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Alex Rhoden
连接： Oct 23, 2002
邮件 14
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说话温和
用户是：
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性别和年龄： 男性, 53
国家：United States
Province/State: Illinois
城市: Bloomington
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Re: Iran's "preconditions"
February 21, 2009 - 05:01 PM
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Luke, responses to your views. "Most Americans side with the Israelis - poll after poll shows that"
"Most Americans" have very little time to actually research what is happening. They come home from work and read the headlines, watch a cycle of CNN if at all, and quickly move on to spending time with their families. "Most Americans" do not read Harvard work papers and know very little about history. They do not even think to ask "Who is financing the poll?.". Polls can be very deceptive and manipulative. Polls are funded by interest groups. Large amounts of money go into them in order to bolster the interest groups point of view. The wording and phrasing of a question will elicit the desired response. You know this fact better than most Luke. Depending on how a question is phrased can elicit the desired response. The large majority of Americans are easily manipulated by polls because they lack the information and fail to do any research. I am retired and I take the time to study.
"The IAEA came out as recently as last week saying that Iran is not cooperating"
Israel has failed to cooperate with most UN mandates, Human rights groups and the world in general... Israel should be held to the same standard. Israel has been allowed to develop a nuclear arsenal and thats a fact. There has always been a double standard which favors israel over the arab world.
We can expect more instability in the region now that Avigdor Lieberman is in a position of power in Israel. Lieberman's racist and facist remarks are well documented as are his followers habit of chanting "Death to the Arabs" at his rallies. I do not expect to change your mind Luke, You can now go back to your academic debates with others. I also find your views to be uninteresting and uninformative.
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Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
邮件 156
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性别和年龄： 男性, 30
国家：United States
Province/State: California
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Re: Iran's
February 24, 2009 - 05:26 PM
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You did not answer so I will ask again - what compromises do you think Iran should make?
you have suggested many you think everyone else should make - so what about Iran? You didn't answer last time - how about this time?
The fundamental weakness in you argument is that we are discussing Iran and the US holding a dialogue and all you want to talk about is Israel. Anytime I point out Iran's failure to do X or Y you point to Israel -
two wrongs don't make a right - if you object to Israel defying the UN, then it is only logical that you should object to Iran doing so.
You can't scapegoat Israel for all of Iran's behavior.
"the possibility of mutual destruction would make both sides think twice before commiting acts of aggression"
As between Israel and Iran, perhaps - but Israel has never attacked Iran before.
What you are suggesting is absurd - that if Israel got into a fight with the Palestinians - Iran would launch nukes?? Yeah, that sounds real stable.
The fact is the only conflict Israel has recently had with its neighbors both involved Iranian proxies - Hamas and Hezbullah.
I suggest peace treaties, like those with Egypt and Jordan are more stabilizing - there has been no violence there for 40 years.
Further - given how unstable that part of the world is - and has always been - nuclear proliferation in the region carries great risk. Imagine the Iran/Iraq war if either side had nukes.
Holy wars with nuclear weapons - sounds like Armaggedon to me.
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Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
邮件 156
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性别和年龄： 男性, 30
国家：United States
Province/State: California
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Re: Iran's "preconditions"
February 24, 2009 - 05:26 PM
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Finally, you assume the Iranian leadership is the same kind of rational actor as was the Soviets - when in fact they are religious extremists, who cultivated a culture of 'myrterdom"
they used to march children across mine fields to clear them for advancing troops.
"I never said that, things are not so simplistic"
did you mean to say "I never said things were so simplistic"??? you are using a double negative here.
"have very little time to actually research what is happening. They come home from work and read the headlines, watch a cycle of CNN if at all, and quickly move on to spending time with their families."
You go to alot of trouble to explain away an inconvenient truth. by your logic American's views on any issue can be dismissed.
It is a good thing you are so much smarter then anyone else in America ; - )
"Polls can be very deceptive and manipulative"
unless they all say the same thing. How else, besides the polls, would you suggest we gage public support on this issue?
You welcome to bend yourself in knots trying to argue around the facts here - but the FACT is the majority of Americans support Israel, and most see the Palestinians as the instigators. US policy is reflective of that reality.
"You can now go back to your academic debates with others. I also find your views to be uninteresting and uninformative."
HAHAHAHAHAHA! your a trip man, last week your upset because I'm ignoring you, now you 'give me permission' go back to my other debates.
well, I thank you. I know your in your fifties, hopefully by the time you hit 60 you'll grow up.
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Alex Rhoden
连接： Oct 23, 2002
邮件 14
帖子等级
说话温和
用户是：
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性别和年龄： 男性, 53
国家：United States
Province/State: Illinois
城市: Bloomington
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Re: Iran's "preconditions"
February 25, 2009 - 12:16 PM
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Lieberman, In response to your question. "What compromises do you think Iran should make?"...The United States should ask Iran to make the same compromises that it asks of Israel... NONE AT ALL. If America is going to be an honest broker in the MiddleEast it should allow Iran to also have an arsenal to protect itself from Israel's Nuclear warheads and bio-chemical weapons.
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Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
邮件 156
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性别和年龄： 男性, 30
国家：United States
Province/State: California
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Re: Iran's "preconditions"
February 25, 2009 - 05:39 PM
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I see - when you say "we should all compromise" your full of it - you mean one side should do all the compromising.
Your usual balanced perspective. So I ask you - when has Israel ever attacked Iran? Can you show me an instance where they threatened to do so before Ahmandinejad started threatening to annihilate Israel?
You seem to be confused about who is threatening who - it is Iran which has threatened to wipe Israel off the map. It is the president of Iran which daily threatens the Israelis with violence.
Don't mean to trouble you with inconvenient truths - but I have faith you will blindly brush them over.
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
连接： May 13, 2004
邮件 117
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喋喋不休
用户是：
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性别和年龄： 男性, 29
国家：Turkmenistan
Province/State: Dashoguz
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Re: Iran's "preconditions"
March 3, 2009 - 01:41 AM
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Luke,
I strongly disagree with your suggestion that the Iranian leaders are crazy, irrational maniacs ready to start Armageddon for the sake of exterminating Jews or bring about the return of Mahdi. There is certainly some form of irrationality in the policies of the current regime in Iran, but even the current rulers are rational enough to avoid starting a nuclear war. At the very worst what Iranian leaders want is a regional hegemony--not a national suicide of which they fully aware of if they decide to directly attack Israel ever.
Check out this article by Roger Cohen. He's been to Iran recently and wrote several columns in Times, sharing his impressions. Here he is responding to his right-wring Jewish critics.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/03/01/opinion/edcohen.php
Arslan
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Andrew
连接： Dec 15, 2008
邮件 2
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性别和年龄： 男性, 49
国家：United Kingdom
城市: Epsom
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Re: Iran's "preconditions"
March 5, 2009 - 06:59 AM
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I haven't laughed so hard in ages. America is taking the region to war, Iran is a small insignificant largely insular player. American foreign policy is to instigate war and sell American munitions to the protagonists and then blame everyone else except themselves. You seem to see yourselves as protecting freedom. In reality you are protecting warmongers like Bush and Cheney while they profit from other peoples misery. The whole "free" world wishes America would take its nasty war machine and retreat behind its own borders. You were the nation who introduced the world to involving civilians onto the battlefield in your civil war. This is how history will judge America
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Andy ehwhiteboy
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Andrew
连接： Dec 15, 2008
邮件 2
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性别和年龄： 男性, 49
国家：United Kingdom
城市: Epsom
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Re: Iran's "preconditions"
March 5, 2009 - 07:04 AM
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Luke said
I have presented you with both facts and reason and you haven't changed your stubborn stance one bit -
so right back at ya!
You are acting like "Israel is evil" is a "fact" - as opposed to your opinion.
You also refuse to acknowledge any of the facts I have presented you with regarding Iran.
the pot should not call the kettle black.
This is typical of the intractable attitude of America and its war machine. The country you refer to as Israel was called Palestine and the Palestinians lived there, America forced this Stone Age society to accept the formation of Israel against their will. That is a fact. Why didn't you give the jews Alabama or Washington?
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Andy ehwhiteboy
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Stephane
连接： Mar 4, 2009
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性别和年龄： 男性, 16
国家：Canada
Province/State: British Columbia
城市: Nanaimo
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Re: Iran's "preconditions"
March 7, 2009 - 03:07 PM
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Saying that anyone is "Evil" is an opinion, not a fact, and should be used as such.
Anyways...
The thing is, Luke, have you ever thought of the possibility that all of the polls are being backed by people who want to portray Israel as the "Good Guy"? It's a possibility. Also, if people could please keep personal insults out of here and focus on Iran? Luke, you're acting like a little kid, laughing at others if they dare to insult your mightiness, and then ignoring their point of view. If you could stop that and start making logical structured arguments you might actually be able to persuade some people to your point of view.
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Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
邮件 156
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性别和年龄： 男性, 30
国家：United States
Province/State: California
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Re: Iran's "preconditions"
March 8, 2009 - 04:00 AM
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"Luke, have you ever thought of the possibility that all of the polls are being backed by people who want to portray Israel as the "Good Guy"?"
no because that would be foolish - your still very young - and it is important to question things - but you must ask intelligent questions.
here is a poll by James Zogby - he is basically the most distinguished pollster in the US, he also happens to be Muslim and pro Palestinian and the head of the of "Arab American institute"
http://www.zogby.com/news/readnews.cfm?ID=1150
If all the polls say the same thing, and they are all "backed" by people who support Israel is presupposes that Israel/jews etc control all the pollsters in the country.
This is such a painfully simple way of looking at a broad and complex country.
it is preposterous, and unfortunately those who oppose Israel often resort to this dogmatism whenever they come up against an inconvenient truth they claim it is some kind of 'conspiracy'.
here is a poll regarding Iran - http://www.zogby.com/search/ReadNews.cfm?ID=1269
here is a polling of people inside Iran
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/11508
And finally here is a poll of Arab and Jewish Americans regarding the conflict in which both groups agree to a great degree - more then you would think.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-zogby/arab-americans-and-americ_b_50585.html
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Stephane
连接： Mar 4, 2009
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性别和年龄： 男性, 16
国家：Canada
Province/State: British Columbia
城市: Nanaimo
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Re: Iran's "preconditions"
March 8, 2009 - 05:38 PM
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well, I didn't say it was a very likely possibility.
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Mekhala Chaubal
连接： Dec 17, 2008
邮件 5
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性别和年龄： 女性, 23
国家：Canada
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Re: Iran's "preconditions"
March 9, 2009 - 03:02 AM
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Hello Forum Members,
Because of complaints we have received that this forum has not been following TIG's posted rules of discussion, this thread will now be locked until further notice. The moderators would like to remind all members that remarks of a personal nature that are biased and/or may be considered discriminatory are not allowed on TIG. We also recommend that all members reread discussion and posting guidelines to avoid repeat offenses,and therefore also, possible action against their accounts.
Please contact us if you have any questions.
Thank you.
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