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alejandro canton-dutari
beigetreten: Oct 21, 2008
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Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 5, 2009 - 04:07 PM
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Right at this moment the UN is trying to get the Security Committee to reach a resolution concerning the ongoing Palestinian-Israeli conflict.
But, I would like to know if a conflict that is at least 2000 years old -- the Jewish community not being accepted by its neighbours -- will ever be solved.
What can really be done at the grassroots level?
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Dubbe
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Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 6, 2009 - 08:08 AM
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No, not any more, a truce will not even be a snake oil and these two will never ever be reconciled.
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alejandro canton-dutari
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Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 6, 2009 - 09:18 AM
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Mohamed:
I wonder if there is a constant "hidden message" in both Jewish and Muslim families where hate is instigated in children of both groups.
I am 3/4 Jewish, but my family has not practiced for generations, and we have learned to respect the existence of all our Human brothers. No derogaroty messages were ever transmitted.
I must remind that I live in Panama, which is completely multicultured, with people of all religions and races living side-by-side peacefully.
Do you really think that nothing can be done?
Thank you for your comment.
This post was edited on: 2009-01-06 at 09:19 AM by: alexcanton
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richard bekyi
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Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 6, 2009 - 09:23 AM
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yes, you know conflicts are always resolved when one party says it's okay. let bygones be bygones and understanding. for that matter if the leaders involved will with all respect put down their pride and the desire for power and revenge for what ever reason i don't know, there can be peace. leaders of the world should think about everybody and not themselves only, that can give us all peace all over the world. for that matter i say any conflict can be resolved, it's a conflict between humans not machines, we have conscience and reason. thank you
kobbie. ghana.
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alejandro canton-dutari
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Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 6, 2009 - 09:33 AM
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Richard: I am conviced that the future of world peace lies in the actions of the younger generation. Thank you.
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Saladin
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Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 6, 2009 - 10:19 AM
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Please allow me to be critical to the title you've chosen for this discussion:
Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
It is not an Arab-Jewish conflict. It's an Arab-Zionist conflict, that's more precise: Not all Jews are Israelis, and not all Israelis are Zionists.
Meanwhile, Jews lived in the Arab/Islamic world peacefully for centuries, until the creation of the state of Israel. Even though, there are still significant Jewish communities in predominantly Muslim countries such as Morocco, Tunisia, Iran, Yemen, and Turkey, nobody considers them as enemies.
When the Arabs conquered Spain in the 7th century, Jews were releaved from the prominent oppression they had to endure under the Christian rule of the Wisigoths. Moreover, when the Christian Reconquista drove off the Arabs from Spain, Jews could not live under the Inquisitions, and they migrated to a safer placE: the Ottoman Caliphate.
The Arab-Zionist conflict that is as recent as the 20th century should not lead you that there was a historical enmity between Arabs and Jews.
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alejandro canton-dutari
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Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 6, 2009 - 11:24 AM
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Carobnjak:
Yes, it is true that the belic-war conflict did start with the creation of the State of Israel in 1948. And having been established in the area was not welcome. In fact, there was the original possibility of being settled in Uganda or in Argentina.
I wonder if matters would have been different were the State of Israel have been set in either of these two countries.
We had the US in just 50 miles of my country for almost l00 years due to their constructing the Panama Canal. And the Panamanians hated every minute of it.
Perhaps it is a matter of people not liking their countries being "invaded" or "occuppied" by others.
And, you are right, it was the Zionist movement that decided on Palestine.
And by the same token, not all Jews are Israel citizens and vice-versa.
Thanks for your coments.
But, what can be done?
This post was edited on: 2009-01-06 at 11:25 AM by: alexcanton
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Saladin
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Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 10, 2009 - 05:21 PM
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What could be done?
Well, first both sides, Israel and Hamas should stop targeting civilians.
Then, the root causes of the conflicts should be examined, and actions should be taken accordingly.
The Palestinian factions should agree among themselves, under a National Unity Government, and stop fighting on lands they do not even control or possess.
Israel should withdraw from the lands it had occupied by military power: East Jerusalem, the West Bank, the Gaza strip, the Golan Heights, and the Chebaa Farms.
Illegal settlements in these lands should be dismantled, and illegal settlers should be given the choice for either an alternative resettlement inside the borders of Israel, or to live under a Palestinian state with equal rights.
The wall of separation should be dismantled from the West Bank; if Israelis see a need for such separation measures, they should be welcomed to build another wall, but on their own lands, and not in the middle of the West Bank.
The Palestinian people, including Palestinian refugees, should be given the right of self-determination, and should be granted the choice to return to their homeland. Even for those who wish to return to their native towns inside Israel, they should be granted that right, under equal Israeli citizenship rights.
The Middle East should be declared a WMD-Free Region; meaing that Israel should cease from possessing Nuclear Weapons, and that Iran should stop all attempts to produce WMDs.
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alejandro canton-dutari
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Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 10, 2009 - 09:55 PM
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Kobbie: Perhaps it is uthopian to think that leaders of the world will think as you and I seem to agree.
But I think that there should be a movement of young people putting their arms down and trying to reach out to each other positively. And it should start in either side, or perhaps from the outside.... Something like "youth of the world unite in bringing peace to the Middle East."
Thank you.
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Luke Lieberman
beigetreten: Feb 13, 2003
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Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 11, 2009 - 12:54 AM
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The attempt to creates two classes of Jewish people - 'zionists' and 'jews' is fundamentally flawed. This distinction has not originated from within Jewish culture - but rather people who support the Palestinians created this distinction.
I know many many jews and do not know any who designate themselves as 'zionist' or 'not zionist'.
Judiasm is a 5700 year story and if you believe in this story, and care about its people and their survival - ultimately you will support the idea that there is a country in the world Jews can rule themselves and fully express their own culture.
Furthermore - čarobnjak spoke of the Muslims lands jews lived peacefully in - but failed to mentioned that hundreds of thousands of them were forcibly expelled from these very countries in the 50's and 60's.
And that almost universally the charge of 'zionist' was used to strip these poeple of their rights.
Were the 250,000 Jews of Baghdad all 'zionist' conspirators? It seems that sometimes the muslim states have made no distinction between Jew and 'zionist'.
Is anyone offering them a 'right of return'?
I agree with basically everything čarobnjak said in terms of a final settlement - except the right of return. Israel is never going to allow potentially millions of Palestinians into Israel -
two many cafes have blown up.
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alejandro canton-dutari
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Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 11, 2009 - 08:52 AM
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Luke, if I recall history well, the Zionist movement was created, and Herzog led it towards Israel in the end. And as they were being introduced into Eretz Israel the world really referred to them not as Zionists but simply as Jews returning from the Diaspora... Anyway, at least in Panama, my fellow citizens do not know the difference between a Zionist Jew and a non-Zionist Jew.
But, on the other hand, you are right: no country wants to feel "invaded" by anyone and, as Carobnjak says, displaced.
But I still wonder how this conflict will ever be resolved, if ever.
Great comments!
This post was edited on: 2009-01-11 at 08:53 AM by: alexcanton
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Alex Rhoden
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Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 11, 2009 - 12:06 PM
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Many world conflicts and injustices are the historical Legacy of the great imperialist western powers forcing their will on weaker nations. This is the case in Israel, Panama,Cuba,Hawaii and the list goes on. The United States deserves much blame.In the case of Israel, The West forced the influx of European and Russian Jews into Palestine. This displaced the Palestinians. It is a documented fact that early Zionist Jews used terror tactics against the Arab population as well as against the British in those early days. This conflict could be resolved if the U.S. was an honest broker in the MiddleEast. The U.S. should stop it's 3 billion dollar (plus) weapons shipments to Israel. Israel is using U.S. Weapons to commit attrocities against a much weaker civilian population. The Palestinians use guerilla terror tactics because it's all they have against Israel's Goliath state of the art War Machine.
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Saladin
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Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 11, 2009 - 03:16 PM
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The attempt to creates two classes of Jewish people - 'zionists' and 'jews' is fundamentally flawed. This distinction has not originated from within Jewish culture - but rather people who support the Palestinians created this distinction.
I know many many jews and do not know any who designate themselves as 'zionist' or 'not zionist'.
Perhaps you should know about those Jews:
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/
http://www.nkusa.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Anti-Zionist_League
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Zionism
Those views are not the product of anything but Jewish Culture. Thos Jews have made their own choice to call themselves either non-Zionists or Anti-Zionists. I can provide many many documents to prove it, if you have any doubts.
Judiasm is a 5700 year story and if you believe in this story, and care about its people and their survival - ultimately you will support the idea that there is a country in the world Jews can rule themselves and fully express their own culture.
I highly admire the Jewish culture, and I put my voice alongside those Orthodox Jews, who believe in Judaism, and who care about the survival of the Jewish people, but who at the same time have serious concerns regarding the idea of establishing a country through the demographical transfer of an indigenous population.
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Saladin
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Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 11, 2009 - 03:18 PM
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Furthermore - čarobnjak spoke of the Muslims lands jews lived peacefully in - but failed to mentioned that hundreds of thousands of them were forcibly expelled from these very countries in the 50's and 60's.
Were the 250,000 Jews of Baghdad all 'zionist' conspirators? It seems that sometimes the muslim states have made no distinction between Jew and 'zionist'.
Is anyone offering them a 'right of return'?
This is one version of the story. Let's examine in start first. Both of us agree that a considerable proportion of the Jewish population in the Middle East were transferred to Palestine after the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. However, where they living peacefully before the establishment of that state? The answer is YES.
Meanwhile, whilst I admit that a considerable portion of Jews were forcibly expelled from their original Middle Eastern countries to Palestine, 750,000 Arab Palestinians were expelled from Palestine to Transjordan, Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon, all this only in 1948.
About the Jewish exodus from Arab countries to Palestine, you have to put this in light of the aims of the Zionist movements: The gathering of the World's Jewish Population in Palestine. To achieve such an aim, taking Egypt as an example, the Zionist movement has organised attacks against Jewish and Pro-Jewish targets in Egypt, in the hopes that other local factions would be blamed, so as to deliver to the local Jewish population the sense that they are not safe except in Israel. This became known in Egypt as the Lavon Affair.
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Saladin
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Re: Will the Arab-Jewish conflict ever be resolved?
January 11, 2009 - 03:25 PM
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However, the reactions of Arab regimes and socieities regarding these terrorist acts were unproportioned. First, instead of punishing the Zionist perpetrators, and being aware of that Zionist vs Non/Anti Zionist distinction, Jews of the Middle East were punished collectively. Second, by expelling those hundreds of thousands of Jews, who later migrated to Palestine, the Arab regimes did to the Zionist movement the greatest ever favor: Transferring more Jews into the Promised Land. In that context, Zionists should be thankful to the Arab regimes...
And yes, if we are demanding the right of return to the Palestinians, those Jews who were forcibly expelled from their native countries should have the same right, and should enjoy equal citizenship rights under their respective governments.
The question is, however, will those Jews who were "forcibly expelled" from Iraq, for example, wish to return to Baghdad, even if they were to enjoy equal citizenship rights? I doubt.
I agree with basically everything čarobnjak said in terms of a final settlement - except the right of return. Israel is never going to allow potentially millions of Palestinians into Israel -
two many cafes have blown up.
Luke, Arab Palestinians make 20% of the number of Israeli citizens. That's roughly 1.2 million people. They do not obviously wander in the streets and blow up cafes. The interesting thing is that there are current debates in Israel about the threat to the Jewish Identity of Israel imposed by the large demographic growth rate of the Arab population within Israel.
As such, Israel will of course not even think of allowing a single Palestinian from outside the Green Line into Israel, out of fear that the "Jewish" nature of Israel would be demographically challenged, and hardly out of fear of suicide attacks.
If you consider that the 250,000 Jews who were expelled from Baghdad were not all Zionist conspirators, then by the same token, do not attempt to say that those millions of Palestinians refugees are ready to blow up cafes. Even if they were, why would they do so if you grant them the right of return? Any idea?
The fear that Arab population might disparage the Jewish Identity of Israel puts a tough question:
Is Israel, being the Oasis of Democracy in the Middle East, a disclosed country for Jews, or for all of its citizens?
Regards,
Ayman
This post was edited on: 2009-01-11 at 03:55 PM by: aymanelhakea
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