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Saladin

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Re: What if Israel were not in Palestine?
January 10, 2009 - 04:54 PM

Alejandro,

In 1897, Basel, Switzerland, the First Zionist Congress was held. That was a way well before the establishment of the League of Nations. One of the most crucial parts of that conference's agenda was the discussion of the location of the Jewsih National Homeland; Uganda, Argentina, or Palestine? At the end, Palestine was chosen due to its religious and historical bond with the Jewish people.

Now, your are asking about the fate of Arab-Jewish relations in a situation whereby Israel would have been founded in Uganda or Argentina.

If you would recall, in a recent discussion about the Arab-Israeli conflict, I mentioned that the enmity expressed by Arabs is against Zionism, and not Judaism. As such, it would be fair to conclude that no Arab-Zionist enmity would have existed had Israel been not established in Palestine.

However, if the establishment of a Jewish national homeland in Uganda or Argentina would have been on the expense of the local population, -as in the case of Palestine- I would have had serious criticism regarding that.

Another important question: Why was there a persistent need to establish a Jewish national homeland, for Jews who used to live in Germany, Poland, Russia, Ukraine, Argentina, Ethiopia and Morocco, by transfering them to the Middle East from other continents, and there was absolutely no attempt to establish a national homeland for Armenians and Kurds, who themselves suffered from large-scale and systematic genocide under the Turks and the Iraqi Baath, respectively, taking into account that the establishment of a Kurdish national homeland will not displace any indigenous population: Kurds are there, in Kurdistan..

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alejandro canton-dutari

连接： Oct 21, 2008
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性别和年龄：男性, 65
国家：Panama
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Re: What if Israel were not in Palestine?
January 10, 2009 - 09:50 PM

I agree with most of your considerations, especially when you mention establishing a State upon the displacement of others.
Perhaps my question of "what if...." is futile.
And about the Zionist vs. Jewish issue, the trouble is that most people do not differentiate this issue, which adds more confusion to an already confusing state of affairs.

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Alex Rhoden

连接： Oct 23, 2002
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Re: What if Israel were not in Palestine?
January 11, 2009 - 12:21 PM

I agree with you Alejandro, Your question of "What If" is...Futile. Many innocent Palestinians are dying because of "What is". The majority of the world has voiced its horror, through United Nations condemnation of Israel's illegal occupation and numerous human rights attrocities. The United States consistently uses it's vote to block U.N. resolutions against Israel. Check out the DvD called "Palestine,the issues". Also closer to home, watch the "Panama Deception" on DvD to learn the untold truth about the U.S.shameful role in Panama. Luv your shirt!

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alejandro canton-dutari

连接： Oct 21, 2008
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Re: What if Israel were not in Palestine?
January 11, 2009 - 03:58 PM

Thanks for the shirt compliment, Alex.
And, yes, I lived the Panama deception as I am a resident of such country.
But I think that it would take more than the U.S. cooperation to stop the permanent dent in the heart of both Israelis and Palestinians.

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esra

连接： Jun 30, 2006
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性别和年龄：女性, 25
国家：Turkey
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Re: What if Israel were not in Palestine?
January 12, 2009 - 08:54 AM

aymanelhakea wrote:

Alejandro,

Another important question: Why was there a persistent need to establish a Jewish national homeland, for Jews who used to live in Germany, Poland, Russia, Ukraine, Argentina, Ethiopia and Morocco, by transfering them to the Middle East from other continents, and there was absolutely no attempt to establish a national homeland for Armenians and Kurds, who themselves suffered from large-scale and systematic genocide under the Turks and the Iraqi Baath, respectively, taking into account that the establishment of a Kurdish national homeland will not displace any indigenous population: Kurds are there, in Kurdistan..

Dear Ayman,
Nobady has a right to compare with Turks and Israel. We Turks have never been a baby killer, we just protected our people & lands. (Age of Ottoman Empire), We Turks had brotherly lived these same lands for ages with Armenians & Kurds & Arabs.. and we have still lived with them..We are brothers. Why someone always want to divide us? Ottoman Empire had lived in peace for ages with Cristians & Jewish into borders. if you objectively search & read more about history, you will understand it better.

Also, can you explain me where Kurdistan is? borders of Kurdistan? Many Kurds live here, but here is Turkey, not Kurdistan!

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Saladin

连接： Oct 1, 2002
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Re: What if Israel were not in Palestine?
January 12, 2009 - 10:51 AM

Esra, when Hitler killed 6 million Jews in the 1930s-1940s, this was described as the Jewish "Holocaust". The first use of the term "Holocaust", however, was in a speech by Winston Churchill in 1915, as a descritption of the mass killings and deportations committed by the Ottoman Armies against the Armenian population, costing 1.5 million lives.

It is crucial to state that lots of Turkish citizens harbored Armenians in their homes, and protected them from death. However, the Turkish Army under the command of Talaat Bey and Enver Pasha was responsible for the Armenian Holocaust.

I'll quote you an interesting article about Turkish intellectuals apologizing to Armenians for "The Great Disaster of 1915", in their own words:

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Saladin

连接： Oct 1, 2002
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Re: What if Israel were not in Palestine?
January 12, 2009 - 10:51 AM

Intellectuals Of Turkey Apologize For Armenian Great Disaster

In an unprecedented gesture, a group of Turkish intellectuals have publicly apologized for what they called a “great disaster” that befell the Ottoman Empire’s Armenian minority and urged their compatriots to follow suit.

“I cannot conscientiously accept the indifference to the great disaster that Ottoman Armenians suffered in 1915, and its denial. I reject this injustice and acting of my own will, I share the feelings and pains of my Armenian brothers and sisters, and I apologize to them,” reads a petition signed by them and published by the “Zaman” daily on Friday.

The newspaper said the signatories will ask other intellectuals and ordinary Turks alike to sign the petition. “We are searching for human beings,” one of them, scholar Baskin Oran, was quoted as saying. “We thought about urging the state to apologize but we decided to let individuals act according to their conscience. This call is for everybody.”

According to “Zaman,” some Turkish civil society representatives were quick to object to the campaign. “For me, all these events [of 1915] were the fault of Turkish nationalism flourishing at that time, and personally I don’t identify with it,” historian Ayse Hur told the paper. “So I do not feel the need to apologize personally.”

Another intellectual, Aytekin Yildiz, pointed to the signatories’ failure to describe as “genocide” the deaths of an estimated 1.5 million Armenians during the final years of the Ottoman Empire. “What do they mean by ‘great disaster’?” he said. “Let’s face it, it was genocide.”

The Turkish state vehemently denies that the Armenian massacres, a taboo subject until recently, constituted a genocide. It insists that Ottoman Armenians died in much smaller numbers as a result of civil strife, rather than a premeditated government policy.

The official version of events is increasingly questioned by independent Turkish scholars and other intellectuals, even if few of them publicly use the word genocide in reference to the mass killings and deporations. Dozens of them gathered at a private Istanbul university in 2005 for a landmark conference that sparked angry protests from Turkish nationalist groups.

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alejandro canton-dutari

连接： Oct 21, 2008
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Re: What if Israel were not in Palestine?
January 12, 2009 - 11:06 AM

Esra and Ayman:
I think that the term "genocide" applies to both situations, both to the Kurds and to the Jews. Just go by the original definition, which centers around the "elimination of a group of humans due to their race.... and culture."
What seems to happen is that many politicians and historians decide to diminish the atrocity by using less accurate descriptions.
But, I am still concerned about the "displacement".
When the US established their "mini-state" in Panamanian territory during almost 100 years right smack in the middle of our isthmus, we were displaced and even had to drive through "our land" with a special US Canal Zone drivers license... They didn't like us, and we hated the situation. But it was the price our initial politicians paid for having the Panama Canal constructed and independence from Colombia guaranteed....
And we also had a similar situation among our youth.... the worst "war" -- yes it was declared practically declared by our government -- started when a group of US-zonian high school kids burned a Panamanian flag in their school ground, which was seen by their homonyms across the street... The end, dead kids, dead adults... and permanent resentment.
It sort of gives you a hit on the head as far as confidence in our brotherly love.

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esra

连接： Jun 30, 2006
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Re: What if Israel were not in Palestine?
January 12, 2009 - 02:41 PM

Ayman, we are talking about 1915, World War I (WWI), All nations, religions were wanting to divide Ottoman Empire. Unfortunately they achieved too.. One of these nations was Armenians. Armanians had lived with us for ages in peace, but they showed their real face in WWI. They were Ottomans, but killing many Turkish people. Armenians were really so ungrateful. its a very very long story.. Many people claim many things about that event.. You said "Intellectuals(!) Of Turkey Apologize For Armenian Great Disaster" who are these intellectuals? Are they really intellectuals & expert on this issue? They have any proof about it as a genocide? We all know that there are many people who want to complicate & divide Turkey. Please let us search & read & think very well. There are some opinions from real historian & experts here:

http://www.armeniangenocidedebate.com/what-do-real-historians-and-experts-say

I want to say that Turkish people have never done what Israil people are doing now..

Please dont compare with Turks & Israeli.. These lands where Israel was located belongs to Palestine. Israel bought & divided Palestine lands, and now want to have all Palestine and more.. We Turks have a heart, our soldiers never kill a baby & innocent people. Its clear that Turkey has a responsibility & efford more than EU countries, UN, USA(War supporter) and some Arab countries on Gaza... I wish we all have been one heart for Gaza. We need to save humanity.. innocent people...

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Saladin

连接： Oct 1, 2002
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Re: What if Israel were not in Palestine?
January 17, 2009 - 05:57 PM

I think we might need to discuss that issue on another thread, knowing that it need to be discussed in depth.

This post was edited on: 2009-01-17 at 07:24 PM by: aymanelhakea

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