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gzusbmine
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Re: Iran's "preconditions"
February 4, 2009 - 09:44 PM
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Luke, you have yet to give one fact even in this thread, or any supporting documentation to any of your statements. This is my point.
Thank you for saying that I am right about the situation in Afghanistan being no more better for the people than before we came into Afghanistan. You are getting there, Luke. I am proud of you. 
I am sorry that my intellect for my age intimidates you. I can't help it. I just have an appetite for learning and my wisdom is a beautiful gift.
What is it mothers tell their children about leaving things they way they were before the children came in and messed things up...I think this a moral law that is understood around the world and the US or NATO shouldn't be an exception.
If you want people to understand your views, you should start backing them up with some substance, Luke. Of course I don't know where you get your information because you don't tell anyone on the forum. I try to debate with you but its hard when you haven't any facts or substantial claim. Its okay to have opinions, but if you want your opinions to be understood, I suggest you back them up with something legitimate. I mean your professors expect this in your research papers. Do they not? Shouldn't a forum discussing intellectual topics have the same expectation?
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Iran's
February 5, 2009 - 12:36 AM
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Luke, you have yet to give one fact even in this thread, or any supporting documentation to any of your statements
It is hard for me to take you seriously - but I'll humor you...
Iran's preconditions for dialogue
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100071458
Iran's human rights violations - being the last country to execute children - detention of political prisoners etc.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/all-countries/iran/page.do?id=1011172
Here is one full of documents about Iran's human rights abuses - read to your hearts content.
http://www.iranhrdc.org/httpdocs/English/homepage.htm
Wikapedia has a pretty comprehensive article - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Islamic_Republic_of_Iran#cite_note-safir-35
On womans rights:
The Iranian legislation does not accord the same rights to women as to men in all areas of the law.[37]
* In the section of the penal code devoted to blood money, or Diyya, the value of woman's life is half that of a man ("for instance, if a car hit both on the street, the cash compensation due to the woman's family was half that due the man's" [38]
* the testimony of a male witness is equivalent to that of two female witnesses.[39]
* A woman needs her husband's permission to work outside the home or leave the country.[37]
* Evidence given by a woman in court is considered only worth half that given by a man.[37][40]
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Iran's "preconditions"
February 5, 2009 - 12:37 AM
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in the inheritance law of the Islamic Republic there are several instances where the woman is entitled to half the inheritance of the man.[41] For example:
* If a man dies without offspring, his estate is inherited by his parents. If both the parents are alive, the mother receives 1/3 and the father 2/3 of the inheritance, unless the mother has a hojab (relative who reduces her part, such as brothers and sisters of the deceased (article 886)), in which case she shall receive 1/6, and the father 5/6. (Article 906)
* If the dead man's closest heirs are aunts and uncles, the part of the inheritance belonging to the uncle is twice that belonging to the aunt. (Article 920)[42]
* When the heirs are children, the inheritance of the sons is twice that of the daughters. (Article 907)[42]
* - If the deceased leaves ancestors and brothers and sisters (kalaleh), 2/3s of the estate goes to the heirs which have relationship on the side of the father; and in dividing up this portion the males take twice the portion of the females; however, the 1/3 going to the heirs on the mother’s side is divided equally. (Article 924)[42]
According to Zahra Eshraghi, granddaugher of Ayatollah Khomeini,
"Discrimination here [in Iran] is not just in the constitution. As a woman, if I want to get a passport to leave the country, have surgery, even to breathe almost, I must have permission from my husband."[43]
Here is a Human Rights watch article on the lack of freedom of speech - http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/1999/iran/Iran99o-03.htm
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Iran's "preconditions"
February 5, 2009 - 12:37 AM
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Here is a bit on oppression of the Baha'i minority: and others report that 202 Bahá’ís have been killed since the Islamic Revolution,[120] with many more imprisoned, expelled from schools and workplaces, denied various benefits or denied registration for their marriages. [9] Iranian Bahá'ís have also regularly had their homes ransacked or been banned from attending university or holding government jobs, and several hundred have received prison sentences for their religious beliefs, most recently for participating in study circles.
As for those who do not believe:
or Irreligious people in Iran are not recognized as citizens. While Jews, Christians and other minorities have the right to take part in university entrance exams and can become members of parliament or city councils, irreligious people are not granted even their basic rights.
And lack of academic freedom:
Amnesty International report, after May 2006 widespread demonstrations related to Iran newspaper cockroach cartoon controversy in Iranian Azerbaijan hundreds were arrested and some reportedly killed by the security forces, although official sources downplayed the scale of arrests and killings. Further arrests occurred, many around events and dates significant to the Azerbaijani community such as the Babek Castle gathering in Kalayber in June, and a boycott of the start of the new academic year over linguistic rights for the Azerbaijani community."[132]
As of 2006[update], the Iranian government has been attempting to depoliticize Iran's student body or make it supportive of the government by stopping students that hold contrary political views from attending higher education, despite the acceptance of those students by their universities. According to Human Rights Watch, this practice has been coupled with academic suspensions, arrests, and jail terms.[133
Weren't you the one who kept telling me that I do not read a broadly enough...
This info on Iran is not hard to come by - you obviously only read stuff you already agree with.
Open your mind.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Iran's
February 5, 2009 - 01:58 AM
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"I am sorry that my intellect for my age intimidates you. I can't help it. I just have an appetite for learning and my wisdom is a beautiful gift."
HA! sweetheart, get over yourself.
Nothing is more pathetic then someone bragging about how "wise" they are.
Let me drop a little 'wisdom' on you - truly wise people are humble.
They are wise enough to know that they don't know.
Where'd you go to school? Elizabeth City? Wow, your a real scholar ; - )
Since you could not simply disagree respectfully, but rather tried to patronize and insult me - I'll be blunt:
You retread the basic "anti-establishment" mantra and act like you invented it - instead of realizing that you are the perfect stereotype of a kid who read a few books in college and think they know everything.
You look down your nose at everyone who disagrees with you - they are delluded and ignorant - while you know the "real" score.
Its kind of sad. Hopefully you'll outgrow this arrogance - then you might become truly wise.
You didn't say - so I'll ask again - have you traveled outside the US at all?
Have you at least been to Mexico or Canada?
I dropped a few sources on you regarding Iran's human rights abuses that I found in a few moments -
probably, instead of digesting the fact that the Iranian government tramples human rights,you will attack the sources .
However - the Wikapedia article references close to a hundred sources so research further from there.
did it occur to you that I didn't bother sourcing my arguments because I was not confronted, in you, with a thinker worth the effort?
If you truly had the intellectual thirst you claim you would have found all these sources without my help -
I wouldn't need to "prove" to you that Iran censors free speech, or discriminates against women because you would already know it - and the only issue would be in applying the knowledge to an overall world view.
Now I know why all the real debaters who used to frequent this site have been looking me up on Facebook and asking me to come back - they all complain the level of debate is now "boring"
I'll leave you with a quote from Gandhi - source it yourself:
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom"
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gzusbmine
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Re: Iran's "preconditions"
February 5, 2009 - 01:04 PM
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Thank you Luke...I think. My question now is what is so special about Iran. I mean isn't China just as guilty of human rights issues? Why not bomb them and replace their government with a democracy? Or is that on next year's agenda for you? Oh, I understand, one country at a time (all funded by U.S. citizens) we will be a safer world. I get it. Well, your choice. I think there are better ways to spreading democracy, but if war is your choice, then I accept your opinion.
I am sorry if my reply came off arrogant to your reply about my age being a factor in my understanding of current events. I don't look down on you Luke...I am mostly sad for you now. Did you know that the most successful, intelligent and wisest people in the world never even graduated college? I hardly think where I graduated from or where I have been is relevant. I have a humble respect of those in other countries and their plight. I take my own individual time to research primary and secondary resources to determine my view. I need only be able to read and comprehend to do this. I need only be able to understand right and wrong. I hardly need a college education to do any of that.
I merely try to point out to you the bigger picture of the elite using human rights as a way to manipulate the world for their own greed. Ah, but maybe the elite deserve all the riches in the world, and we should bow down and be their slaves. They will take care of us, won't they?
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Iran's
February 6, 2009 - 08:45 AM
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"Thank you Luke...I think. My question now is what is so special about Iran. I mean isn't China just as guilty of human rights issues?"
Your welcome.
If you would like to start a thread on China's human rights abuses - please do.
If China's leadership sounded like Ahmandinejad I imagine tensions with China would be much higher.
The reason Iran's abuses were brought up is because the President of Iran is demanding an 'apology' from Obama - and Alex suggesting he had a right to one - else Iran's human rights record, extensive as it is would not be germane to the discussion.
"Why not bomb them and replace their government with a democracy?"
sigh...
Obama is attempting dialogue - in order to avert conflict - and Iran is spitting in his face.
I am suggesting that the best possible outcome is resolution through dialogue - and this is only possible if Iran is willing to talk.
at this point it is Iran who is unwilling to talk.
For the record - war with Iran would not look anything like war in Iraq - no boots on the ground - no reconstructing a government - everything done from the air.
However the goal should be to avoid war - this is done through diplomacy.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Iran's "preconditions"
February 6, 2009 - 08:46 AM
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"I think there are better ways to spreading democracy, but if war is your choice, then I accept your opinion. "
Not sure why you are having so much trouble with this - the POINT of this thread is that dialogue is needed to avoid war - direct dialogue aimed at conflict resolution between Iran and the west.
Obama is offering to begin this dialogue - and Iran is slapping his hand away.
Make no mistake - absent dialogue there will be war - the Israelis will simply fly in and hit as much of Iran's weapons and nuclear infrastructure as possible - how things escalate from there no one knows.
Ahmandinejad has spent the last few years declaring genocidal intentions toward the Israelis - at the same time he develops nukes and ballistic missiles -
this is no game - and unless a constructive dialogue is begun things can get out of hand very quickly.
I have many many friends from Iran, with family still in Iran - I do not want to see a war which would destabilize the region for decades.
It is for that reason I take offense when the leadership in Iran - which has been on a radical path for some time now - refuses to engage in diplomacy which might diffuse tensions.
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ssamida
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Re: Iran's "preconditions"
February 12, 2009 - 10:50 AM
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poor lieberman
you seems to line in another planet where there is no history .
usa has done enough to be hatred for at least the next 2 or 3 Generations.that if its changes its politic right now.but it don't seem to happen .
all its governments are giving full support to Israel as the privileged state .why it is allowed to possess 200 nuclear bombs and iran can't even develop a civilian niclear activity.
maybe iran is not a democratic country so go yankees to democretize it just as you did with Irak alhabib .
you killed there 1.5 millions and 5 millions refugees.
stop this joke .all the world has discovered the hideous face of america.
who will wash it from the blood of the millions of innocents ?
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gzusbmine
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Re: Iran's "preconditions"
February 12, 2009 - 01:59 PM
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Fortunately not all Americans support the atrocities that the U.S. government has committed against the Iraqi people. Main Street Media won't tell you though.
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Alex Rhoden
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Re: Iran's "preconditions"
February 12, 2009 - 06:24 PM
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Look Luke, Israel has been allowed to develop it's own 200 nuclear warhead missles ( see Mordechai Vanunu ) as well as offensive chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Israel has a history of bombing it's neighbors to prevent them from developing their own defensive systems. In order for things to change, the U.S. will have to humble itself for once. Iran needs to tone down the sabre rattling rhetoric which is a bluff at best. Israel should stop using undue influence to control America's one sided foreign policy stance. Israel has the capability to destroy all of it's neighbors, with complete U.S. support. Everyone needs to compromise. You can take whatever ideological hardline stance you wish but we need compromise. Iran should be able to develop it's own nuclear power plants as well as weapons for it's own security. The world is running out of time. Valuable resources are being squandered while the planet is quickly becoming a toxic desert wasteland.
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Alex Rhoden
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Re: Iran's "preconditions"
February 20, 2009 - 06:01 PM
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illuminati wrote:
Look Luke, Israel has been allowed to develop it's own 200 nuclear warhead missles ( see Mordechai Vanunu ) as well as offensive chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Israel has a history of bombing it's neighbors to prevent them from developing their own defensive systems as well as nuclear power plants. To say that only israel should be allowed to build such a lethal arsenal is true hypocrisy. A fair balance of power is needed in order to keep everyone in check. In order for things to change, the U.S. will have to humble itself for once. Iran needs to tone down the sabre rattling rhetoric which is a bluff at best. Israel should stop using undue influence to control America's one sided foreign policy stance. Israel has the capability to destroy all of it's neighbors, with complete U.S. support. Everyone needs to compromise. You can take whatever ideological hardline stance you wish but we need compromise. Iran should be able to develop it's own nuclear power plants as well as weapons for it's own security. The world is running out of time. Valuable resources are being squandered while the planet is quickly becoming a toxic desert wasteland. No response?That is just what I expected from you Lieberman
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Iran's
February 20, 2009 - 07:10 PM
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Your such a drama queen Alex ; - )
I haven't posted more on this thread because talking to Ayman and Arslan is more interesting.
I'm glad you recognize Iran needs to soften their rhetoric - I would submit they need to change policies as well. If they want he US to change policies they should also be willing to change as well.
Israel has never done anything to Iran - really ever. They have no territorial disputes, there are no resources at stake. Israel has never attacked Iran.
The one who put the countries on a warpath is Ahmadinejad.
It is purely ideological.
"Israel has a history of bombing it's neighbors to prevent them from developing their own defensive systems"
To which defensive systems do you refer?
Syria's undisclosed nuclear site? Are we defining Nuclear arms as a a defensive system? Kind of a bizarre concept.
They provide deterrent, but a "defensive system" would be something like a missile defense system, radar, air defense etc.
ballistic missiles and nukes are offensive weapons by nature.
That is what Iran is building.
you yourself suggest they should be able to build a "lethal arsinal" - is that defensive?
"A fair balance of power is needed in order to keep everyone in check."
A nuclear Iran would upset the balance of power and create instability.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Iran's "preconditions"
February 20, 2009 - 07:12 PM
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"the U.S. will have to humble itself for once. Iran needs to tone down the sabre rattling rhetoric which is a bluff at best"
Why would it be a bluff? They are arming Hezbullah to the teeth - they are telling Hamas to reject compromise with the PLO. They even told Hamas not to agree to a ceasefire with the Israelis hoping they would score a few points.
"Israel should stop using undue influence to control America's one sided foreign policy stance."
Yeah, conspiracy theorists like you love the idea that the Israelis are like gods pulling all the strings in the world.
Most Americans side with the Israelis - poll after poll shows that.
"Everyone needs to compromise."
that is the first sensible thing you've said.
"You can take whatever ideological hardline stance you wish but we need compromise. Iran should be able to develop it's own nuclear power plants as well as weapons for it's own security."
So how is it exactly that you think Iran should compromise?
- besides "toning down the rhetoric" I have heard they ways you think the US and Israel should compromise.
Iran can have nuclear power - just not nuclear weapons - you try to conflate the two -
The IAEA came out as recently as last week saying that Iran is not cooperating.
As for "hypocracy" - there is nothing hypocritical about wanting your allies to have more arms then your enemies - that is natural and inevitable.
The US, Europe, Israel - don't want a nuclear Iran because it is completely hostile to their interests and values.
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Alex Rhoden
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Re: Iran's "preconditions"
February 21, 2009 - 04:56 PM
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Luke, Responses to your views...
" Are we defining Nuclear arms as a a defensive system? Kind of a bizarre concept."
Bizarre? Yes, but the possibility of mutual destruction would make both sides think twice before commiting acts of aggression. Israel would be less likely to intimidate and invade it's neighbors at will as is the case now.
"A nuclear Iran would upset the balance of power and create instability."
Balance? Right now there is no balance of power. Israel is the only military super power in the region. Israel has the offensive nuclear warheads and bio-chemical capabilities (with America's military and financial support). Because of this fact, Israel does not feel it needs to use diplomacy or reach any consensus in the region. Israel does not need to fear retaliation so it continues to commit attrocities against civilian populations and it's neighbors. A true balance of power and the possibility of retaliation would force israel to think before it bombs.
Israel should stop using undue influence to control America's one sided foreign policy stance.
"Yeah, conspiracy theorists like you love the idea that the Israelis are like gods pulling all the strings in the world"
I never said that, things are not so simplistic... You cannot deny the fact that the AIPAC lobby has excessive influence in America's electoral and legislative systems. The Harvard work paper on my TIG blog has numerous facts, statistics and footnotes all with referenced sources of information. You either have not read it or choose not to because the facts are irrefutable. .
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