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tim
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sex before marriage
August 19, 2003 - 11:50 AM
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of course it's not at all popular in our society to wait until marriage to have sex with your significant other, then again we should all think for ourselves and not just do the popular thing. I think sex should wait until marriage. You might say, why wait? To me, it seems more special, especially if you are both virgins, and plus the honeymoon would be all the more exciting. first of all, i feel that sex is the strongest point (at least physically) of a romantic relationship. i don't feel that we should waste that powerful love with a person whom we've dated for a couple months, especially if we don't know for sure that they will be our spouse in the future. marriage is the strongest point of commitment in a romantic relationship, so it just seems that sex should wait for its action until marriage comes along to shake its hand. to save your virginity for the one whom you marry is, i believe, saying "i love you" in one of the most powerful ways. what do you think?
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Ben Rice
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Re: sex before marriage
August 20, 2003 - 02:55 AM
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luke...
did you give that pompous and ridiculously immature response more than two seconds thought? Your quick reply must have missed something....listen closely and i'll fill you in....
let's say that two "non-virgins" marry and have significant experience...sexual of course...they enjoy each other as they always have and of course there is a new element to the relationship in marraige. But they get bored, for really the only difference in marraige and their head-strong dating relationship is that now they live together under the roof of binding commitment. Pretty exciting? not in the physical level. you see for nothing was saved and therefore nothing changed, and boredom may (definitely not always-i'm not that subjective) set in.
Now, two virgins marry....and i believe you said something along the virtuous lines of "hell no. that's like telling a blind person to pick out their favorite color." (something like that)
But here's the beautiful picture you missed. You see, in this story the couple has yet to experience one of the greatest creations in life, and yes, they have no experience or expertise. But the catch is that they have the rest of their lives to get better with each other, and the kicker is that the element of marriage brings upon a whole new level of newness and commitment void in the previous story.
Now of course these are theoretical situations, but i hope you may have slowed down enough to see my point. First of all, if a blind person was to pick out a color, they would be no more satisfied with black than blue, for they had no prior knowledge or experience with picking a favorite color(wonderful example though). Next time don't be so quick to a shallow response. Think about it and give the one who posted the thread a little more respect. Of course if that fits into your seemingly busy mental operation.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: sex before marriage
August 20, 2003 - 03:20 AM
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I'm sorry Wallflower - I'm just not as smart as you are - obviously you are a person of vast relationship experience - you're right!
People should make the biggest commitment of their lives without knowing their partners sexually and intimately and understanding how that alters a relationship. The really smart thing to do is promise your life to someone that you don't really know that well because you have not experienced the emotional revelations that coincide with physical intimacy.
I was under the false notion that I should know exactly what I was getting into when I walked down the aisle.
I should just hope on the wedding night that we have physical chemistry - and that the chemistry will last over time - that we will never get bored
- I suppose I could figure that out ahead of time by having a sexual relationship for a few years before marriage - thereby truly knowing that our sexual relationship can survive over time - but that's just stupid.
I was also under the ridiculous impression that there are plenty of new life elements besides sex added by entering into marriage - such as - say children. Rearing children is generally saved for marriage.
I was obviously a complete fool and I needed your patronizing remarks and inane insight to help me see the light.
You know what the real kicker is wallflower - while you sit there in your repressed celibacy trying to attract a mate - I could steal your woman right out from under you because I know what I'm doing - I know how to please a woman - and you don't - I have the comfort and confidence in dealing with women that comes from sexual experience.
I wish I could be like you and feel soooooo rightous about my inability to attract women - but I am too busy experiencing them and learning about them.
I can't wait for your reply!
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Ben Rice
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Re: sex before marriage
August 20, 2003 - 03:58 AM
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luke
first of all, i was neither criticizing a lifestyle you so eagerly informed us about, nor was i trying to say one way is better than the other. No, the point in my reply was to think deeper before offering such short and shallow responses. Your response to the thread showed no thought whatsoever, and to that i made my response. One of the greatest tools in life is communication, and from that debate. It is not therefore an argument of challenging diction or self-righteous claims, but rather an opportunity to consider, discuss, and to think. I was attempting to paint a situation you may not have considered. Not to promote one or another, but just the point of considering.
With that said, i make no judgements upon your own lifestyle, for i am just another human being trying to make it in this world like yourself. But the red flag flying at me from your response was your complete and total defense was that of sexual pleasure, sexual intimacy, sexual expertise, sexual experience, etc. etc.....This seems a little out of proportion in the building blocks of marriage. My concern is....is that what if for some reason your mate could not perform sexual actions, and could not be sexually intimate? I am not questioning your relationship, and frankly, i hope its wonderful, but i hope you see that the only thing you claimed for the strength of your marraige was the one thing that should be the "icing" for the entire cake. The one thing you bragged so viciously was about your physical knowledge and enjoyment, rather than the time spent with the opposite person. You see, the physical things will change, but the inner beauty of a person will not, and that should be the sole reason and center block of love. Your monotonous claims of sexual magnitude seemed a bit like over-compensating for an event i spent zero time criticizing. The point i was trying to make was that the sexual things should be the least important in the scope of the entire relationship. But i'm not saying that they cannot be the most enjoyable thing you will ever experience.
Also, your immature and arrogant remarks about a life of celibacy and a "struggle for women" seemed a bit over-defensive and reaching. First of all, you don't know me from anywhere, and i raise one simple question, which was designed only to get you to think, and your defense mechanisms go into high gear like a three year old convicted of eating chocolate cake while he tries to deny it with crumbs still visible upon his mouth. This example is strong, i know, but if you have to resort to competitive means to make yourself feel secure about your own choices, which i did not directly criticize, then it says alot about yourself, and your alleged wonderful relationships.
My point Luke, is that you missed mine. A successful producer like yourself should not have to resort to childish high-schoolish remarks of "if you had a girl, i'd steal her....blah blah." Those remarks i would not expect from a seemingly happy man with a professed wonderful and exceedingly happy relationship. No, he would be confident enough to handle the remarks of a mere nineteen year old.
Again, i wanted you to think. Sex should not be the most important thing in a relationship, not that you said it was, but it shouldn't be. It can change. But the person you fell in love with will not. The person you spent two years practicing a healthy sexual life with, hopefully experienced the same efforts on the emotional, and interpersonal aspects of the relationship as well. For the latter will be what lasts forever as you continue to spend time loving the person you first fell in love with.
I hope you have seen my point and understood my efforts.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: sex before marriage
August 20, 2003 - 05:42 AM
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No - I'm sorry brother but you were not making the innocent remarks you think you were - I'll quote you -
"Now of course these are theoretical situations, but i hope you may have slowed down enough to see my point."
"listen closely and i'll fill you in...."
- these were sarcastic and antagonistic remarks - so while you may proclaim to be this level-headed, well-meaner who just wants to "get me to think" - in reality you insulted my intelligence.
There is nothing defensive about my comments - rather they were offensive - and I challenge you to reply to the points I made rather than taking the cowards way out by attacking the speaker
Physical imtimacy and "time spent with the opposite person" are the same thing. The point you missed is that through intimacy you gain a deeper knowledge of your partner - there exists a certain level of knowledge that can only truly be understood without words but through your other senses - through your 'inner-eye'.
By the way - I'm not in a relationship right now - just dating a few lovely ladies -
Now - understand that sexual intimacy is exceedingly important at the beginning of a relationship - after a solid emotional foundation has been laid using sex as a tool toward that end - the physical act of love becomes less important - but that is down the road. Certainly as a relationship begins sex provides an emotional pique and reveals vulnerabilities that uncover your partners true self - it leaves nowhere to hide.
Anyway - I think plenty deep about my reponses and if they are not a page long its because they do not need to be - getting married without sexual experience is like a blind person choosing their favorite color - that sums up my arguement perfectly - why go to all the trouble of spelling it out? Think about what I wrote before calling it shallow - "bevity is the soul of wit"
Oh - and I don't consider anyone a "mere 19 year old' that's patronizing - stand on your writings - I don't care how old you are.
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tim
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Re: sex before marriage
August 20, 2003 - 06:17 AM
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i love what Myne had to say, that sexual intercourse is not only physical but spiritual as well. that is what i find to be very amazing about sex: the fact that once you have experienced it, the two of you are one. you have shared something so incredibly intimate with one another, and not only your bodies are connected intimately, but your spirits as well. this point that Myne has brought up only supports my desire to wait until marriage for sex. One does not know for sure that the person he/she is dating will be the one that they marry (and i should add that i believe marriage is a lifelong thing, which is such a strong commitment of love that it blows my mind: for the other person to some times get on your nerves so terribly bad (living together defeinitely provides conflicts, no?)yet you still love them with all your heart and learn to share your life with them through the difficulties) Since one doesn't know that their significant other will be their spouse, i don't think it is smart to be so intimate with each other. it seems to me like you are selling yourself out. after multiple dating relationships that involved sex, you look back upon them and realize that you just shared your spirit, YOUR SPIRIT, with each one of them. now, on your honeymoon night, it is not as special to your spouse because you have already allowed others to share in that intimacy as well. not that it can't be special, but to remain a virgin i believe is an ultimate gift of love to your spouse, to tell your spouse that you saved your intimacy for the one whom you would love more than anyone else in the world is, i believe, true love. and that reminds me of a comment i read concerning true love...
- I could steal your woman right out from under you because I know what I'm doing -
This was said by an individual named Luke, and quite frankly, it saddens me that a guy would treat a girl as if she was property in which can be bought, sold, and stolen. I believe with all my heart that this is not true love, and no one should make such extremely vulgar comments that are so hateful against another human being, the female race, and simply the amazing gift of love in general. I for one choose to stand up against the popular thing of this world and will commit to save my virginity for the one i choose to marry. i believe this is true love. and by no means am i saying that my marriage will revolve around sex, for everything in this world looses its newness at one time or another and there are so many other things within marriage that makes it complete. but i believe sex is the starting point of that completion. you walked down the aisle, you made your vowels to one another, you give each other the most intimate gift you could possibly offer, and through the trials and storms, it's true love that carries you through. i think the true love of marriage to your future spouse starts now, by saving your sex. what do you think?
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Myne
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Re: sex before marriage
August 20, 2003 - 06:41 AM
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Hey guys,
i perceive this trend is getting a bit personal and that shouldn't be. We have various opinions and should be open and flexible enough to learn fronm each other.
I personally agree with the notion that Ubono2carpediem raised. I believe and strongly advocate that sex should wait till after marriage, though it is not popular in our society and generation at large. However, if we take time to closely examine, think and weigh our actions, we'll discover that there is so much more to the issue we so casually handle and dismiss.
The act of intercourse carries more than the physical connection, it involves a spiritual link too.
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Myne
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Hey Hey!!!
August 20, 2003 - 06:42 AM
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Hey guys,
i perceive this trend is getting a bit personal and that shouldn't be. We have various opinions and should be open and flexible enough to learn fronm each other.
I personally agree with the notion that Ubono2carpediem raised. I believe and strongly advocate that sex should wait till after marriage, though it is not popular in our society and generation at large. However, if we take time to closely examine, think and weigh our actions, we'll discover that there is so much more to the issue we so casually handle and dismiss.
The act of intercourse carries more than the physical connection, it involves a spiritual link too.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: sex before marriage
August 20, 2003 - 06:45 AM
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I think you are talking about sex like you know what it entails "spirits entwined" "two people become one" when you clearly don't know anything about sex as you have no experience with it. Have you been in love before? How can you claim to know what true love is?
You see when I meet my lifepartner I want them to have experience and truly know themselves and what they want out of a relationship - I want to know that they are choosing me - not because they don't know any better, but because they have loved and lost, have been through heartache and pain - extacy - the whole gambit and in the end they have chosen me because I am better for them then the rest - their choice is an educated discision.
Also I want you to think how much you are limiting yourself - how difficult it will be to find a girl who is a virgin and how much of the population you are cancelling out of your search before you even start it.
There are soooooo many wonderful, soulfull, intelligent beautiful women that are NOT virgins - you just want to ignore them? One of them might be perfect for you in so many ways that are so much more important than whether you are their first time.
Your preacher sure did a job on you - you have this intersting naivete' regarding it all.
I love how some people thing that denying yourself something natural somehow makes them superior.
Your absolutely right - the person you are dating will probably not be the one you marry - but so what? Love is free - you are not going to run out of it - and love is the most beautiful thing in the world - I have been in love three times and each time taught me something new about myself and other people - each one made me grow as a person.
And guess what - I'm not out of love I still have more to give and my next serious relationship will not suffer because of my past experiences but rather benefit from the wisdom that they have given me.
So guys are simply so backward on the concept of romance its lame.
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Lev
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Re: sex before marriage
August 20, 2003 - 08:24 AM
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Luke, I find a lot written between your lines. The original posts don't sound superior or arrogant, they sound curious. This was a respectful discussion at first, but you got upset. North America is rife with the kind of sensitivity that I detect from you, the discomfort with an alternate point of view; it's ironic, but in your defense of a sort of 'free-love' philosophy (one that I personally agree with) you come across as no more tactful than the conservative, repressive and 'naive' bogeyman that you seem to be intent on finding in the previous posts.
Relax, man.
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Sunny Yeung
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Re: sex before marriage
August 20, 2003 - 09:43 AM
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I think so, because it dictates it in the Bible. Unfortunately, we have people like Sigmund Freud and others who think that sex should not be saved for marriage. Of course, we don't have pious people around anymore, and with the existence of pornography and its accessibility, it's hard for even the most moral person to restrain his sexual desires.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: sex before marriage
August 20, 2003 - 09:50 AM
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who is trying to be tactful? That was not my intention - if there was any question as to whether I was out and out blasting Wallflower I must have done something wrong - but this is all fun and games to me - I'm not personally effected Vagabond - no worries.
any way to all you poor souls who are denying yourselves one of lifes greatest wonders for some antiquated religious dictates - I feel sorry for you.
peace - I'm done with this post.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: sex before marriage
August 20, 2003 - 12:10 PM
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Uhhhh - hell NO!
Getting married with out any sexual experience is like a blind person picking their favorite color.
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Hannah Pappenheim
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Re: sex before marriage
August 21, 2003 - 03:18 AM
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wow, i just started reading this thread, and i hesitate to reply in the event that i get my head torn off by someone!! However, i decided to give it a go, and just want to say now that i REALLY dont mean to offend anyone. having said that...
i dont believe that it is necessary to wait until after marriage for sex. my reason is not that i want to be able to go out and make love to whoever i want. in the past, marriage was not just a certificate and big white dress, it was a commitment. therefor, it would make sense to say that you should wait for that level of commitment to have sex. now, however, i believe that marriage is on a downfall. people dont take it seriously(at least in the U.S). here in the u s of a we have a 50% divorce rate. and 44% of men, 25% of women, cheat on their spouses. because of this, i no longer look towards marriage as an indication on commitment and maturity in a relationship. i think it is more important to use your own head, not the ideals of your church or family, to decide what is best for you. consider your "significant other", your situation, and the motives for having a sexual relationship. yes, i take sex VERY seriously, perhaps more seriously than many take marriage
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Ben Rice
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Re: sex before marriage
August 21, 2003 - 05:28 AM
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hannahbear
yes, this is a very interesting thread, and it's wonderful to see it pick up and go, and to see the various responses.
well, i guess i will start my reply as you did yours by saying that i in no way am trying to offend you. i have no desire really to discuss whether or whether not you believe in sex before or after, but rather your reasoning. You were right in noticing the intensity of this thread, but i for myself was not out to condemn anothers beliefs, but rather to discuss their thinking patterns. now, you said you didn't beleive necessarily in waiting for sex in marraige. Thats fine and completely your own decision. But your reasonings were that although marraige is an important sanction, it is not however as important today because of the usa's divorce rates, etc. therefore, if it wasn't for the trend of dwindling marital importance, you might consider sanctioning sex before marraige a little more. if i have interpreted this correctly, it seems as though you are just too discouraged by the world's ways of dragging sex and marraige through the mud to wait for sex in marraige. like i said before, i'm not questioning your decision to wait or not, but rather your reason for either choice. You see for no matter how much i may agree with you in discussing the world's carelessness concerning marraige and sex, the usa specifically for this thread, it all comes down to a personal decision. For no matter how the world may misuse an item, the decision to use or misuse the same item should be made upon your own turf with your own ideals and hopeful, independent ways of thinking. i for one am just as discouraged as you are in dealing with relationships and what the world has done with them, but we must make our own choices with our own reasons, and break the trends we are so disgusted with. So if you choose to have sexual relations before marraige, fine. just consider breaking the reasons behind the choices. Don't follow a cycle you are so tired of.
Again, i mean not to offend, but to discuss. I hope i haven't read into your response too deeply. I hope i encouraged more than i offended. But i look forward to your response and the responses of others in dealing with this subject.
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