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Robert

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Re: Universal Declaration of Human Rights Part II
May 8, 2009 - 12:19 PM

Expat1970 wrote:

discuss please

Why we should celebrate 60year of the UDR !!

anyone hijacking of this thread should be banned

How could I have missed this gem of a thread? *

The response, I'm sure has been overwhelming.

We have come a long way since 1948 but we still have a long way to go.

Expat - You or anyone else may not like comments as they pertain to Islam, however suggesting people be banned for having a different opinion falls short of the very concept of the UDHR.

If we were to compare the rights of women as they exist in Islamic countries with the rights supposedly guaranteed under the UDHR, what would we find? We could show how the rights of non-Muslims are limited in many Islamic states; how freedom of expression is severely curtailed and how freedom of religion and belief are practically nonexistent.

Read: Universal Islamic Declaration of Human Rights

21 Dhul Qaidah 1401 19 September 1981

Cheers,

R

This post was edited on: 2009-05-08 at 12:20 PM by: RobertAllan

Khalid

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Re: Universal Declaration of Human Rights Part II
May 15, 2009 - 05:48 PM

"If we were to compare the rights of women as they exist in Islamic countries with the rights supposedly guaranteed under the UDHR, what would we find? We could show how the rights of non-Muslims are limited in many Islamic states; how freedom of expression is severely curtailed and how freedom of religion and belief are practically nonexistent".

what ever ur opinion is, but u have to keep in mind the differnce of islam and muslims, as v should keep of christinity and christians.

what states are doing has to be measured by the islamic values, and not vice-versa.

the rest we could talk on.

Robert

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Re: Universal Declaration of Human Rights Part II
May 18, 2009 - 04:10 PM

"differnce of islam and Muslims"

And that would be what exactly?

"what states are doing has to be measured by the islamic values, and not vice-versa."

So it's ok to treat women as second class citizens as long as it's in an Islamic country and meets Islamic values?

Khalid

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Re: Universal Declaration of Human Rights Part II
May 24, 2009 - 06:44 AM

And that would be what exactly?

it means in simple terms that, not whatever muslims are doing is in conformity with Islam and islamic values. they have become materialists, liberals in some aspects, and exposed to foreign cultures and accepting ideas, values and norms that are not Islamic.

in addition, Muslims, as a natural phenomenon, weak and disintegrated for the past 2 to 3 hundred years, hence some of their ideas and practices express being consequences of hatred, emotions and their own wishes,eg. the issue of jihad, and human rights, specifically, women rights.

"what states are doing has to be measured by the islamic values, and not vice-versa."

i mean, islam is the standard, the pratice of states or OIC has to be measured if that follows the injunctions of Qur'an and sunnah, the basic sources of islam. as a common misconception however, people are in habit of considering the states' practice, or muslims deeds as if they are sources of islam,hence, an un-islamic practice is considered to be a rule of islam.

So it's ok to treat women as second class citizens as long as it's in an Islamic country and meets Islamic values?

now you plz explain the relation between my above statement with ur inferred result?

if islamic states are treating women as 'second class' citizens, its their own step taken, islam prescribed different rights and obligations for men as of women. both are different, with rights and obligations suiting their creation, body composition and needs.

do you differ with it????

Robert

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Re: Universal Declaration of Human Rights Part II
May 25, 2009 - 02:23 PM

I get the not all Muslims are bad routine.

Mulims "as a natural phenomenon" is that what you are?

If you go by Muslim standards, removing a man wearing a t-shirt with Arabic words off a plane is an unacceptable display of Islamophobia, but banning an Israeli tennis player from Dubai is completely legitimate.

Islam is the standard and perhaps that's part of the problem? There all intertwined. If those members of the state are following Islamic practice how can it not anything else other than Islamic and a rule of Islam?

now you plz explain the relation between my above statement with ur inferred result?

All one has to do is take a look around the world. Muslim prejudices against women, Jews, Christians, gays, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Atheists, and just about everyone else-- are part of their/your culture. And who are we to judge if they feel they have a right to hate and kill anyone who isn't a Muslim male.

if islamic states are treating women as 'second class' citizens, its their own step taken, islam prescribed different rights and obligations for men as of women. both are different, with rights and obligations suiting their creation, body composition and needs.

Then what's the point of having a Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

It is up to Muslims themselves to decide what role they wish to play abroad and in the global culture. They can be intolerant fanatics who stay at home and expect everyone else to stay at home too. Or they can be open and tolerant enough to live side by side with others. But they can't be intolerant fanatics who expect us to be tolerant and open toward their fanatical intolerance.

Khalid

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Re: Universal Declaration of Human Rights Part II
May 31, 2009 - 05:33 AM

Mulims "as a natural phenomenon" is that what you are?

when talking of more than a billion people, a man or a group means nothing. its a fact, muslims have problems mainly because they have ignored dialogue among them and with other civilizations including christians and jews. now, why is that so, i called it a natural phenomenon of "retreat after glory". when one gets to the highest point he will have then to come down. muslims ruled in spain, india, turkey ... then lost spain , india and tureky all to others.

If you go by Muslim standards, removing a man wearing a t-shirt with Arabic words off a plane is an unacceptable display of Islamophobia, but banning an Israeli tennis player from Dubai is completely legitimate.

the existence of israel on world map, rather establishing it, is a political issue not a religious. banning a player from playing in the country is question of fact, i.e. why shouldnt u play? because ur state carrying state terrorism kills innocent women and children or that u r a jew????? definitley, the first factor is important than the later. our prophet lived with jews and had good, peaceful relations with them.

Islam is the standard and perhaps that's part of the problem? There all intertwined. If those members of the state are following Islamic practice how can it not anything else other than Islamic and a rule of Islam?

islam; a religion of peace and brotherhood, cod never be "part of the problem". its interpretation by so-called scholars and even the "orientalists", is the problem. how islam is portrayed to you is the problem, not how it is.

Muslim prejudices against women,

i am not concerned with muslim's prejudices, however, if you have any instances of "islamic" prejudices, let me know plz.

Khalid

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Re: Universal Declaration of Human Rights Part II
May 31, 2009 - 05:40 AM

... gays

it depends about your understanding of religion, if u r following one.

...and just about everyone else-- are part of their/your culture. And who are we to judge if they feel they have a right to hate and kill anyone who isn't a Muslim male.

??????

what do u mean??? elaborate plz

Then what's the point of having a Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

its a non binding declaration of the UNGA, we have put reservations to some of its provisions. on the majority, as muslims following islamic injunctions; we have to agree with it.

It is up to Muslims themselves to decide what role they wish to play abroad and in the global culture. They can be intolerant fanatics who stay at home and expect everyone else to stay at home too. Or they can be open and tolerant enough to live side by side with others. But they can't be intolerant fanatics who expect us to be tolerant and open toward their fanatical intolerance.

yes. u r right. then what?????

let me put it in other words; its up to muslims themselves to let others humiliate them the way they are or to play an active role abroad and in the global culture. the later status is achievable only by "conforming to the islamic injuctions" and following islam in its letter and spirit; whether they like it or not.

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Re: Universal Declaration of Human Rights Part II
June 1, 2009 - 06:45 AM

Responding to the original question- "why should we celebrate 60 years of UDHR?"- i think we celebrate it every year to affirm our belief in inherent rights and dignity of all human beings. However, it is important to acknowledge how the concept of rights has evolved over the years. for example- "Right to Life" is not just about "Right to survive" but it includes "Right to live with dignity". And hence, it is important to note that whenever we exclude or isolate or brand people on the basis of thier race, religion, region- we may be hurting their dignity..and hence thier rights.

it is true that UDHR is only a declaration and hence it is not binding on the member countries. Some of the conventions can be read on the following links:
http://www.hrweb.org/legal/undocs.html
www.un.org/disabilities/convention
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/k2crc.htm
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/o_c_ref.htm
www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/cedaw
http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html

I wonder which UN convention have the fellow members read and followed? It wil be interesting if members also share what each convention meant to them.

This post was edited on: 2009-06-01 at 06:46 AM by: Shweta-sj

Shweta-sj PROFILE

Robert

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Re: Universal Declaration of Human Rights Part II
June 2, 2009 - 11:53 AM

Ignoring dialogue? That has to be one of the most political correct statments I've ever read. wink

I think it go's far deeper than lack of mere talk.

the existence of israel on world map, rather establishing it, is a political issue not a religious. banning a player from playing in the country is question of fact, i.e. why shouldnt u play? because ur state carrying state terrorism kills innocent women and children or that u r a jew????? definitley, the first factor is important than the later. our prophet lived with jews and had good, peaceful relations with them.

I think your reaching there. When the Islamic agenda is to wipe out Jews. As to Israel being a terrorist state - that's a whole different thread.

islam; a religion of peace and brotherhood, cod never be "part of the problem". its interpretation by so-called scholars and even the "orientalists", is the problem. how islam is portrayed to you is the problem, not how it is.

Yes that seems to be the common denominator. Many Muslims claim the "peace" but the reality seems to be other.People speculate based on the information they are presented with.

i am not concerned with muslim's prejudices,

Maybe you should be?

Robert

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Re: Universal Declaration of Human Rights Part II
June 2, 2009 - 12:05 PM

it depends about your understanding of religion, if u r following one.

Yes as we see "gays" hang from the gallows that's all the understanding I need. Perhaps that just more of the peace you keep referring to.

yes. u r right. then what?????

Then we move forward. I'm a big fan of this author, who wrote OUTLINES OF NEW ISLAM IDEOLOGY by Tahir Aslam Gora

The question is simple:
Where are these moderates? Where are the millions of Muslims marching in the streets to protest the flogging of victims of rape? Where are the millions of Muslims marching in the streets to protest the beheading's and the suicide bombings ? Where are the millions of Muslims marching in the streets to protest the persecution of writers? Where are the millions of Muslims marching in the streets to protest the jailing of teachers? Where are the millions of Muslims marching in the streets to protest the killings of little Afghan schoolgirls and Iraqi women?

Muslims like you keep telling us that Islam is a great religion - that has been hijacked by a few extremists. What exactly has been hijacked?