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Liam O'Doherty
Joined: Dec 13, 2008
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Gaza
December 30, 2008 - 11:39 AM
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The West bank has erupted in violence with both Israeli and Palestinian forces responding to attacks with more violence.
How can we take effective action to show solidarity with the people in the region and support non-violent methods of resolving this conflict?
There is a petition at http://petitions.tigweb.org/Westbank?signedpetition=422467096
News resources:
http://www.theage.com.au/world/un-slams-israeli-approach-as-us-defends-its-ally-20081230-77dn.html
http://news.google.ca/news?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&hl=en&resnum=1&nolr=1&q=gaza+&btnG=Search+News
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Alex Rhoden
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Re: Gaza
December 30, 2008 - 03:24 PM
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The United States has been supporting Israel to the tune of almost 3 Billion dollars a year,mostly in the form of military weaponry. The United States has allowed Israel to illegaly occupy the Palestinian territories as well as blockade it. By not allowing Palestinians a means to self sufficiency and dignity,the United States will ensure that there is no peace. Pregnant Palestinian women have a right to medical access,but are denied access. Israel has had it's Jackboot on the necks of Palestinians for years while the United States gives their complete support. If the AIPAC lobby where stopped from dictating America's foreign policy,we might get on the road a peace settlement.
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Fi McKenzie
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Re: Gaza
January 2, 2009 - 12:36 AM
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Thanks for the petition link Liam! Spread the word.
I think blaming this on the US might be taking it too far, there are a few other players that don't exactly help the ongoing conflict between Israel and Hamas. By looking to the US, you take responsibility for their own actions away from Israel and even Hamas, who may not have deserved this extreme attack but who put the lives of civilians in danger through their actions.
I was talking about this with a friend last night and we were trying to come up with a "third solution". Israel could chose to:
a) take the current action, with mass loss of life
b) do nothing, and continue to live with rockets from Palestine
c) . . .
Diplomatic solutions to this conflict have been lengthy and have never led to any full resolution that has stayed the distance.
Third solutions anyone? Would really like to hear from someone in Gaza on this . . .
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attempting to live a life less ordinary (whatever that may mean)
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Maged Hassan
Joined: Jul 12, 2003
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Re: Gaza
January 2, 2009 - 09:19 AM
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A third solution could be that Israel withdraws from the Palestinian lands it has been occupying for 41 years now (while on the ground it's doing the quite opposite - expanding it's settlements here and there in the West bank).
I don't understand why you need to muse over who's responsible and to try your best to find objectivity. It's definitely those who sent these F 16s to bombard the most crowded piece of land on Earth. The same land that has been under seige for more than 2 years now. Sinking in poverty and poor health status.
It's to be remembered that Hamas came into power through elections in 2006 and the first reaction of Israel was kidnapping tens of Hamas ministers and Parliamentaries.
This aggression is not a response to the rockets falling on South Israel last week. It was prepared for since signing the truce 6 months ago. This is not a fabrication or hallucination from my side - I read that in Ha'aretz.
ANd finally, the point I want to make is that I cann't assimilate dividing the resposibility between Israel and Hamas because this implies a draft of thical pretext to the massacre going on for 7 days and the whole ordeal in Gaza!
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Ana
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Re: Gaza
January 2, 2009 - 02:48 PM
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I think no matter what one's opinion is regardind who (Israelis / Palestinians) is more responsible for this situation, the fact is that this is a question of Human Rights. None should have to live under blockade deprived of necessities of life.
The bombs when don't destroy the houses, break the glass of the windows, and the blockade provides that there is no glass to replace the windows..nor enough medicines,nor medical equipment and personel to treat the numerous people injured by the bombings.
And that is just unacceptable.
I just wish we could do something more than signining petitions and going to demonstrations..
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Adham Khalil
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Re: Gaza
January 2, 2009 - 06:33 PM
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Dear all ,
it is not true to say " war between hamas and israel .... it is Israeli terrorist occupation that have invaded and occupied Palestine since 1948 .. I am eyewitness from Gaza , u may think that Hamas is a counry has powerfull and great army , it is lies , hamas and othere factions are trying to defend palestinians from the continuing masacres ,invasions,airstrikes . hey , Palestinian factions do not own tanks,warplanes ,warships and rockets ... they have homemade missiles , minds and simple weapons , they cannot do anything against israeli great powerfull army , I think it is away to act our reaction to Israeli agressions and masacres against Palestinian civilians.what are u waiting from Palestinians who live under complete siege , dailly killed and their houses destroyed .
Are you waiting them to smile and thank Israelis ?!
Human who keep sillent of Israeli masacres and Holocost against Palestinian is main part of it .
This post was edited on: 2009-01-02 at 06:38 PM by: nagyelali
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Adham Khalil
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Re: Gaza
January 2, 2009 - 06:39 PM
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UN: Israel committing "wanton aggression" in the Gaza Strip
Date: 30 / 12 / 2008 Time: 23:46
Aftermath of an Israeli airstrike on 27
Dec. in the Gaza Strip [Ma'anImages]
New York - Ma'an/UN - The behavior by Israel in bombarding Gaza is simply the commission of wanton aggression by a very powerful state against a territory that it illegally occupies.
Time has come to take firm action if the United Nations does not want to be rightly accused of complicity by omission.
The Israeli airstrikes on the Gaza Strip represent severe and massive violations of international humanitarian law as defined in the Geneva Conventions, both in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war.
Those violations include:
Collective punishment - The entire 1.5 million people who live in the crowded Gaza Strip are being punished for the actions of a few militants.
Targeting civilians - The airstrikes were aimed at civilian areas in one of the most crowded stretches of land in the world, certainly the most densely populated area of the Middle East.
Disproportionate military response - The airstrikes have not only destroyed every police and security office of Gaza's elected government, but have killed and injured hundreds of civilians; at least one strike reportedly hit groups of students attempting to find transportation home from a university.
I remind all member states of the United Nations that the UN continues to be bound to an independent obligation to protect any civilian population facing massive violations of international humanitarian law - regardless of what country may be responsible for those violations.
I call on all member states, as well as officials and every relevant organ of the United Nations system, to move expeditiously not only to condemn Israel's serious violations, but to develop new approaches to providing real protection for the Palestinian people.
***H.E. Mr. Miguel d'Escoto Brockmann is president of the 63rd session of the United Nations General Assembly. He issued this statement at UN Headquarters in New York on 27 December 2008.
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Alex Rhoden
Joined: Oct 23, 2002
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Re: Gaza
January 4, 2009 - 08:29 PM
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Adham is right...UN: Israel committing "wanton aggression" in the Gaza Strip
Date: 30 / 12 / 2008 Time: 23:46
The United Nations vote was unanimous in it's condemnation of the Israeli massacre Except for ONE nation that voted to block it...The United States was the only nation to vote against the entire world in favor of the Israeli aggression. If you look at the U.S. voting record on all previous votes condeming Israeli aggression you will find it ALWAYS sides with Israel. The U.S. could withhold the 3 billion dollars per year in weapons or take Israel to task for it's nuclear and bio-chemical weapons stockpile which is also illegal...but it will not. The United States is a DISHONEST broker in the MiddleEast and will continue to be as long as the Israeli Lobby (AIPAC) controls our foreign policy.
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Alex Rhoden
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Re: Gaza
January 6, 2009 - 06:21 PM
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One of Israel's "founding fathers" once said,"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves...politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves...The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. -- David Ben Gurion, from a 1938 speech... Now we can stop debating who started this horrific human rights attrocity. If Israel allows all Palestinians the right of return and gives reparations to the families of all Palestinians massacred in previous Israeli invasions, maybe we can resolve this bloodbath. Israel needs to do the right thing for once....Israel needs to get on the right side of history.
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siddiqua
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Re: Gaza
January 6, 2009 - 11:41 PM
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Its time for the world to formally recognize that Israel had begun and is escalating the violence. Hugo Chavez is probably the only world leader to have expelled its Israeli ambassador over the Gaza bloodshed.
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Saladin
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Re: Gaza
January 9, 2009 - 06:32 PM
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While I fully understand the terror felt by the population of southern Israel under the random and amateurish rocket attacks from the Gaza strip, I still have serious concerns on the way the international community is blind towards this collective punishment and unprecedented injustice taking place in Palestine.
Successive Israeli governments have been doing their best to implant and expand illegal settlements on lands that were occupied by military power, a land initially home to an indigenous Palestinian population.
Lately, the Israeli government constructed the new aparthied wall under the pretext of "protecting Israel from suicide bombers intruding from the Palestinian occupied territories of the West Bank". My question is, if you want to protect your citizens from suicide attacks, why do you construct the wall in the middle of the West Bank? Why don't you build it along the Green Line, on your own land?
The serpentation of the wall to include the illegal Israeli settlements of the West Bank into Israel's mainland, as well as its separation of the Palestinian major populations of the West Bank are two evident objectives of this new wall.
Now the Palestinians are using rockets; the wall does not really seem to protect Israeli citizens. Peace is hardly built by constructing separation walls.
This post was edited on: 2009-01-09 at 06:38 PM by: aymanelhakea
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Gaza
January 10, 2009 - 08:49 PM
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To the party who suggested that Israel withdraw from occupied territories as a third option - I think that was the process that was begun when Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. However it did not stop the rocket fire, rather the opposite. The experience has not encouraged further territorial concessions. Basically Israel left Gaza and it turned into a Hamas stronghold which routinely threatened the south of Israel.
Now they are looking at the West bank and realizing that if they pulled out and Hamas took over Jerusalem and Tel Aviv would be getting hit with rockets.
What is amazing to me is that Hamas simply does not care about the people of Gaza. If they did they would never have provoked the conflict and they certainly would not now be trying to draw the IDF deeper into the cities now.
Even as Gaza crumbles around their ears they refuse to stop firing rockets - which clearly do nothing to protect Gazans - and bring an end to the conflict.
Instead I see articles on Al Jazeera with Hamas leaders declaring from the comfort of Damascus that they will never surrender and not agree to any ceasefire which includes an end to rocket fire.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200918155333111890.html
Abu Marzouq: We have three conditions for any peace initiative coming from any state.
First, the aggression of the Israelis should stop. All of the gates should be opened, including the gate of Rafah between the Gaza Strip and Egypt. Finally, Israel has to withdraw from the Gaza Strip.
We are not saying we will stop firing rockets from the Gaza Strip to Israel - we are only talking about stopping the aggression from the Israelis against the civilian population in the Gaza Strip."
Is this guy kidding? he wants Israel to back off but WON'T agree to stop the rockets. Hamas is getting it arse handed to them. Israel has lost only 8 soldiers - half from friendly fire - in two weeks, meanwhile Hamas is losing fighters by the hundreds. That is a whuppin'
Frankly I am amazed that for all their bravado Hamas was this ill prepared and yet at the same time this willing to risk the lives of ordinary civilians.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Gaza
January 10, 2009 - 08:49 PM
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No one here spoke of the other party to this conflict - Iran, they have been arming Hamas, like Hezbullah and use them both as proxies to distract Israel while they continue on their nuclear program.
Iran has regional ambitions and sees war with Israel as key to achieving them - which is why they act as a spoiler to any movement toward peace.
Finally - to those serious about peace, get real and drop the posturing.
Alex, bro that whole line about Israel controlling US foreign policy is so tired and prepackaged, it lacks any real depth.
Everyone knows what the final parameters of peace basically look like - pretty close to what Clinton put forward. A majority on both sides would agree to the compromise - the trouble is getting from here to there.
Alex - if you are serious about a peace settlement then open your eyes. Hamas is not interested in peace - they want Israel destroyed, and they are so fanatical about it they don't care who gets hurt.
This line they feed western liberals like yourself - that they are fighting occupation - is bull - they see ending the occupation of Gaza and the west bank as the first step toward a larger goal - and the Israelis are well aware of that larger goal.
It is evidenced by the fact that when the occupation of Gaza ended in 2005 within a week they were firing rockets.
predictably you will come back saying the rockets are in response to the siege - but there was no siege in 2005, and the rockets came anyway.
If you want peace then you will protest not only when Israel reacts to the bombardment of its cities by tearing into Gaza - but you will protest in the first instance when Hamas begins its rocket attacks, or when it takes Gaza by force and throws Fatah men off buildings and shoots them in the street - because you will understand that these rockets make peace impossible and invite response.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Gaza
January 10, 2009 - 08:50 PM
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You said Hamas won legitimate elections - fair enough - 3 questions
1 - do you think there is any chance they would allow new free elections in Gaza now? If not how can they maintain democratic legitimacy?
2 - if Bin Laden was elected in Canada tomorrow and declared his intention of destroying the United States, then started firing missiles at us - how would you expect our government to react?
3 - Since the elections Hamas has fought a civil war with Fatah culminating in a bloody coup of Gaza AND fought with Egyptian security AND fired rockets routinely into Israel provoking the current war.
At what point do they stop becoming the victim and start becoming responsible for their own situation?
They have failed diplomatically with Fatah and Egypt. They have refused to attempt diplomatic engagement with Israel - impossible if they are unwilling to recognize its right to exist -
Instead they have declared never ending war on a neighbor they depend on for water, power and food.
How is Hamas not criminally responsible for neglecting the interests of the citizens they purport to democratically represent?
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Alex Rhoden
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Re: Gaza
January 11, 2009 - 12:46 AM
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Luke "Lieberman" is famous for his habit of hogging the debate as is apparent by his 3 in a row postings which goes against TIG rules.Lieberman also forgets that the core of this Israeli Palestinian conflict was started by Israel's ILLEGAL occupation of Palestinian land. Israel's Use of overwhelming force,Jet Fighters,Tanks and destroyers at sea against a civilian population shows Israel for what it is. Look at the casualty statistics throughout ALL the conflict's history and you will note that thousands more Palestinians have died while very few Israelis have suffered casualties. Israel blockaded Gaza for months before invading. The effect of the blockade was to keep food, medicine, commerce to at a standstill while maximizing the suffering of the Palestinians. I have been to both countries. Israel has flourished while keeping Palestinians in primitive third world state under it's oppression. Gaza is in rubble and many innocent women and children are dead because Israel chose collective punishment and overwhelming cruelty. Shame on them.
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