The question of the Armenian genocide - Discussion Boards

Saladin

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Re: The question of the Armenian genocide
January 17, 2009 - 07:27 PM

Many people claim many things about that event..

Esra, if you have loads of eye-witnesses accounts, from Armenian survivors, from mass-graves with real bones and skulls of mass murdered Armenians in Syria (Margada and Deir al-Zur for example), a death toll of almost 1.5 million people, and from countless diplomatic reports and telegrams from Americans (Who were still neutral in WW I in 1915) and even Germans (who were allied with the Turks then), and put all of this into the context of the cabled instruction sent by the Turkish interior minister Talaat Pasha to his perfect in Aleppo, saying in his own words "You have already been informed that the Government…has decided to destroy completely all the indicated persons living in Turkey…There existence must be terminated, however tragic the measures taken may be, and no regard must be paid to either age or sex, or to any scruples of conscience"*, you will come to conclude that the Armenian Holocaust/Destruction/Genocide or whatever you may call it, was carefully planned and executed, and far from being deniable.

*Source Records of the Great War, Vol. III, ed. Charles F. Horne, National Alumni 1923

Saladin

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Re: The question of the Armenian genocide
January 17, 2009 - 07:32 PM

You said "Intellectuals(!) Of Turkey Apologize For Armenian Great Disaster" who are these intellectuals? Are they really intellectuals & expert on this issue? They have any proof about it as a genocide? We all know that there are many people who want to complicate & divide Turkey. Please let us search & read & think very well. There are some opinions from real historian & experts here:

http://www.armeniangenocidedebate.com/what-do-real-historians-and-experts-say

Esra, what do you mean exactly by "as genocide"? Are you denying that 1.5 million Armenians were killed by Ottoman Turks in 1915? Do you want to describe it as "massacres" rather than "genocide"? In other words, is the term "genocide" that is causing the problem, and not the fact that a race of people was being destroyed?

It wasn't me who said that they are Turkish "Intellectuals", it was Zaman, a Turkish newspaper.

Talking about evidence, we have mass graves scattered around Syria and Lebanon, with actual skeletons packed neatly beside each other in thousands, whether in Margada, Anjar, or Deir al-Zur. We have thrilling accounts from Armenian Holocaust survivors, and we have also the historical accounts of the Germans who used to either work on the Hijaz Railway, or who were military attaches in Turkey (If the accounts of British and American missionaries and diplomats are questioned).

Saladin

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Re: The question of the Armenian genocide
January 17, 2009 - 07:37 PM

Nevertheless, if we speak about historians and experts, I'd rather not to quote Armenian historian such Vahakn Dadrian, but I'll mention you this story of a Turkish historian: Taner Akcam: On the 3rd of February 2001, Akcam lectured the Turks on Turkish TV on the facts –the reality- of the 1915 Armenian Genocide, by saying "If you can't bring yourself to describe it as genocide, call it massacre if you want". He also added, "But it was a crime against humanity ….Ask forgiveness from the Armenian people and….make a commitment that in Turkey, political dissent and disagreement should no longer be treated as an offence". Further, he says, "Unless we distance ourselves from the perpetrators of this crime, which was a genocide (Soykırım), we will never be able to relieve ourselves of this terrible burden". Nevertheless, Akcam said, "The constant refrain of "We are not guilty", and the parallel blaming of the Armenians, the victims, very much hurts the cause of Turkey", before quoting Mustafakemal Ataturk himself stating on April 23rd 1920 that "the Armenian massacres" were a "shameful act".

I want to say that Turkish people have never done what Israil people are doing now..

Well, of course it was not the Turkish nation who committed the Armenian genocide, it was the Community of Union and Progress and its army. Lots of Turkish people helped thousands of Armenians to hide from the military, including the brave governor of Aleppo Celal Pasha. But numbers are quite similar in both cases: only in 1915, 1.5 million Armenians were killed, hundreds of thousands were deported, and equal numbers orphaned or severely wounded. In the case of Israel, after over 60 years, there are 5 million Palestinian refugees, and the number of Palestinians who were killed by either the IDF, or the armed settlers, or under Israeli supervision (e.g. the Sabra and Shatila massacres) is in the order of tens of thousands.

Saladin

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Re: The question of the Armenian genocide
January 17, 2009 - 07:39 PM

Please dont compare with Turks & Israeli.. These lands where Israel was located belongs to Palestine. Israel bought & divided Palestine lands, and now want to have all Palestine and more.. We Turks have a heart, our soldiers never kill a baby & innocent people. Its clear that Turkey has a responsibility & efford more than EU countries, UN, USA(War supporter) and some Arab countries on Gaza... I wish we all have been one heart for Gaza. We need to save humanity.. innocent people...

Of course what's happening in Gaza is barbarous, but in 1915, the Turkish army killed and raped Armenian women and children. So sad to say it, but as the Turkish columnist Ertugrul Ozkok wrote in Hurriyet newspaper on the same day of Akcam's TV debate, that the perpetrators of the Armenian genocide were:
"our Pol Pots, Berias, and Stalins, and the sooner we call them crimes to account,…the better are the chances of redeeming ourselves from this scourge of being accused of genocide".

Akcam and Ozkok were not alone in that pursuit, for after three years of expressing their views regarding the Armenian genocide, more than 500 Turkish "intellectuals" (University teachers, writers, authors, and human rights officials) protested against a new school curriculum emphasizing the "unfounded allegations of the Armenians".

esra

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Re: The question of the Armenian
January 21, 2009 - 07:04 PM

When I hear about a result of event, I want to know what it is the reason. I tried to search from different resources (from Armenian and Turkish)to think objecively about the topic. I read from Armenian resources( they havent got any archieve, when Turkish prime minister, Recep Tayyib Erdoğan wanted to share our archieves with Armenian, they didnt accept) http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/8033/turkish-pm-erdogan-turkey-is-not-afraid-of-history.html
Armenians say: about 2 million Armenian people were living in Ottoman Empire, someone says more than 2 million and more than 1,5 million people died or were killed (taken from west resources) , but how can external countries know our population correctly ? is it meaningful?
When I searched Ottoman archieves about Armenians(its open to all)http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/ , its written population of Armenian in Ottomans: In 1914: 1,294,851 http://www.armeniangenocidedebate.com/archives
First of all, we are humanbeing, even if we have different religions, nations, race. We are not in war now, we cant know real face of a war. Maybe 800.000 Armenian people, maybe 1,5 million people died and were killed. Because, some of these people died because of hunger and illness. No doubt conditions of War were so hard for all Ottomans, not only for Armenians. Many Ottoman soldiers went and never came back to home, one of them was my grand father’s grand father…( Gallipoli War) Even some Ottoman women went to WWI.

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January 21, 2009 - 07:10 PM

Let us think that its not Ottoman Empire: Because I feel that some people have prejudice about Ottoman Empire and it prevents events to be thought objectively. X Empire which had lived more than 600 years in a huge land, had magnificent time for ages, then came to a standstill, then fall down.. This X Empire was formed by Turks(mostly), Arabs, Kurds, these are Muslim part and other part called minority groups (Christian and Jewish people) and all these people had brotherly lived for ages together in peace under X Empire. If any empire has a multinational structure and if external powers leave seed of nationalism and if this empire has already been weak, it clear that what will happen… In this X Empire(mostly Muslim people) there is a small nation (Cristian) that had lived under other nations or empires for ages. This nation had been faithful to this empire and lived in peace for ages untill final years of X Empire. Then these faithful(!) people believe game of external powers (mostly Cristians) that want to divide X Empire. X Empire is “ a patient-sick man” for external powers. External powers occupy X Empire from 4 side, east-west-north-south. X Empire sends all soldiers front line to fight external powers. Then X Empire start losing own people because of war, also hunger and illnesses… its a big opportunity for external power, because most of soldiers go to borders to fight and if external powers trick & stir up this small faithful nation to build their own nation, they will have all lands of X Empire. But, aim of external powers is to provide X Empire soldiers to come center of X Empire from borders. Otherwise these small nation is nothing for external powers. Unfortunately these faithful nation is just a part of strategic game. So rebellion begins into X Empire. This small nation is unfaithul anymore. X Empire soldiers is to fight external powers, they cant fight this small nation, the best thing is to send from center of Empire. But result of this event will be so painful for small nation. Unfortunately most of people die or are killed because of conditions of the war, hunger, rebellion and illness...

esra

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Re: The question of the Armenian genocide
January 21, 2009 - 07:11 PM

Now, let us put ourselves instead of X-Empire. what could be the best thing to do? To wait external powers to have X Empire ? or what?

I think the story replies your this question “Am I seeing victims turned into "ungrateful" people, and aggressors turned into victims?”

esra

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January 21, 2009 - 07:21 PM

Ayman wrote:
1915 is not that far; my grandfather was 4 years old; the same age of thousands of Armenian children who where killed or orphaned by the Turkish army. Thanks God he was not an Armenian living in the Ottoman Empire at that time, my very presence wouldn't have been possible. At the end, it's God who decides it.

Ayman, I really wonder so much where you learned the history and how did your teachers teach you Ottomans? I feel that you hate Ottomans or Turkish from your these words, please don’t forget you are a Muslim and you have same history. Ottomans always tried to protect Muslims, Islam Laws and always treated fair people from other religions. Muslims had lived in peace and together for ages. Arabs, Turks, Kurds, no difference between us untill Ottomans fall down. Arabs, Turks, Kurds fighted together against enemy.
http://todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=164489

Im asking people now: Why don’t Muslims’ tears stop nowadays?

Everything happenes for a reason. Btw, in 1915’s most of Armanians were living east of Turkey, when they rebel Ottomans, they killed Ottoman Kurds (Kurdish people still lives east of Turkey).

esra

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Re: The question of the Armenian genocide
January 21, 2009 - 07:27 PM

Ayman wrote:
“in 1915, the Turkish army killed and raped Armenian women and children.”
Who said that? Where is written? Do you believe whatever you read or hear?
I read and learned “Many Armenians killed Ottoman Muslims and raped women.” But without seeing with my eyes I never believe its true or not.
Which one is true? Just Allah knows..

Also, if we look at past, we will see always people called “intellectual(!)” prapared end of nations.
If you stil want to compare with Ottoman and Israil:
Past / Today
Ottoman Empire= Palestine (They had their own lands and wanted to protect their people&lands)
Armenians(rebel who wanted to divide Ottomans)=Israili (...who killed Palestinians & took the land)

Saladin

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Re: The question of the Armenian genocide
January 28, 2009 - 11:37 AM

Esra, you're speaking as if I had got my information from Armenian sources; but the opposite is true: I got everything from Turkish sources.

I'll get back to you to share with you my reflections on what you came up with.

Regards.

This post was edited on: 2009-01-28 at 11:39 AM by: aymanelhakea

Arslan Jumaniyazov

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Re: The question of the Armenian genocide
February 13, 2009 - 03:29 AM

Very interesting discussion. I'll be quick at this time. Esra, I don't see anything in Ayman's posts suggesting that he hates Ottomans or Turks. I'd suggest you stick to the substance of the debate. He is charging the Ittihat ve Terakki Party rather than the traditional Ottoman Empire which crumbled at least as early as 1908. Knowing Ayman, I can assure you that he has no ill feelings against Turks. :-)

Arslan

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esra

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armenians...
February 13, 2009 - 05:00 PM

Arslanik wrote:

Very interesting discussion. I'll be quick at this time. Esra, I don't see anything in Ayman's posts suggesting that he hates Ottomans or Turks. I'd suggest you stick to the substance of the debate. He is charging the Ittihat ve Terakki Party rather than the traditional Ottoman Empire which crumbled at least as early as 1908. Knowing Ayman, I can assure you that he has no ill feelings against Turks. :-)

Arslan

Arslan thanks for joining discussion, I like & respect Ayman's debates but Ayman generally talked about Ottoman Turks & Turkish army(included civilian Turkish people). That's why I felt like this. Ottomans mean lot for me, even if there is no Ottoman Empire now. He gave an example from his grandfather. What about my grandfather's grandfather? He was a civilian, but went for fighting against enemy & had been a martry during Gallipoli War by enemy. Also many Arab and Kurdish people together with Turks fought against enemy. These lands belong to all of us, we are martry's sons.
Ittihat ve Terakki Party(Jön Türkler-young Turks) were "intellectuals(!)" who I talked about above. They were one of groups that prepared Ottoman's end. We are still paying their faults. Ok Im also sad for many innocent Armenian people died & were killed during tehcir. But I am not apologizing for Armenian rebellious who killed many Turks. I just want people to know Ottoman Armenians were not an angel. I watched a new documentary about Battle of Maraş, 90-100 aged grandparents(survivors) were talking about how they suffered because of Armenians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mara%C5%9F
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Armenian_Legion

While reading something about Armenian Legion, I found this:
" Nazi perspective

Nazi Germany's leader at the time, Adolf Hitler, expressed his doubts on the Armenian and other Soviet battalions. "Speaking about military units from Soviet peoples, Hitler said: 'I don't know about these Georgians. They do not belong to the Turkic peoples... I consider only the Muslims to be reliable... All others I deem unreliable. For the time being I consider the formation of these battalions of purely Caucasian peoples very risky, while I don't see any danger in the establishment of purely Muslim units... In spite of all declarations from Rosenberg and the military, I don't trust the Armenians either.'"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenische_Legion
P.S. : It doesn't mean I like Nazi Germany smile

esra

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armenians...
February 13, 2009 - 05:10 PM

A new news smile

"Armenian intellectuals are preparing to launch a campaign to apologize for the killings of Turks by Armenian gangs and the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia (ASALA) during the final years of the Ottoman Empire."

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=165741