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Mikael
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Homosexuality
September 29, 2003 - 02:22 AM
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Given that in another thread (Dear Dr. Laura)we have had clear statements against homosexuality, I'd like to discuss the morality of homosexuality.
In particular, why the right-wing viewpoint that homosexuality is wrong and should not be practiced?
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Homosexuality
September 29, 2003 - 02:44 AM
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Live and let live.
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Antoine Wood
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Re: Homosexuality
September 29, 2003 - 05:58 AM
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Originally posted by NickCarroll
This goes both ways right?
In particular others should also discuss why homosexuality is right and should be practiced.
Firstly I'd like to state from the start that I won't be arguing confined pre-established law, if we're going to argue this then we'll have to find our own way of conceptionalizing right and wrong.
Since the argument really hasn't started yet I'll state my opinions.
1) We can only describe someone else as doing 'wrong' when it negatively influences the life of another individual.
2) Every individual has a set of individual morals, these morals, however, should not be forced upon another, as then you'd be negatively influencing their life.
Therefore being a homosexual may not be acceptable to you, however you can only choose for yourself not all of humanity.
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Mikael
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Re: Homosexuality
September 29, 2003 - 06:21 AM
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Originally posted by farhadali
hi friends,
I want to be the part of this discussion. Involve me also. I suggest all interested to start a conference on the issue
Great! I'm glad you want to get involved. What are your views on homosexuality?
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Nick Carroll
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Re: Homosexuality
September 29, 2003 - 06:44 AM
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Originally posted by mikael
Given that in another thread we have had clear statements against homosexuality, I'd like to discuss the morality of homosexuality.
This goes both ways right?
Originally posted by mikael
In particular, why the right-wing viewpoint that homosexuality is wrong and should not be practiced?
In particular others should also discuss why homosexuality is right and should be practiced. Also this isn't a right vs left-wing issue. One of these days in another thread I'll show you why I say that. 
I'd appreciate not being attacked like I have been in the other threads. If people didn't want me answering their questions they shouldn't ask them in the first place. If anyone wants to avoid being offended by my answers (or the answers of anyone else) don't read this thread. I'm asked to give my opinions, and that's what I intend to do.
As I said in the other thread, I'll be on this tomorrow (Tuesday) so if you have questions, statements, etc, you have a day to prepare them.
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Nick Carroll
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Re: Homosexuality
September 29, 2003 - 06:46 AM
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Say can someone show me where to set my time zone in my settings? I'm in the Central time zone so I'm 6 hours behind GMT. Every time I see the time that I post it freaks me out because it's 6 hours ahead of me.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Homosexuality
September 29, 2003 - 07:50 AM
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"1) We can only describe someone else as doing 'wrong' when it negatively influences the life of another individual." - Antoine
Exactly - live and let live.
(BTW I have a friend named Antoine - I am writing this from his office)
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Faddy
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Re: Homosexuality
September 29, 2003 - 08:42 AM
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hi friends,
I want to be the part of this discussion. Involve me also. I suggest all interested to start a conference on the issue
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Mikael
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Re: Homosexuality
September 29, 2003 - 09:56 AM
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Originally posted by NickCarroll
This goes both ways right?
In particular others should also discuss why homosexuality is right and should be practiced. Also this isn't a right vs left-wing issue. One of these days in another thread I'll show you why I say that.
Oh yes =) No worries there - this is definitely a discussion about the different aspects of homosexuality, I just asked a specific question to start things off.
I'd appreciate not being attacked like I have been in the other threads.
Looking forward to a civilized discussion as well!
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Nick Carroll
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Re: Homosexuality
October 15, 2003 - 03:16 AM
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This is a moral issue so the arguements should be moral ones. No offense to those that want to argue the law on this, but there can be other threads for that.
For those who are not prepared to discuss the morality of the issue, don't infringe upon those of us who will.
And for those who merely criticize but offer no arguements of your own, shame on you. This forum is for intellectual discussion.
And one more thing, because I've seen people justify personally attacking others just because they were offended by statements they disagreed with, this is not the thread for it.
Offense is NOT intended, but I've been asked to state my opinion here, and so I shall.
To understand why this is a moral issue we must know what a moral is.
morality The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct. A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct: religious morality; Christian morality. Virtuous conduct. A rule or lesson in moral conduct. concern with the distinction between good and evil or right and wrong; right or good conduct [ant: immorality] Motivation based on ideas of right and wrong.
I swiped those from dictionary.com btw.
Basically morality is a determiner of what is right, and what is wrong.
We all have different sets of morals, and different reasons for our morality. I will present the three core reasons why I think homosexuality is wrong.
1) The first reason I think it is wrong is because I've never seen it as acceptible. This would be a "gut instinct" level reason. I see two guys kissing and it disturbs me (ditto for women). Now before I get the standard knee jerk reaction of being called a homophobe etc think about those who have such a reaction for other actions. Some people get repulsed by other things. And it's not a fear. Trust me. I have a fear of spiders. An unnatural fear. That is a phobia. I don't hide under a pillow when gays are around, etc. I WILL freak out if I see a big spider close to me.
2) I don't see homosexuality as being natural. Now before I get the standard fare lecture on how anything that occurs in nature is natural, I don't mean it in that context. A lot of things "occur in nature" but that does not mean every one of those things is neccessarily good. You guys don't know how often I argue this on other issues as well as this one. Don't even bother if it's such a response. I just don't have the time or patience I used to, particularly on this matter where that's as far as I see my opponents get.
3) My religion does not condone homosexual activity. I will not discuss my religion but it's most likely not what you think it is. I'll leave it at that because I don't feel I should be persecuted for my religion, especially when I go to great lengths to defend various religions.
So in a nutshell it's a gut feeling, an intellectual notion, and a faith-based decision. There you have it.
Now that I've given you my three reasons (for what they are worth) what are YOUR reasons homosexuality is good or bad? 
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Nick Carroll
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Re: Homosexuality
October 15, 2003 - 03:27 AM
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Originally posted by Antoine
Firstly I'd like to state from the start that I won't be arguing confined pre-established law
I agree wholeheartedly. This is a moral discussion not a legal one.
Originally posted by Antoine
if we're going to argue this then we'll have to find our own way of conceptionalizing right and wrong.
You'll note I give three moral reasons why I think homosexuality is wrong. You of course may not like them, but there they are. Originally posted by Antoine
1) We can only describe someone else as doing 'wrong' when it negatively influences the life of another individual.
Well I disagree with that absolute. I also would describe it to be wrong if someone where to negatively influence their own life as well.
Originally posted by Antoine
2) Every individual has a set of individual morals, these morals, however, should not be forced upon another, as then you'd be negatively influencing their life.
Not neccessarily. For example you prevent someone from commiting suicide and a day later they realize they want to live and they don't attempt suicide after that. In that instant you forced your morality upon another.
What if one person's morality is to walk around nude in public? Or carrying a picture of some heinous act (body mutilation, rape, whatever). Those activities don't hurt others neccessarily, at least by their standard. But to others it does.
I'm just throwing examples out. I don't think you can say as an absolute that morals should never be forced on others.
Originally posted by Antoine
Therefore being a homosexual may not be acceptable to you, however you can only choose for yourself not all of humanity.
I don't pretend to choose for all of humanity. I will however vote against homosexual legislation or for those who would vote against it. Such is my protected right as a citizen.
We all have to deal with laws that infringe on our rights. And at least in this country, there are few protected rights that cannot be infringed. However, too often they are infringed. Just just by other people, but by the govt itself.
You can no more force me not to vote my morality here than I could force you not to vote your morality. Whether or not we agree on an issue, I think we would both agree neither one of us can deny each other that right.
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Antoine Wood
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Re: Homosexuality
November 2, 2003 - 10:12 AM
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Originally posted by NickCarroll
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Antoine
I don't pretend to choose for all of humanity. I will however vote against homosexual legislation or for those who would vote against it. Such is my protected right as a citizen.
Last time I tried replying it didn't work... so I think I'll keep it short and just reply to this part, for now.
If we aren't arguing based on existing laws, then this is not a valid arguement. The real question is should we have the right to vote on the issue in the first place? So I pose that question, what gives us the right to stop to people from engaging in this behavior?
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Anouk
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Re: Homosexuality
November 3, 2003 - 05:02 AM
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I agree, Luke: live and let live.
I am in favor of homosexuality, in favor of the gay marriage and in favor of gays adopting kids.
I'm not homosexual myself but even if I was, I wouldn't care about what other people are thinking. It's my life!
P.S. And saying sth. like "I am against homosexuality because I've never seen it as acceptible" doesn't make any sense...
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Crystal_Abongta
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That is what it is
November 3, 2003 - 07:11 AM
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I am not very surprise with the postings and reactions in this thread. It goes simply to already back up what I am bout to say.
I’ve come to realize that in this world, trying to think the way others think or trying to feel the way others feel would simply make your vain and bitter and even dejected. People are unique and act or behave differently. You can only be what you were meant to be on earth, I am not introducing a new philosophy but just hitting the facts on the head.
We have different orientations, likes and dislikes in life, we appreciate life differently and that is what makes us unique. Even identical twins do have different finger prints. Thus I am not very surprised it things have gotten to calcifying people into three different sexual shades, the heterosexuals, the bisexuals and the homosexuals.
I distaste homosexuality for sure but I respect people’s sexual orientations. Nobody owns the universe alone; I can’t refuse somebody a place in this world just for the fact that he’s homosexual. They have their world, their admirers and their style. If you don’t like them, then keep a way from them without necessarily seeking public opinion.
I am in no way advocating homosexuality, the fact is I hate it with all the ounce of rebuke I can muster but then I can’t stop anybody from being what he decides to be. Morally, homosexuality is out of place and I would say outdated.
It is cutting through all the spheres of society today; we have known homosexual leaders in politics, the circular as well as the religious world. It’s an orientation that has really taken roots into our world today and so there is little or nothing we can really do about it.
Letting Homosexuals be today is not giving up or surrendering to them, it’s just realizing that it’s another class of people who love what they are and want to respect their feelings.
Homosexuals see homosexuality to be as right and morally sound as heterosexuals see heterosexuality. The difference is just at the mental and moral levels. Personally, I don’t see what on this blessed earth would push me into admiring another man like myself what that is the way it is, and we just have to accept it that way.
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Terri Willard
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Action vs. being
November 3, 2003 - 12:17 PM
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Questions of morality imply that an individual has a choice over the issue at stake...
One of the trickiest parts of debates around homosexuality is whether choice is possible. The perspectives on that further revolve around whether sexuality (and by extension homosexuality) is defined primarily as sexual acts (physical) or sexual orientation (a broader affective state).
People who believe that homosexuality is closely related to sexual acts tend to argue that a person could choose not to engage in those acts. In that perspective, there would be a choice involved and homosexuality would be a fair topic for moral debate.
People who believe that homosexuality is more closely related to sexual orientation argue that since it is an intrinsic part of one's being, there is no choice involved. Whether by nature, nurture, or divine grace - we are who we are. In this perspective, there is no more room for arguments about intrinsic morality than would be possible over the morality of having blue eyes.
Nevertheless, there is ALWAYS room for discussion regarding the morality of particular sexual actions, even under the second perspective. EVERYONE has a moral obligation to engage in safe and consensual sexual activities which demonstrate respect and care for both oneself and the other. If anyone wants to start a thread on sexual ethics, I'd be very willing to chip in some perspectives on that which have emerged from moral theology being undertaken by the gay theological community in North America.
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