« 回到论坛
版主：
Liamjod, mekhala
 作者 |
 发布
|
 |
|
alejandro canton-dutari
连接： Oct 21, 2008
邮件 10
帖子等级
说话温和
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 男性, 65
国家：Panama
Province/State: Panama
城市: Panamá
|
Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 11, 2009 - 04:15 PM
|
|
Well, there is one very positive outcome of this discussion: The amount of history that you are sharing is relevant.
But, on the other hand, I ask myself if anything can be done so that the events that are taking place will improve the history of these two extraordinary cultures and its people.
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Alex Rhoden
连接： Oct 23, 2002
邮件 14
帖子等级
说话温和
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 男性, 53
国家：United States
Province/State: Illinois
城市: Bloomington
|
Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 11, 2009 - 08:48 PM
|
|
Thank You Ayman for your outstanding and intelligently worded postings. If only the mainstream media would allow you to write an editorial piece. I believe the masses need more educating on this topic.
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
邮件 156
帖子等级
喋喋不休
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 男性, 30
国家：United States
Province/State: California
|
Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 12, 2009 - 01:03 PM
|
|
Look at that - and here I thought Alex had a fundamental issue with long multiple postings - and here it turns out, hypocritically, that he only makes the length of posts an issue when he can't handle what they say.
Now - to the debate.
First, the attempt to cast this as a conflict between arabs and 'zionists' is disingenuous - any such distinction is completely lost on the arab street, many of whome simply hate 'the jews'
As I said before, the distinction was lost on Arab governments too when they expelled hundreds of thousands of Jews on charges of 'zionism'
Hamas' charter never mentions 'zionism' at all - it talks about killing 'the Jews'
From a jewish perspective - Ayman - there were a group of Jews who went to Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial conference too - they did not represent any significant segment of the population.
"anti-zionism" is not a serious movement within the jewish world - this is just a fact. A few token Jews from splinter groups do not change the fact that 90-95% of Jews on earth believe in Israel's right to exist. More then half the Jews on earth live IN Israel.
The small Hassidic movement that argue from the Torah against Israel basically want Israel but think it is not time yet, they are waiting for the messiah.
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
邮件 156
帖子等级
喋喋不休
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 男性, 30
国家：United States
Province/State: California
|
Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 12, 2009 - 01:03 PM
|
|
"where they living peacefully before the establishment of that state? The answer is YES."
Sometimes and in some places, but everywhere they were Dhimmi - an institutionalized second class citizenship. And violence against Jews in the Muslim world started in the 20's with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and riots against the Jews.
it rose in the 30's due to German influence - the Baath party was created by the Germans as a national socialist party. The Germans were supporting every insurgency in the middles east against the English and French colonial powers.
The Farhud was in 1941.
As to the exchange of populations - Palestinian/Jewish - I would submit to you that much of the Palestinian suffering could have been averted if Arab regiemes had attempted to assimilate refugees and offered a path to citizenship - as Israel absorbed and made citizens of Jewish refugees.
"Luke, Arab Palestinians make 20% of the number of Israeli citizens"
Indeed - and of course the Israelis are concerned with the different birth rate - and naturally that is an issue regarding the return of hundreds of thousands of Palestnians - that is another reason the Israelis will never agree to it.
But security concerns are real and a consideration as well.
"why would they do so if you grant them the right of return? Any idea?"
sure - because they do not want to be ruled by a Jewish majority government, or for revenge, or on religious grounds, or just because the Jews are vulnerable and they want to drive them all out of the region.
Why do suicide bombers go off in Iraq all the time? Because warring factions with religious and political disagreements want to attack each other.
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Saladin
连接： Oct 1, 2002
邮件 34
帖子等级
爱说话的
用户是：
下线
 虚拟义务工作者:
性别和年龄： 男性, 25
国家：United Kingdom
Province/State: Redbridge
城市: Ilford
|
Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 13, 2009 - 07:33 PM
|
|
First, the attempt to cast this as a conflict between arabs and 'zionists' is disingenuous - any such distinction is completely lost on the arab street, many of whome simply hate 'the jews'
Luke, "many" Arabs "simply hating" "the Jews" is rather subjective as opposed to a figure driven from a poll or from some concrete evidence. Most Arabs are Muslim, and Muslim believe that Jews are "People of the Book" with whom Prophet Muhammad (s) signed a Pact stating that "Muslim and Jews of Medina are a Single Ummah" or in other words "A single Nation".
Speaking about the "Arab Street", I'll convey to you a closer look, having spent myself 24 years there: I attended Friday sermons in Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Morocco, England, Serbia, Turkey, Tunisia, and Saudi Arabia; Preachers always use the Arabic term "al-Sahayinatul Mu'tadin" or the "Zionist Aggressors". Even the most radical Islamist factions, such as Hamas and Hizbullah, they use the term "The Zionist Entity" to refer of Israel, rather than "The Jewish State".
In Tunisia, and in Morocco, Jews make up the majority of the population of towns like Djerba and Essaouira, and their capital investments and developmental projects are vital to the economies of their respective countries, and people do not hate them, because they had chosen not to be part of the Zionist plan.
As I said before, the distinction was lost on Arab governments too when they expelled hundreds of thousands of Jews on charges of 'zionism'
Hamas' charter never mentions 'zionism' at all - it talks about killing 'the Jews'
Hamas uses the term "The Zionist Entity" instead of the "Jewish State" to mean "Israel".
Meanwhile, without those thousands of Jews who were expelled from the Arab countries, Jewish people would have never been the demographic majority in Palestine on the eve of the UN Partition declaration in 1948. Even if the Arab governments would have granted them the right to return, with equal citizenship rights, the Zionist movement would not have allowed them to go back: They could not just afford to risk the Jewish Identity of Israel by losing 250,000 Jewish residents. This is a fact as clear as the sun.
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Saladin
连接： Oct 1, 2002
邮件 34
帖子等级
爱说话的
用户是：
下线
虚拟义务工作者:
性别和年龄： 男性, 25
国家：United Kingdom
Province/State: Redbridge
城市: Ilford
|
Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 13, 2009 - 07:38 PM
|
|
From a jewish perspective - Ayman - there were a group of Jews who went to Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial conference too - they did not represent any significant segment of the population.
Look Luke, personally, I cannot deny the Holocaust, and I do not think that those Jews who went to that conference were denying that the Holocaust existed. They were rather against the commercializing of the Holocaust to justify the establishment of a Jewish State through the demographic transfer of the inhabitants of Palestine.
"anti-zionism" is not a serious movement within the jewish world - this is just a fact. A few token Jews from splinter groups do not change the fact that 90-95% of Jews on earth believe in Israel's right to exist. More then half the Jews on earth live IN Israel.
Luke, according to the 2009 statistics of the European Jewish Congress:
There are 5.55 million Jews in Israel and 7.75 million in the Diaspora, meaning 41.3 percent of World Jewry now resides in the Jewish state.
The United States is next, with 5.3 million Jews, or 39.8%, then France with 490,000, Canada with 375,000, Britain with 295,000, Russia with 215,000 (340,000 in the entire FSU), Argentina with 183,000, Germany with 120,000, Australia with 107,000 and Brazil with 96,000.
Also:
There are about 1.5 million people in North America who are either Jews married to a non-Jew or are the offspring of a mixed Jewish-non-Jewish couple. According to the Jewish Agency, this is proof that assimilation is growing.
Bielski said the agency would "step up its efforts to provide Jewish education in Diaspora communities and to strengthen the Jewish identity of the new generation and tighten the ties between Israel and the Diaspora."
Other data released by the agency : There is one Jew living in Afghanistan, 95 countries have 100 or more Jews, there are 11 million people living in the US who are eligible for automatic citizenship under the Law of Return, and another million in the FSU.
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Saladin
连接： Oct 1, 2002
邮件 34
帖子等级
爱说话的
用户是：
下线
虚拟义务工作者:
性别和年龄： 男性, 25
国家：United Kingdom
Province/State: Redbridge
城市: Ilford
|
Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 13, 2009 - 07:47 PM
|
|
41.3 % is hardly "more than half the Jews on Earth". According to the European Jewish Congress, 58.7 % of Jews on Earth do not live in Israel (Including the West Bank and the occupied Golan Heights). But according to the UNSC resolutions, and to the Geneva Conventions, the West Bank and the Golan Heights should not be considered Israeli territories:
Israeli settlers living illegally in these areas should be subtracted from the 41.3 % and added to the 58.7 %. Furthermore, just add those 11 million people living in the US who are eligible for "Automatic Citizenship under the Law of Return":
If you consider the 5.3 Jews living in the US as a part of those 11 million, this means that you should add 5.7 million Jews living outside Israel, let alone if those 11 million do not include the official Jewish population of the US…Take into account the number of people who are eligible for "automatic" citizenship allover the globe, including those 1 million in the Former Soviet Union….This only further shrinks the actual Jewish population living in the State of Israel as opposed to the world's Jewish population.
If 90-95% of the World's Jewish population are staunchly determined to their right to have their own state established in Palestine, why are most of those same people preferring not to "return" to the Promised Land -including yourself, Luke-? Is it because Jews are better off outside Israel? Or it is because Israel is not a safer place compared to the US, Canada, France, or the UK? Or maybe for other reasons?
The small Hassidic movement that argue from the Torah against Israel basically want Israel but think it is not time yet, they are waiting for the messiah.
Uri Avnery and Noam Chomsky are both prominent Jewish authors and thinkers with an incomparably wider echo than those Messianic groups. Amira Hass, the brave journalist of Haaretz Israeli newspaper, is on the same line. They are all rather secular than religious, they do not believe in the Messiah, and even if they might consider the right of Israel to exist, they still have serious concerns about that "right" being built upon a historically undeniable demographic transfer of an indigenous population from a land they legally owned by Ottoman and British Mandate decrees, and where their ancestors and grand-ancestors are buried.
This post was edited on: 2009-01-16 at 12:20 PM by: aymanelhakea
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Saladin
连接： Oct 1, 2002
邮件 34
帖子等级
爱说话的
用户是：
下线
虚拟义务工作者:
性别和年龄： 男性, 25
国家：United Kingdom
Province/State: Redbridge
城市: Ilford
|
Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 13, 2009 - 07:52 PM
|
|
The question that I am really looking forward to hearing the answer from you is as follows: Was or was not Israel established through the demographical transfer of an indigenous population?
where they living peacefully before the establishment of that state? The answer is YES."
Sometimes and in some places, but everywhere they were Dhimmi - an institutionalized second class citizenship. And violence against Jews in the Muslim world started in the 20's with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and riots against the Jews.
it rose in the 30's due to German influence - the Baath party was created by the Germans as a national socialist party. The Germans were supporting every insurgency in the middles east against the English and French colonial powers.
Back in the 13th century, a Dhimmi –a second class citizen, probably- , named Moses Maimonedes, who happens to be a prominent Jewish theologian, was appointed as the Qadi (Chief of Government) of Muslim Cordoba. Now, only in 2007 did Israel appoint its first ever Arab Muslim Minister Ghaleb Majadele, as a Minister of Science, Culture, and Sport "without portfolio". Cordoba's Dhimmis back in the 13th century appeared to even enjoy more political representation and freedom of worship as opposed to Israel's Muslims in the 21st century.
The word Dhimmi ceased to exist in the modern history of the Middle East at the point where Mehmet Ali Pasha, the Governor of Egypt from 1805 to 1848 abolished non-Muslim from paying the military-exemption tax and made it mandatory for them to join the army.
Mehmet Ali at his widest expansions was able to rule Egypt, Syria, Palestine, the Levant, Sudan, and most of Anatolia. His reforms extended to the Ottoman Empire who began to form the Millet system, by which religious minorities exerted a great deal of self-autonomy, until the Islamic Caliphate was officially ended by Mustafakemal Ataturk in 1924, well before the establishment of the State of Israel.
It is true that the Germans were supporting "every insurgency" against the British Rule, but also the Brits were supporting the Sanusi insurgency in Libya (With their famous leader 'Umar al-Mukhtar) accross the Egyptian broders, against the Italians: The Sanusis were religious Muslims, and not Baathist Arab nationalists. Needless to speak about the British role in the Arab Revolt against the Ottoman Empire-Germany's principal ally in WWI-.
This post was edited on: 2009-01-17 at 01:56 PM by: aymanelhakea
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Saladin
连接： Oct 1, 2002
邮件 34
帖子等级
爱说话的
用户是：
下线
虚拟义务工作者:
性别和年龄： 男性, 25
国家：United Kingdom
Province/State: Redbridge
城市: Ilford
|
Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 13, 2009 - 07:57 PM
|
|
In that sense, do you mean that it's OK for Brits to use Arabs against Germans, but it's not OK for Germans to do exactly the same thing? Why is it a problem only in the latter case?
The big issue of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was not in his loud speeches during the 1920 Jerusalem riots; it was in the late 1930s and the beginning of the 1940s, during the same time where the Jewish Agency expressed the same exact goals as the Nazis: To get the Jews out of Germany, and agreed with the Nazis to facilitate the demographic transfer of German Jews to Palestine, in exchange for receiving Nazi exports at new markets represented in the Jewish colonies in Palestine! Their people were being destroyed in Auchwitz, Dachau, and Treblinka, and they were offering the Nazis with a new market for their agricultural and industrial products in Palestine. It is quite hypocritical that the same people who blame the Baath party and Amin al-Hussayni are the same ones who had signed the Haavara Agreement, by which they were committed to afford Nazi Germany a new market in Palestine for its exports during the peak of the Jewish Holocaust.
As to the exchange of populations - Palestinian/Jewish - I would submit to you that much of the Palestinian suffering could have been averted if Arab regiemes had attempted to assimilate refugees and offered a path to citizenship - as Israel absorbed and made citizens of Jewish refugees.
So that's it? The Irgun Zvai Leumi, the Kakh, the Stern Gang, and the Jewish Haganah did not have any responsibility or any role from the early 1930s to 1948, as per the forced migration of 750,000 of the local population of Palestine?
The only party to blame are Arab regimes failing to assimilate those 750,000 Palestinian refugees? The Massacre of Deir Yassin (Coinciding on the Holocaust Memorial Day) did not exist, and did not have any devastating effect at all....?
This post was edited on: 2009-01-17 at 02:04 PM by: aymanelhakea
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Saladin
连接： Oct 1, 2002
邮件 34
帖子等级
爱说话的
用户是：
下线
虚拟义务工作者:
性别和年龄： 男性, 25
国家：United Kingdom
Province/State: Redbridge
城市: Ilford
|
Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 13, 2009 - 08:01 PM
|
|
The Zionists wanted Palestine as a national homeland for the World's Jews, they did not shy away from signing treaties with Hitler supporting his policies to make life for Jews impossible in Germany, and to offer him another place to get rid of them through demographic transfer: Palestine, in exchange for receiving Nazi goods and products (The Haavara Agreement). They made plots to spread fear among Egyptian Jews through terror attacks, in the hopes that Egyptian nationalist movements would be blamed instead, so that the Egyptian Jewry would see how living in Israel is a better solution (The Lavon Affair). They are essential participants in the Jewish exodus from Egypt and other Middle Eastern countries, and they achieved their end very effectively.
In that sense, it was not that hard task to accommodate 300,000 Jewish refugees from Arab countries in the empty houses and lands left by the 750,000 Palestinians who had left their country in horror. The Israelis would have been ready to receive even all of the world's Jewish population in Palestine; just 250,000 or 300,000 refugees were other welcomed 'Aliyahs, consolidating the existence of Israel: It was an unintentional gift from Arab regimes to the Zionist Movement, unlike the 750,000 Palestinian refugees and their descendants who are scattered in Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria, and who make a total number of almost 5 million people today in 2009.
This post was edited on: 2009-01-16 at 12:16 PM by: aymanelhakea
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Saladin
连接： Oct 1, 2002
邮件 34
帖子等级
爱说话的
用户是：
下线
虚拟义务工作者:
性别和年龄： 男性, 25
国家：United Kingdom
Province/State: Redbridge
城市: Ilford
|
Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 13, 2009 - 08:09 PM
|
|
"Luke, Arab Palestinians make 20% of the number of Israeli citizens"
Indeed - and of course the Israelis are concerned with the different birth rate - and naturally that is an issue regarding the return of hundreds of thousands of Palestnians - that is another reason the Israelis will never agree to it.
First, back to my initial question:
Being the alleged "Oasis of Democracy" in the Middle East:
Is Israel a dsiclosed country for Jews, or for all of its citizens?
Why would Israel's Jews be worried if at some point the number of Israel's Arabs would exceed them?
In the mean time, taking into account that there are no "Jewish Refugees" today, will Israel be ready to –at least- offer reparations for the lands and properties of those "750,000 Palestinian Refugees", where most of whom still possess or inherit legal ownership deeds dating back from the Ottoman era and the British Mandate? Will Israel issue any sort of even verbal apology to the 5 million refugees who are only suffering because of the way with which Israel was founded?
Will Israel allow the 250,000 Jews of Baghdad and their descendants to return to Iraq, and leave Israel, in a situation where Iraqis grant them that right, in light of the recent concerns regarding the Jewish Identity of Israel?
"why would they do so if you grant them the right of return? Any idea?"
sure - because they do not want to be ruled by a Jewish majority government, or for revenge, or on religious grounds, or just because the Jews are vulnerable and they want to drive them all out of the region.
Obviously the 1.2 million Arabs living inside Israel did not go for that choice…but the existence of hatred is quite undeniable. At that point, let's concern ourselves with my questions early in this post..
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
|
从帖子中显示：
|
« 回到论坛
|
论坛切换：
|
 « 1 2
所有时间都是格林威治标准时间-05:00
|
»请检查你时候登入！
你不能在这个论坛内创建新线索。
你不能在这个论坛中回复。
你不能在这个论坛中投票。
你不能在这个论坛中编辑/删除你的帖子
|
|
管理员：
Liamjod
版主：
Liamjod, mekhala
|
|
主页
团体
