to be a critical stage of failing morals. It’s a life style, yes I agree and be it genetic or not does not cancel the fact that homosexuality is something out of the normal and thus, not in compliance with uprightness or sound moral rectitude.
Hi Abongta, I hope you don't mind me moving this discussion from one thread to another, but... it seemed more fitting here.
I need you to clarify your argument. Right now it sounds like you are saying that anything out of the statistically "normal" is not in compliance with sound moral rectitude. My gut feeling is that you don't intend to state that people who are left-handed or who are genetically dwarfs are somehow less upright than the rest of the population. But, you've left yourself wide open to those kinds of comments with your statement. I'm unwilling to leave you open to potshots when this is something I know that you care about deeply.
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Johannes
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Re: Homosexuality
November 18, 2003 - 11:43 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Abongta in http://www.takingitglobal.org/discu...p?threadid=4482 Well I honestly consider as well as many other upright people homosexuality to be a critical stage of failing morals. It’s a life style, yes I agree and be it genetic or not does not cancel the fact that homosexuality is something out of the normal and thus, not in compliance with uprightness or sound moral rectitude.
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I think I'd like to state some things about what you are saying here Abongta -- and a cheers go to Taikod ofr posting this in to this thread.
Firstly I'd like to say thanks for considering me an unright person -- though I consider myself a person of high morals. I don't know how many lebsian, gay, bisexual or transgendered person you know, but for me I see an array of lifestyles. Being a homosexual is NOT a lifestyle.
We all make life choices be it making bad decisions or making good ones. I find it appaling that you think only straight people make moral decisions. I hope you don't read the news one day and find out George W Bush is straight and has a wife and contributed to a humanitarian disaster in Iraq.
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Raymond M. Kristiansen
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Re: Homosexuality
November 19, 2003 - 07:41 AM
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I consider myself a liberal person, and I believe in diversity. If X guy wants to kiss another person of Male gender instead of Female gender then go right ahead. As long as nobody is hurt in the process everything is fine by me.
Where I start to doubt is when there is a child involved. Does the child get hurt in some way by having gay parents, let's say if his biological father and that father's boyfriend/husband? As far as I know there is quite some psychological research on this and at least half of the results are that nope, children do not get hurt or feel badly because of their parents sexual orientation. I am not yet decided upon whether I support a gay couple doing an adoption. But I realise that the issue is complex (that's why I cannot decide), and that there are more than one way to see it.
However, personally, I don't personally use moralistic right/wrong as an argument at all. To me, it all cooks down to whether someone is hurt.
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Layusa Isa-Odidi
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Re: Homosexuality
November 28, 2003 - 11:13 AM
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i hold the belief that most if not all of the decisions you make in life and the aspects that exists in your personality are not a result of nature. therefor, it is not "natural" to be homosexual, nor is it "natural" to be heterosexual. you are just born. i'm not claiming to know what causes people to choose one path over the other, or even if they make a conscious choice about this, but whatever the case is, it's really nobody else's place to judge. sexual orientation is a personal choice
for those people who have an aversion to it, that's fine, there's no way i could change that and it's not my place to change it, so i won't bother, however make sure that your opinions don't infringe on anybody else's right to life and freedom of choice
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LGH
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Re: Homosexuality
December 1, 2003 - 07:21 AM
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Two ways:
How does a woman conceive?/How are babies made?
Who has the eggs?/Who has the sperm?
Psycological orientation says 'meant to be flying' = jumping off a cliff? - no offense meant simply replicating reasons for action.
The world is a complex place filled with complex people living complex lives dying complex deaths leaving behind the complex world for more complex beings to compound the complexities of our simple but complex world.
Abientot.
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Crystal_Abongta
连接： Oct 18, 2002
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It's Interesting isn't it
December 1, 2003 - 09:50 AM
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Its interesting isn’t it?
That we should not raise eyebrows to homosexuality,
That we should sit and watch our neighbors (in Jesus’ context) wither in abject suffering
That normal people sit to argue why abnormal people should be tolerated
That we struggle to provide drinking water to the thirsty while walking in the wilderness
That there are people on two legs like you and I thinking homosexuality is genetic
That we should accept the gay all the same despite the terrible work they did in getting the HIV on the rampage from the beginning
The wise know that though life is a personal experience, how much we sail through the little stage of life depends to a greater extend on the choices we make. If there are people with the same type of cerebellum I have insisting that homosexuality is just another sexual orientation that we need to understand and accept then I can only wish them well in such and obsolete preference.
I thought like the Good Samaritan, when you meet a person in pain, you get to heal the wounds than asking what caused them. I once told a group of guys that once a man fell into a pit:
A mathematician came and calculated the depth of the pit
A philosopher said he was certain somebody would fall into that pit
A psychologist said the pit was only in the mind
The moralist said the guy was responsible for falling into that pit
The Good Samaritan seeing that man in the pit stretched out his hand and pulled him out of the pit.
All of us can best locate our efforts and direction in this whole issue. One thing I seem to be missing out on is that there can be two types of personalities; those whose consciences controls them and those who control their consciences.
But I keep seeing a problem in the whole scenario, homosexuals are people in great pain, they are lacking within and have a sense of emptiness, they have a degree of disfunctioning within and can be compared to narcotics who feel the pains of their needles, they know the negative outcome and yet they surrender to self-destruction all the same. They suffer most of all from self-stigmatization before what the public thinks of them. That is the work of the conscience in place, a kind of feedback mechanism warning you of the wrong responses to your reflexes. We need to move towards them with the objective of reorientating them to the normal not in reassuring them that they are on the good footing. Giving them the wrong impression of care is a serious crime against humanity. Don’t ask me what the normal is, we’ll not get to that now.
Some clarifications, I have not said anywhere that homosexuals physically appear differently or would reason differently on the mental plane. They have infiltrated all circles. They are found in politics, science, arts, etc and some of the times as leaders. They are taking place in many day-to-today normal activities. Its just like the aliens who have infiltrated our planet, they are just like everybody else but have the cultic side of their lives that makes them abnormal in that aspect.
Homosexuality is just like a cult, if you ask me about inferiority, I would tell you they have that feeling of inferiority stemming from self-stigmatization.
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meland
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Que sera sera
December 1, 2003 - 10:16 AM
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why do we have to argue about hoosexuality. I belive the saying "one mans meat is another mans poison" What we may find wrong is right in another man's land. Do we know that Homosexuality was practised during the Greeco-Roman period. It is even part of some poeple's culture where rich men are advised to have male wives. What then happens. Que sera sera we should not be bashing others because of what they are but tery and work together in unity and help each other out.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Homosexuality
December 1, 2003 - 10:49 AM
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Thank you Abognta - that was one of the most balanced posts I have seen from you.
Oy - cancel that, I just read your next response.
You can't force people to be like you - it just doesn't work and an amazing amount of energy and violence is created in this world by this urge to control other people's lives.
In my experience everyone has so many faults - so many potential areas for growth in their own lives - that they would be better served to concentraite on their own character before critisizing others.
I'm not sure why you are assuming that homosexuals are in some kind of pain - if that is really a basis of your arguement then I think we can strike it down quickly enough -
- Talkoid - are you in some kind of pain do to your sexual orientation - are you looking for a "good Samaritan" to "cure" you?
" That we should accept the gay all the same despite the terrible work they did in getting the HIV on the rampage from the beginning" - Abognta
If you want to argue about the problems created by certain social groups why not just look at Christianity and the Inquisition, the Crusades, The Salem Witch Trials, the enslavement of African "savages" ect. ect. ect.
Right now the Catholic Church is excacerbating the HIV problem in Africa by discouraging the use of condoms and spreading misinformation about them.
It is also strange that you are all concerned with conception ect. - Human beings are the only animals on the planet who have sex for pleasure - read "The Naked Ape" by Desmond Morris
Other mammels have sex during certain periods of the year or of the females menstral cycle.
Human being have evolved beyond sex purely for reproduction - we have sex all year long and all month long - even when women are incapable of conceiving.
If the only point of sex were reproduction then couples would only engage in sex for a few days a month.
"Its just like the aliens who have infiltrated our planet, they are just like everybody else but have the cultic side of their lives that makes them abnormal in that aspect. Homosexuality is just like a cult, if you ask me about inferiority, I would tell you they have that feeling of inferiority stemming from self-stigmatization." - Abognta
Whew! So you think there are aliens living among us besides gay people - are you talking about little green men from Mars or what? If you think we are being taken over by aliens then I really just can't take you seriously.
Finally - I just don't think you really know many gay people - they are not aliens, they are not in pain - they are insulted and persecuted by people like yourself, but that is why people like me make a point of accepting them.
You assert things like "they have a sense of emptiness" - but what a rediculous thing to say - how the hell do you know? Again, lets ask - Talkoid do you feel a sense of emptiness due to your orientation?
You keep asserting that homosexuality is like a narcotics addiction which really proves that you don't know anything about either one.
Here you actually have an opportunity to talk to a few Gay people and actually learn something, but you are too busy telling them who they are - do busy pretending you know it all - too busy spouting your own pompous moralistic rhetoric to discuss this with Gay people (I am not one) and actually learn something - actually gain some perspective and idea what you are talking about.
Abognta, I know you would like to see yourself as God's glorious savior, 'curing' all these poor Gay people - but really this is very presumptious - as though your life is somehow 'better' than theirs, as though you were wiser, and know what is best for them. You don't - you are still a boy and have much left to learn - and no one asked you to save them.
fools speak when they should listen - they are always so impressed with what they think they know. The wise listen.
Now I suggest you ask some questions of the Gay people participating in this thread - you might learn something.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Homosexuality
December 1, 2003 - 11:08 AM
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Nick Carrol - I read your post and I don't see anything wrong with your thinking - you are certainly allowed to have whatever reaction you want to seeing it - I don't really like watching guys make out either - and your religion is your religion - whatever.
So I understand perfectly well why you do not want to be a homosexual
- The question I have - which Antoine asked earlier - is what right do you have to make that descision for other people?
I'm not gay either - it not against my religion or anything I just don't find guys attractive - but that just me - other people are different from me and I accept that.
I'm sure being Jewish is against your religion too, or Islamic, or Hindu - all of these beleifs systems are prohibited by your religion - so by the same token does that make me a bad person because I am Jewish?
As for it being unnatural - well you answered your own question - it occurs in nature - then you said not everything that occurs in nature is 'good' - so in your own statements you admitted that it was natural but that everything natural is not necissarily "good"
Well sure - Cancer is part of nature but it is certainly bad. But this just gets back to subjective morality - homosexuality is completely natural - you just beleive it to be something that occurs in nature which is 'bad' - well that is a subjective moral view - it is not a fact.
I am not going to tell you think that being Gay is 'good' - I simply think some people are born with this predisposition and if it makes them happy and hurts no one else - I have no problem with it.
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Michael Newton-McLaughlin
连接： Dec 2, 2001
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Re: Homosexuality
December 1, 2003 - 11:39 AM
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Its interesting isn’t it?
<<That>>
Why should we raise an eye brow to it? What neighbors are you talking about?
<<That>>
Ah! Yes, the great call of the fuehrer...
<<That>>
It really fucking bothers me when pundits of said cause use catch phrases for the sake of using catch phrases without any sort of substance to them. I'm guilty of it too sometimes.
<<That>>
Interesting enough, I'm willing if you are to try and bring a scientific debate to this discussion. I have enough biology, anthropology, chemistry and genetics knowledge, as well as directly studying sexuality, to have a pretty good debate about it. The problem is: you do not seem interestin in actually having a discussion or debate regarding this claim, you just like to make it.
<<That>>
I'll add onto Luke's post regarding this one... first off, diseases and disorders through certain groups do not have any set of berrings on their moral character. Unless ofcourse the chinese are now evil because SARS broke out among that population the worst. Or perhaps men of European descent should not be accepted because they are five times as likely to carry the gene linked to prostate cancer. Or, perhaps, we should persecute west Africans on the premise that they have been linked as the progenitors of sickle cell anemia! Oh my!
and Luke, I am not quite sure about the 'humans are the only animals that have sex purely for pleasure' - if you spend enough time around certain types of primates, you might find different. There is also something to be said about domesticated mammals - though quite a few arguments about sub-conscious ques and dominance displays have been tied to that phenomenon. It's a trivial matter though, you're right, humans have evolved to enjoy and have sex for pleasure. Not just sex either, aside from 2 other species, we are the only ones to engage in cunnilingus. Oh yeah!
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Gray
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Re: Homosexuality
March 17, 2004 - 05:25 AM
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I am surpirsed that this issue is still allowed on TIG. It seems every time the discussion comes up some people start mentioning how others are immoral reprobates and will burn in hellfire for eternity because they belive other people should be allowed toi live their own lives.
Sexual orientation has been talked about as a genetic condition - the evidence is scant and studies generally disagree with this hypothesis (if you want the literature I have it somewhere).
Homosexual behaviour does appear in nature in certain animals - refer to the selfish gene hypothesis (richard Dawkins). And religion does not appear in nature.
Sexual morality - the big one - who decides what is moral? I am a little tired of bible bashers hitting old leviticus and using the words as a standard for modern behaviour. I believe that their are also dietary requirements in the bible do you god botherers follow those as well?
Equating sexual orientation with morality today is oppresion on the order of that displayed when it was said that black people were of lower intelligence than whites, or that Jews were less evolved than good aryan children.
Your moral polemics are at base a curtain for your inability to deal with other people differences.
I do not have a great deal of faith in moralists. In general they turn out to be amongst the biggest hypocrites. Evalngelical preachers are the best, they also talk about the moral good and how Jesus did not like homosexuality. Dropping l;eviticus where does Jesus say Gays are bad?
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neba princewill
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Re: Homosexuality
March 20, 2004 - 04:11 AM
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what so ever about the morality of homosexuality it is a neccesary evil in the society all those are what contribute to emergence of all kinds of sickness nad diseases in the world
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Gray
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Re: Homosexuality
March 22, 2004 - 06:54 AM
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Princewill - how does homosexuality equate as an evil? or as an exclusive transmission vector for disease?
These arguments are fallacious in the extreme. the transmission of AIDS throught the homosexual community was devestating but not a confined materialization. It would be just as valid to state that in Africa poor people are responsivble for the spread of the disease as they are the ones who are catching it.
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Johannes
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....and the discussion still goes on.
March 22, 2004 - 07:19 AM
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Well its nice to see that this debate still continues. Though it irks me that there are not people are not willing to learn about homosexuals as people rather than of "evils."
I'm gay, am I evil?
And maybe thats the reason why this discussion does continue, could it be maybe my voice as a gay person is not acknowledged because I am something abnormal?
Anyway, lets play a little game. This may be a racy statement to use, but its along the same lines. Now instead of "homosexual" we replace that word with "Asian."
Now to just use "Asian" in comments written:
Well I honestly consider as well as many other upright people "Asian" to be a critical stage of failing morals. It’s a life style... "being Asian" is something out of the normal and thus, not in compliance with uprightness or sound moral rectitude.
I am in no way advocating "being Asian", the fact is I hate it with all the ounce of rebuke I can muster but then I can’t stop anybody from being what he decides to be.
what so ever about the morality of "being Asian" it is a neccesary evil in the society all those are what contribute to emergence of all kinds of sickness nad diseases in the world.
-----------------
Now if we were actually discussing the morality of being Asian, I'm sure many people would definately shocked at this comments. But people, who's morality are we talking about?! We all come from different backgrounds -- this question seems a little odd seeing that we have been raised in different traditions, cultures, and a different set of moral codes. Also, homosexuals, disabled people, people of color, etc. we're all people -- fighting for the same thing, acceptance, not to be treated as if we were a freak show. End of story, why should people who are wanting the same thing need to be arguing with each other over which is necessary the lesser evil?
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tim
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Re: Homosexuality
March 22, 2004 - 07:37 AM
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i'm anxiously awaiting a reply from Nick. where are you, man? i want you to bring back to dicussion the nature and natural topic. i'm convinced that you know what you're talking about it, and though i know you're tired of having to explain it, i'd appreciate it if you informed me on your view on this topic.
thanks, let's keep it civilized everyone...
tim
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